Prime Minister Poll

[Rosy]

Apologies. retracted.

I have had a quick look, but both this thread and the politics threads are quite large.

If that's a Clayton's way of admitting you attributed a claim to me without being able to back it up then accepted. Thank you.

 

[U2Tigers]

It nearly killed me.

 

[tigersnake]

$million school halls & tuck shops was a waste of money. Pink batts, was another, cash for clunkers another, etc etc.
The biggest beef I've got is that the money could have been spend more wisely on infrastructure, such as hospitals, reservoirs/water saving/effiiciency upgrades, upgrading Tafe colleges, railway crossing blackspots, roads and other infrastructure that is badly needed and will have long lasting benefits. Rather than waste just it on absolute crap.

Knighters Revenge beat me to it re-posting Lambs post above from a while ago. Lamby answered all these claims superbly, backed up with sources. It highlights the futility of the political threads, logic, stats, figures, research, experts? Who cares. People keep believing what they want to believe.

A few more points willo, thats I've probably already made:

The whole point of these programs was to get money out the door quickly, to pump-prime the economy. Guidelines were relaxed and there was some leakage and stuff-ups. But there were far more happy schools and people in snug/ cool houses. If the government had not relaxed guideline and moved quickly, the tabloid headlines would have been 'Government red tape stalls building industry on its knees'. Any large-scale program has a minority of rorters and mistakes. Its unavoidable to a certain extent, regardless of how quick they happen. But expert economists said at the time, some wastage is not important, what is important is to get money into the economy fast.

Also, putting the wastage and safety issues aside, home insulation was chosen as a green initiative because it is the single simplest and cheapest way to save large amounts of energy. Basic number crunching. Most bang for buck.

All of those measure you mention are all worthy, but many were already happening and also had long timelines, no good for the policy goal of speedy $. As for the TAFEs, I agree, pity all the coalition state governments don't.

 

[Willo]

have you got any figures to back up the 'school halls and tuck shop' claims?
i remember seeing figures which showed that a much higher percentage of the money givne to school was spent on classrooms and libraries. sorry cant remember where i saw this.

Why do I need to back up "my claims"? People must have been living under a rock not to have read the countless media articles highlighting the absolute waste. If you want to refute it, try google, usually works for me.

A few more points willo, thats I've probably already made:

The whole point of these programs was to get money out the door quickly, to pump-prime the economy. Guidelines were relaxed and there was some leakage and stuff-ups. But there were far more happy schools and people in snug/ cool houses. If the government had not relaxed guideline and moved quickly, the tabloid headlines would have been 'Government red tape stalls building industry on its knees'. Any large-scale program has a minority of rorters and mistakes. Its unavoidable to a certain extent, regardless of how quick they happen. But expert economists said at the time, some wastage is not important, what is important is to get money into the economy fast.

Also, putting the wastage and safety issues aside, home insulation was chosen as a green initiative because it is the single simplest and cheapest way to save large amounts of energy. Basic number crunching. Most bang for buck.

All of those measure you mention are all worthy, but many were already happening and also had long timelines, no good for the policy goal of speedy $. As for the TAFEs, I agree, pity all the coalition state governments don't.

So the answer is just "get the money out there" regardless of where it was spent. Gee how responsible.
Home insulation.. "bang for your buck" you are kidding. It was a sop to the Greens and a total waste. No checks or balances, how many were just thrown up in the ceiling? Did nothing except employ installers, they should have just handed them a blank cheque, hold on, they did.

 

[tigersnake]

Why do I need to back up "my claims"? People must have been living under a rock not to have read the countless media articles highlighting the absolute waste. If you want to refute it, try google, usually works for me.

So the answer is just "get the money out there" regardless of where it was spent. Gee how responsible.
Home insulation.. "bang for your buck" you are kidding. It was a sop to the Greens and a total waste. No checks or balances, how many were just thrown up in the ceiling? Did nothing except employ installers, they should have just handed them a blank cheque, hold on, they did.

No. Thats not what I said. I said the policy goal was to pump-prime the economy by getting money out quicks, no 'regardless' about it. I said some wastage and stuff-ups, given the speed and scale, was inevitable. The majority of the results were good. Schools got infrastructure they needed, and just as important, builders got a lot of work quickly.

