"Don't know what you've got til it's gone"You don't know what you've got til it's gone.
Don't it always seem to be so
You train someone up, then they go
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Pick 29: Shai Bolton
- Thread starter puregreen
- Start date
Don't it always seem to be so
You train someone up, then they go
Sin and Posh are correct, reckon you are getting body language confused with effort. You only need to remember our much loved number 12 with all his wonderful foibles. The Ricoh man could never be accused of lacking effort. The stats also suggest that Shai was indeed giving everything he had within the confines of the role he was expected to play.
Perhaps he was just frustrated at the lack of opportunity to play a role that helped the team even more…? Perhaps he was frustrated that others were not playing to the required level, or that his beloved tigers had turned into a rabble, or that some bright spark in footy opps suggested that it might be a good idea for Shai to think about going back home…..? Maybe all of the above? Who knows!
What I do know is that our chances of getting another Shai in the draft are slim.
Perhaps he could have got inthe vicinity given the way the modern roving maul works!
Nah. Dusty, Judd, Crappa, Pendles, Buddy, n a whole heap of other star players all come through the draft every year. Just gotta pick em when they're there.
Imo he is our best player and at 25, has his best football years still to come.
You accuse him of not trying hard enough. You don't recognise that he has largely been played out of position this year and has not been allowed to play so that he may reach his potential.
And apparently he now wants out, which you seem to think reflects on his lack of character.
I disagree.
I agree he is our most talented, gifted footballer. I've said he could easily get to be mentioned as one of the elite talents in the league.
Others have said it above, move him out of the forward line, great. Who's he going to kick it to? Mansell and Ryan? The game where he kicked 4, he was easily above everyone else on the ground. He needs to do that more than 2-3 times a season if he wants to be mentioned in the same vein as the best in the league. How he wants to achieve that is on him. He's not a victim, he's a very well paid professional.
So, let's get to some data.
Now, by no means would anyone dispute Shai was a forward mid, not mid forward.
However, he had the second highest centre bounce attendances for Richmond, behind Nankervis (328) - nearly 15 a game. Nankervis had 494, at 23 a game. He'd be at a very large proportion of our centre bounces, maybe 85-90%.
So comparatively, Shai was up in the middle a reasonable amount for someone who was lapparently eft down in the forward line helplessly to battle against the hordes.
Our coaches apparently let him down. So I've gone and taken a look at his numbers. This is purely a manual task, but the AFL app has some gold if you'd like to go verify it, one round at a time. From it, you can find out where players are getting the ball, and all sorts of other useful information. I've done some arbitrary analysis to dig into this belief that he wasn't up in the midfield at all.
The method I used was to find out several bits of info.
Firstly, how many times did Shai get the ball. Of those, how many of those possessions were outside F50. Now, I know some of the time he'd have led up to the ball from the forwardline, but marked outside. So whenever the disposal was marked as just outside forward 50, I didn't count this as outside, giving a bias to those possessions as inside even though the data says they weren't. This will tell you roughly how many times he's disposed of the ball moving outside the forwardline (even if he started off in the pocket or flank). Again, the data will show whether he was left to rot, or was a part of the action.
I've also recorded how many times Shai attended centre bounces in each game. Next to this you can see how many times in a game there was a centre clearance. This gives an approximate, but slightly inaccurate amount of times the ball was actually bounced. From this you can see how many times we've had Bolton in for the Centre bounces per game and what ratio of these (again, approximate) we used him in the match. As you can see, in most cases it was over 50% of our Centre bounces he was there. Sometimes a lot more, other times not as much. Whilst these are not the bible, and I'm not claiming them to be, they paint a trend in actually how he's used, not in how our eyes see him as being used.
For overall effectiveness/damage in his game, I've included how many times he's been a part of a score involvement, how many times he's directly assisted a goal and of course how many times he's kicked it through the middle.
Now, by no means would anyone dispute Shai was a forward mid, not mid forward.
However, he had the second highest centre bounce attendances for Richmond, behind Nankervis (328) - nearly 15 a game. Nankervis had 494, at 23 a game. He'd be at a very large proportion of our centre bounces, maybe 85-90%.
So comparatively, Shai was up in the middle a reasonable amount for someone who was lapparently eft down in the forward line helplessly to battle against the hordes.
Our coaches apparently let him down. So I've gone and taken a look at his numbers. This is purely a manual task, but the AFL app has some gold if you'd like to go verify it, one round at a time. From it, you can find out where players are getting the ball, and all sorts of other useful information. I've done some arbitrary analysis to dig into this belief that he wasn't up in the midfield at all.
The method I used was to find out several bits of info.
