Re: Adam Goodes

[Willo]

You haven't been paying attention.

Our club, RFC, stated unequivocally, that when people were booing Adam Goodes, Shane Edwards and Nathan Drummond felt that they were being booed as well.

That was part of the reason for us playing in the dreamtime jumper on Friday night.

Well obviously I havent. As I said and you quoted I was unaware of any other indigenous players needing support. Didn't I say just that?

 

[Willo]

OK. So why did you bring it up?

I didn't mention anything about an equal ledger.
You and tigersnake brought it up
Go back and reread.

 

[Rosy]

No it's not. It's a simple question.

........

I wasn't referring to your question. I think it's pretty clear I was referring to you pigeon holing willo as non-Indigenous.

 

[bruntonave.]

As I have explained multiple times brunton I think the pretend spearing was barbaric. Not once in that quote you keep referring to have I mentioned the word dance. I referred to one component of what he did as being barbaric. I also said I'd feel the same if the tables were tuned and someone acted out ancient acts of violence against Adam. You are deliberately misrepresenting what I actually said. The first time fair enough but after having had explained what I meant multiple times it's obvious you're doing it deliberately.

OK. So I've misunderstood you, only part of the dance was barbaric.

So where were we?

 

[bruntonave.]

I wasn't referring to your question. I think it's pretty clear I was referring to you pigeon holing willo as non-Indigenous.

This whole thing is about the relationship between indigenous and non-indigenous australians.

If he is indigenous, fine.

The question remains.

 

[tigersnake]

What a load of cobblers.
Implication it was an equal ledger? Geez give me break. What, do think I was counting the numbers and saying that was equal? Which is bs and you both know it. Either that or a lack of comprehension.
Or that atrocities weren't committed by both black and white. Which there were. History proves that.

If it was "pointless" why bother to comment. Just another snide remark, the same as "Taking the p!ss" or I don't know what I'm talking about eh? I notice you couldn't refute what I said, so just chip away.

Refusing to answer yes or no (wasn't addressed to you by the way) is "another example of a half truth" . In reality is just a cop out when you don't want to answer something so It's just a space filler.

History proves a lot of things. If only you would read and understand it. We could all get somewhere. People don't want to know. I've refuted your reactionary *smile*, (thats snide I guess), here and in past long discussions on Indigenous people on PRE, piece by piece, point by point. It makes zero difference.

It may not have been addressed at me, but I could read it princess. It was the textbook example of a half truth.

 

[Rosy]

....... princess. ........

Getting very weird indeed.

 

[tigersnake]

Getting very weird indeed.

Come on rosy, 'not addressed at you?' really? How does PRE work again? Its not a peep show, its a bar! People can get all precious when things aren't going their way.

 

[Coburgtiger]

As I have explained multiple times brunton I think the pretend spearing was barbaric. Not once in that quote you keep referring to have I mentioned the word dance. I referred to one component of what he did as being barbaric. I also said I'd feel the same if the tables were tuned and someone acted out ancient acts of violence against Adam. You are deliberately misrepresenting what I actually said. The first time fair enough but after having had explained what I meant multiple times it's obvious you're doing it deliberately.

How on earth is throwing a pretend spear in a goal celebration during indigenous round barbaric?

Was this barbaric?

Or this?

 

[Rosy]

Come on rosy, 'not addressed at you?' really? How does PRE work again? Its not a peep show, its a bar! People can get all precious when things aren't going their way.

So you address men in a bar as "princess"? :hihi

How are things not going soemone's way? Not sure what you mean by that.

 

[Tommy H]

Great to see Adam coming back this week to play. But I honestly would like to see once the finals start in several weeks whether the issue will erupt again once the initial plea for calm dies away. Judging from social media there is still a great level of angst over the issue and the distinct actions of the AFL to come in and tell the general public what to do. I don't think this story has finished yet unfortunately.

 

[AngryAnt]

Chip Le Grand had a story that the AFL commission is split on this. Discussed by Patrick and KB last this morning.


This is why the official AFL statement last week was very weak, and why the clubs and players took things into their own hands this weekend, (and good on 'em).

Love or hate Domestos, he wouldn't have stood for it.

 

[Rosy]

How on earth is throwing a pretend spear in a goal celebration during indigenous round barbaric?