No I'm not kidding, Bang for buck. Low dollar, simple (buy some batts and stick 'em in the roof), big energy savings. It is very basic. And it did do something, it made houses more energy efficient.

And no, I wasn't living under a rock, but I know tabloid sensationalism when I see it. Have you read Lambs post and sources? Didn't think so. Tabloid hysteria does not equal fact-based analysis Willo. But if its more fun for you, go for it.

 

[Brodders17]

Why do I need to back up "my claims"? People must have been living under a rock not to have read the countless media articles highlighting the absolute waste. If you want to refute it, try google, usually works for me.

dont be defensive. just asking if you had any details to back up your claim. i could remember reading good evidence to the contrary, but couldnt remember where.

but you're right, it has been in the media, and Abbott says it repeatedly, so it must be true.

 

[U2Tigers]

dont be defensive. just asking if you had any details to back up your claim. i could remember reading good evidence to the contrary, but couldnt remember where.

but you're right, it has been in the media, and Abbott says it repeatedly, so it must be true.

Yep lets even maker this about Abbott.

and I thought for a while we actually talked about something else.

 

[Willo]

have you got any figures to back up the 'school halls and tuck shop' claims?
i remember seeing figures which showed that a much higher percentage of the money givne to school was spent on classrooms and libraries. sorry cant remember where i saw this.

I'm not being defensive at all. It's just that some see fit to request facts, surely it's easy to google them yourself. I didn't realise you had to, but then again, maybe it should be a site rule. ;D
Here's some reading for you in your spare time. I'm sure some will brush all the articles off as a Tory conspiracy, or that waste is good, or it needed to be done in a rush or any other b.s. excuse. The fact is waste is waste.
As to spending on libraries, yep $250,000 on a library for ONE student. It's nearly enough to make you blush with embarrassment.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-depth/schools-watch/complaints-roll-in-over-ber-scheme/story-fn56ulhe-1225884488791
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/school-billions-miss-their-target-in-rush-to-spend-rudd-stimulus-money-20100214-nzkp.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-10-18/opposition-attacks-handling-of-ber-scheme/4320892
http://www.dailyadvertiser.com.au/story/746913/what-a-waste/
http://www.governmentnews.com.au/2010/04/13/article/New-taskforce-to-investigate-BER-scheme/YACTQBMVZN.html


Natural disasters, and botched BER, pink batts to blame for debt

Michael Harvey, Joe Hildebrand
From: Herald Sun
May 10, 2011 8:02PM


THE nation's net debt has blasted through the psychological barrier of $100 billion for the first time in Budget history - about $4500 for every man, woman and child.

Spending slashed in bid for black
Federal Budget 2011 special report


But Wayne Swan says debt levels are a "tiny fraction", in relative terms, compared to other industrialised countries.

Last night's financial accounts revealed the Budget would be in deficit by $22 billion this year, due largely to massive revenue write-downs since the global financial crisis.


The Treasurer said $22 billion worth of "difficult savings" over coming years would ensure Labor kept its promise of returning the Budget to surplus next year to the tune of $3.5 billion.

"We'll be back in the black by 2012-13, on time, as promised, Mr Swan told Parliament.

Budget papers revealed a $16 billion blowout in net debt - the total estimate of every dollar the Federal Government owes at home and abroad.

The figure was previously predicted to be just over $90 billion in last year's Budget but Treasury has now revised it to $106.6 billion for the 2011-12 financial year.

That puts net debt in excess of the notorious $96 billion that the Coalition inherited from Labor upon taking office in 1996.

It means total interest repayments next financial year will top $13 billion.

However, in a bonus for the Government, actual net interest paid will be only $5.5 billion thanks to lower interest rates and rising receipts from Commonwealth Government Securities.

Mr Swan said net debt would peak at 7.2 per cent of gross domestic product next financial year.

"Our public debt is a tiny fraction of that carried by comparable economies, our fiscal position the envy of the developed world," he said. "An investment boom is gathering pace."

Mr Swan blamed natural disasters for the $22 billion deficit, but the Budget has also been hit by a string of disasters that are entirely man made.

The first Gillard Budget is haunted by the ghost of at least $5 billion worth of new transport projects, extra nurses and support for pensioners that the community will never see.

The money has disappeared into the bungled rollout of the Government's three key stimulus measures: Building the Education Revolution, pink batts and the solar rebate schemes.