Was this barbaric?
.......

"Celebration" is one term. "Meant to intimidate" was Goodes' term.

As I've already said I think the reenactment of the way things were at the time of early settlement is barbaric (I also gave the definitions I thought applied to the word barbaric) It happened to be an Indigenous person doing it to the crowd. I said I'd feel exactly the same way if it was a non-Indigenous person doing it. There is no need for implied acts of violence to be used towards supporters at the risk of inciting the crowd.

The examples you gave weren't aimed at other people. I voiced my disapproval of Mark Williams actions at the time. I wouldn't apply the word barbaric if he was shooting at the ball as I recall the situation. Not 100% sure. Was he pretending to shoot another person?

I don't know about the Wiggles one. A moment caught in time. Were they pretending to shoot people. If so I wouldn't approve at all.

I didn't approve of Dusty's jail sign. I didn't approve of Cousins finger to the camera. Neither of them were designed to intimidate the crowd though.

The difference between those examples and Goodes is the AFL fined, warned, discouraged them all but have condoned and encouraged Goodes actions. The only inference I can see is that it's ok because Goodes is Indigenous. I have no doubt, going by past behaviour, that similar actions to the crowd would be discouraged if they were done by a non-Indigenous player. Can anyone tell me any other reason for the discrimination? Can anyone tell me what is to be gained by having rules for some and not for others.

 

[bruntonave.]

"

I didn't approve of Dusty's jail sign. I didn't approve of Cousins finger to the camera. Neither of them were designed to intimidate the crowd though.

The difference between those examples and Goodes is the AFL fined, warned, discouraged them all but have condoned and encouraged Goodes actions. The only inference I can see is that it's ok because Goodes is Indigenous.

Dusty was expressing solidarity with a violent criminal.

Cousins, who is indigenous BTW, was being selfish and disrespectful.

Goodes was giving expression to indigenous identity.

Plainly, they're not the same.

But what happened over the last round, the entire footy community expressing support for Goodes, was not about his dance during the Carlton game.

It was about him being booed and catcalled every time he went near the ball, every week.

 

[Coburgtiger]

"Celebration" is one term. "Meant to intimidate" was Goodes' term.

As I've already said I think the reenactment of the way things were at the time of early settlement is barbaric (I also gave the definitions I thought applied to the word barbaric) It happened to be an Indigenous person doing it to the crowd. I said I'd feel exactly the same way if it was a non-Indigenous person doing it. There is no need for implied acts of violence to be used towards supporters at the risk of inciting the crowd.

The examples you gave weren't aimed at other people. I voiced my disapproval of Mark Williams actions at the time. I wouldn't apply the word barbaric if he was shooting at the ball as I recall the situation. Not 100% sure. Was he pretending to shoot another person?

I don't know about the Wiggles one. A moment caught in time. Were they pretending to shoot people. If so I wouldn't approve at all.

I didn't approve of Dusty's jail sign. I didn't approve of Cousins finger to the camera. Neither of them were designed to intimidate the crowd though.

The difference between those examples and Goodes is the AFL fined, warned, discouraged them all but have condoned and encouraged Goodes actions. The only inference I can see is that it's ok because Goodes is Indigenous. I have no doubt, going by past behaviour, that similar actions to the crowd would be discouraged if they were done by a non-Indigenous player. Can anyone tell me any other reason for the discrimination? Can anyone tell me what is to be gained by having rules for some and not for others.

There's a difference between disapproval and calling something barbaric. The haka is meant to intimidate, and you wouldn't call it barbaric.

Cotchin running around before the bounce whacking all his opponents was meant to intimidate. Is that barbaric?

Maric's mean eyes intimidate everyone, and I'm sure they're meant to. Hardly barbaric.

Barbaric is a horrible word to use to describe a celebration of indigenous culture. Even if you just referring to the spear part. Or does the spear just make it to real?

It was a dance move. I reckon the worm is more barbaric.

 

[Rosy]

Dusty was expressing solidarity with a violent criminal.

Cousins, who is indigenous BTW, was being selfish and disrespectful.

Goodes was giving expression to indigenous identity.

Plainly, they're not the same.

But what happened over the last round, the entire footy community expressing support for Goodes, was not about his dance during the Carlton game.