And that figure appears set to get even bigger with the revelation that the $300 million-plus set top box scheme allows for an allocation of $350 per person - 10 times the cost of the cheapest devices.

Mr Swan repeatedly referred to the impact of the Brisbane floods and Cyclone Yasi on the Budget bottom line, and announced $6.6 billion to be spent on disaster relief.

But that spend could have been completely covered were it not for the blowouts of the Government's three botched stimulus rollouts.

By the most modest estimate, the BER scheme had a cost blowout of $2 billion in the eastern states alone: builders say they pocketed up to $5 billion of the $16 billion program.

Couple this with the disastrous $2.5 billion pink batts rollout that cost lives and caused housefires across the nation - as well as the $850 million solar panel rebate blowout - and the total waste is between $5.3-$8.3 billion for just these three policies over the past three years or so.

Total energy efficiency spending will be slashed from $753 million this year to just $28 million in 2014-15.

In a darker irony, the blowout in the school building rollout has fuelled cuts to existing education programs, including $132 million slashed from the Digital Education Revolution. Another program cut - the Australian Learning and Teaching Council - was to provide grants to promote "quality in learning" and higher education but its $88 million is no more.

The Government says $38 million saved from these cuts will be redirected to its $6.6 billion in natural disaster relief but that may not have been necessary had it not blown somewhere around that figure in its own programs.

And that pattern appears set to continue with the announcement that all pensioners would receive a set top box to aid them in the transition to digital television.

While few would dispute the merits of the policy itself, the $350 per person price tag beggars belief.

The cheapest set top boxes are as little as $30 and a good quality one is easily bought for less than $100.

The proposition that at least $250 could be soaked up in delivery and "labour" has all the hallmarks of the batts and BER fiasco.

Communications Minister Stephen Conroy has refused to provide a breakdown of the costs, citing "commercial in confidence".

And the program was noticably absent from Senator Conroy's Budget media package yesterday, which instead included seven pro-forma press releases announcing the same thing -the NBN rollout in each state and territory.

That is likely to do little to allay concerns that history will repeat itself and there is plenty more money left to burn.
Link http://www.heraldsun.com.au/archives/old-news-pages/natural-disasters-and-botched-ber-pink-batts-to-blame-for-debt/story-fn8menqx-1226053524017

Reference to the Orgill Taskforce
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/ber-waste-exposed-by-taskforce/story-fn59niix-1225902317500

http://ozteacher.com.au/html/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=632:ber-quickly-becoming-badly-executed-rip-off&catid=20:funding&Itemid=345
Evesham State School got $250,000 for a library for it's ONE student

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-12-09/school-gets-two-tuck-shops-in-ber-bungle/2368950
School gets 2 tuck shops
http://www.smh.com.au/national/education/bad-case-of-tuck-shop-charms-in-complaints-about-school-scheme-20100331-rex4.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/canteen-too-small-for-a-pie-warmer/story-e6frg6n6-1225867479199
http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/after-the-ber-why-are-schools-still-broken/
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/busting-the-many-ber-myths/story-e6frg6z6-1226007190063
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/ber-hall-so-small-it-cant-hold-39-kids/story-fn59niix-1225916807499
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/national/schools-made-to-build-halls-they-didnt-need/story-fncvk70o-1226481365276
http://ozteacher.com.au/html/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=632:ber-quickly-becoming-badly-executed-rip-off&catid=20:funding&Itemid=345
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/school-hall-cant-fit-them-all-despite-costing-2-million/story-e6freuy9-1225842575116


As for this current governments fiscal mismanagement, now where will the funding come from for all their noble schemes?
Swan in his Budget Surplus scrapped and scraped and did his smoke and mirrors routine to be able to say he's got a surplus. Read into it a bit deeper and find where the money came from, what will be slashed and a few other "minor" changes to fool people.
No, I won't be providing facts & figures to prove it. It's on record. And I'm going for tea. Cheers

 

[Brodders17]

Yep lets even maker this about Abbott.

and I thought for a while we actually talked about something else.

it is the PM poll thread.

 

[U2Tigers]

it is the PM poll thread.

True it is.

LOL, just funny how somehow it got back to negatives of Abbott from where it was at

 

[tigersnake]

And I'm going for tea. Cheers

What's on the menu?

 

[Willo]

it is the PM poll thread.

True it is.

LOL, just funny how somehow it got back to negatives of Abbott from where it was at

It's the stock standard deflection .
But getting back to the poll.........
Gillard is incompetent, fiscally irresponsible, tells fibs whoppers, has poor memory, deflects, whinges, whines, deflects, etc etc. Dud,delist.
Abbott does/is only a few of the above but doesn't like women apparently, even though he has an all female family, wears "budgie smugglers, dud,delist.
Perhaps a triumvirate of Latham, Brown and Tuckey would provide a good mix

What's on the menu?

Chicken ;D

 

[Brodders17]

Yep lets even maker this about Abbott.

and I thought for a while we actually talked about something else.

sorry didnt have time to reply properly before.
the reason i mentioned abbott, in addition to the thread being about him, is that i think the 'school halls' issue sums him up well. he often references 'school halls' and other such things in a very shallow style. on ocassion even when evidence is against him he will continue to use his slogans.

 

[MB78]

It's the stock standard deflection .
But getting back to the poll.........
Gillard is incompetent, fiscally irresponsible, tells fibs whoppers, has poor memory, deflects, whinges, whines, deflects, etc etc. Dud,delist.
Abbott does/is only a few of the above but doesn't like women apparently, even though he has an all female family, wears "budgie smugglers, dud,delist.
Perhaps a triumvirate of Latham, Brown and Tuckey would provide a good mix

So true.

As a nation we deserve better.

Abbott focus on policy to show that you deserve to be our next PM as our current PM clearly doesn't.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

It's the stock standard deflection .
But getting back to the poll.........
Gillard is incompetent,

opinion not backed by any facts

fiscally irresponsible,

70 Billion black hole, uncosted parental leave scheme without means testing?

tells fibs whoppers,

"illegal aliens" massive lie, haven't read BHP report, massive lie, won't challenge Turnbull, massive lie, so Far Tony is going toe to toe

has poor memory,

Forgot he tried to intimidate uni election opponent, forgot he read BHP report,

deflects, whinges, whines, deflects, etc etc. Dud,delist.

"I'll never play the victim card". the handbag hit squad are after me....I reckon he whinges pretty well.

Abbott does/is only a few of the above but doesn't like women apparently, even though he has an all female family, wears "budgie smugglers, dud,delist.
Perhaps a triumvirate of Latham, Brown and Tuckey would provide a good mix

Chicken ;D

I think you are selling Tony short here mate, I reckon scores far better than you give him credit for.

 

[tigergollywog]

You're probably right TGG. But they'd give you a pencil for a headache and give the asprin to the HSU.

Regarding deficits, just a few questions
1. What was the amount of debt that the country is in now?
2. What was it 4 years ago?
3. What infrastructure or lasting legacy has this splurge given us?
4. Can the current government debt be serviced?
5. What taxes are they relying on to service them?

I'd like to know the answers, does anyone have them?

First point pretty funny.

regarding deficits, I havnt got any graphs, but Im pretty sure our national debt is like you or I owing the bank $10K on the credit card when we earn $200K a year. Its relatively little and manageable. Most financial planners will advise you to go INTO debt while your earning through your 30's and 40's (nation building).

I agree with you about infrastructure. I agree the roof batts and school halls was a joke. Delayed the inevidable by a coupla years. Should have started an East Coast fast rail system or some big ticket, non-urban infrastructure project.

 

[MB78]

I agree with you about infrastructure. I agree the roof batts and school halls was a joke. Delayed the inevidable by a coupla years. Should have started an East Coast fast rail system or some big ticket, non-urban infrastructure project.

I have said it before but a national plan on water would have been a great project to look at. We could have looked at building a pipeline from the top end to feed the Murray Darling system. This would have solved SA's water needs, Victoria's who have a North South pipeline and would have ensured that farmers get full use of water allocations.

Also on a fast rail project I have listened to Lindsay Fox on this it would be a great idea to look at what China is implementing and look to copy this. You could live in Geelong and take 20 to work in the city.

 

[AngryAnt]

You could live in Geelong and take 20 to work in the city.

Yes, but then you'd be living in Geelong.

 

[tigergollywog]

reminds me of a billy connelly joke


Before we all judge Livsy, we should walk a mile in his shoes ........................... because then we'd be a mile away, with his shoes.

 

[RemoteTiger]

Tabloid hysteria does not equal fact-based analysis

Arguably the greatest post on this elongated thread............