It was about him being booed and catcalled every time he went near the ball, every week.

Whatever the others did, and I said I didn't approve of any of them, the fact is they were sanctioned by the AFL while Adam Goodes' behaviour was encouraged.

There's no doubt in my mind the booing has intensified since the war dance. I don't agree with the booing but I also don't think Adam has done himself any favours by using his career as a political stage.

My main issue is the discrimination though. Why wasn't Goodes' behaviour, and the repeat incidents of it, considered as unacceptable as previous examples, especially when it was aimed at the crowd? I'd love to know if anyone actually supports different rules for different people. I don't think any of the examples given are necessary or acceptable.

On another note, and not really related to the topic, I'd be interested to read about Ben's Indigenous history and the 13yo girl being mentally handicapped as you've referenced brunton. I'd appreciate a couple of links if possible please.

 

[Willo]

History proves a lot of things. If only you would read and understand it. We could all get somewhere. People don't want to know. I've refuted your reactionary *smile*, (thats snide I guess), here and in past long discussions on Indigenous people on PRE, piece by piece, point by point. It makes zero difference.

It may not have been addressed at me, but I could read it princess. It was the textbook example of a half truth.

Dunno about "princess" but I have been called a "prince among men" probably by my mum ;D but speaking of "royalty"
What a drama queen you are. You've refuted zero.zip. Zilch to me. All you've done is waffle. Maybe you've had a win in your own mind. Bully for you with your "reactionary *smile*", talk about time to give it a rest. "Past long discussions" so that sums it up.
Nothing to do with what I wrote, just beating up the past. Glad you could admit to that at least.

However it doesn't detract from what I wrote, however you want to dress it up. Move on.

However good to see Adams feeling fine now and will return to play.

 

[Rosy]

There's a difference between disapproval and calling something barbaric. The haka is meant to intimidate, and you wouldn't call it barbaric.

Cotchin running around before the bounce whacking all his opponents was meant to intimidate. Is that barbaric?

Maric's mean eyes intimidate everyone, and I'm sure they're meant to. Hardly barbaric.

Barbaric is a horrible word to use to describe a celebration of indigenous culture. Even if you just referring to the spear part. Or does the spear just make it to real?

It was a dance move. I reckon the worm is more barbaric.

None of the actions you referred to were an imitation of a very dark and awful time in our history when Indigenous people speared whites and whites shot Indigenous people. What benefits there in pretending to spear supporters in a manner that Adam claimed was meant to be intimidating? I've already given the definitions that applied to the term barbaric which I used. Did you read them? I don't see how the worm is barbaric but you're entitled to your opinion. I respect that, and won't question you on it as others have questioned me.

There is a massive difference with the Haka. It's aimed at the opposition team rather than in the face of the supporters. It also doesn't imply killing. Adam said he wouldn't do his "war dance" to the opposition team because it had an Indigenous player in it.

Do you see any discrimination within AFL ranks in regards to Adam's dance? Do you think every player should have the right to risk inciting the crowd by behaving in a threatening manner towards them?

Not sure about your question about your question in relation to the spear making it too real for me. It was just an act of aggression aimed at the supporters that I think was totally unnecessary. I'd like to think we have ALL moved on since those days.

 

[bruntonave.]

There's no doubt in my mind the booing has intensified since the war dance. I don't agree with the booing but I also don't think Adam has done himself any favours by using his career as a political stage.

If you're right, that the booing is politically motivated, and I think you are, then everyone has an opportunity to make a stand, which is what RFC the whole footy world did over the weekend.

Did Adam Goodes think that this would happen, and it would go on so long? I don't think he did.

He has suffered. And the issue that is at the heart of australian identity has been squarely in the public spotlight.

 

[bruntonave.]

On another note, and not really related to the topic, I'd be interested to read about Ben's Indigenous history and the 13yo girl being mentally handicapped as you've referenced brunton. I'd appreciate a couple of links if possible please.

Yeah, they're both very related to the topic.

Ben Cousins is a Collard. The Collards are a large and fairly prominent nyoongar family.

Soon after the incident in the Collingwood game it came out that the perpetrator was young and maybe not 100% responsible for her actions.
Goodes addressed this directly the next morning. Impeccably.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg9ehFjrEjo
(go to 2.01)