Firstly, how many times did Shai get the ball. Of those, how many of those possessions were outside F50. Now, I know some of the time he'd have led up to the ball from the forwardline, but marked outside. So whenever the disposal was marked as just outside forward 50, I didn't count this as outside, giving a bias to those possessions as inside even though the data says they weren't. This will tell you roughly how many times he's disposed of the ball moving outside the forwardline (even if he started off in the pocket or flank). Again, the data will show whether he was left to rot, or was a part of the action.
I've also recorded how many times Shai attended centre bounces in each game. Next to this you can see how many times in a game there was a centre clearance. This gives an approximate, but slightly inaccurate amount of times the ball was actually bounced. From this you can see how many times we've had Bolton in for the Centre bounces per game and what ratio of these (again, approximate) we used him in the match. As you can see, in most cases it was over 50% of our Centre bounces he was there. Sometimes a lot more, other times not as much. Whilst these are not the bible, and I'm not claiming them to be, they paint a trend in actually how he's used, not in how our eyes see him as being used.
For overall effectiveness/damage in his game, I've included how many times he's been a part of a score involvement, how many times he's directly assisted a goal and of course how many times he's kicked it through the middle.
| Round | Opponent | Disposals | CBAs | Total Centre Clearances in Match | Clearances | No of disposals outside F50 | Inside 50 | Goals | GA | SI |
| 0 | GCS | 8 | 11 | 26 | 3 | 5 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 3 |
| 1 | Carlton | 18 | 15 | 23 | 2 | 14 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 4 |
| 2 | Port Adelaide | 22 | 20 | 31 | 5 | 18 | 7 | 2 | 1 | 8 |
| 3 | Sydney | 25 | 14 | 20 | 3 | 21 | 8 | 2 | 0 | 10 |
| 4 | St Kilda | 19 | 7 | 16 | 2 | 14 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 8 |
| 5 | West Coast | 21 | 17 | 23 | 5 | 14 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 8 |
| 6 | BYE | |||||||||
| 7 | Melbourne | 18 | 13 | 18 | 2 | 15 | 7 | 1 | 1 | 3 |
| 8 | Fremantle | 13 | 20 | 22 | 3 | 10 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| 9 | Bulldogs | 19 | 14 | 24 | 4 | 14 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 5 |
| 10 | Brisbane | 18 | 29 | 32 | 7 | 15 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 3 |
| 11 | Essendon (Subbed) | 16 | 12 | 21 | 3 | 10 | 4 | 2 | 2 | 5 |
| 12 | Geelong (DNP) | |||||||||
| 13 | Adelaide | 20 | 13 | 20 | 7 | 11 | 6 | 0 | 2 | 7 |
| 14 | Hawthorn | 15 | 14 | 21 | 1 | 12 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 4 |
| 15 | BYE | |||||||||
| 16 | Carlton | 17 | 21 | 30 | 4 | 13 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 6 |
| 17 | Fremantle | 16 | 7 | 24 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 7 |
| 18 | GWS | 18 | 14 | 28 | 4 | 13 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 5 |
| 19 | Port Adelaide | 17 | 23 | 29 | 3 | 15 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 7 |
| 20 | Collingwood | 21 | 18 | 23 | 4 | 14 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 6 |
| 21 | North Melbourne | 12 | 12 | 21 | 3 | 7 | 3 | 1 | 1 | 7 |
| 22 | St Kilda | 11 | 12 | 23 | 0 | 6 | 3 | 2 | 0 | 4 |
| 23 | Hawthorn | 12 | 13 | 25 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 7 |
| 24 | GCS | 13 | 9 | 25 | 0 | 6 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 3 |
Thanks for doing that work General. It must have taken some time to put all that together.
I think we can put to bed the myth that Shai is leaving because that ogre Yze wouldn’t give him a run in the middle.
Looking at Shai's key stats as a forward mid.
Champion data has him as a midfield forward.
In comparison to other players in his position.
He is above average in disposals, kicks, marks, inside 50s and goal assists.
He is elite in clearances, marks inside 50 (contested and on lead), and goals scored and score involvements.
Average in tackles, handballs, ground ball gets and uncontested possessions.
Below average in kicking efficiency, clangers, frees against, turnovers.
In terms of those, I'd put getting the ball, scoring or creating scores (Assists and involvements).
Would anyone here think these players are better than Shai? I'd say maybe Toby Greene in his peak (not this season).
But on field, you could argue that they contribute just as much, if not more than Shai has.
Comparing him against some of his peers:
Dylan Moore
Tom Papley
Gryan Miers
Toby Greene
Cam Rayner
For *smile* and giggles, Jason Horne Francis, who has attended slightly more Centre bounces than Shai (14 more - but in 2 more games) and has been up forward a reasonable amount for a midfielder and overall spends less time on the ground.
JHF has - Less goals (34 v 27) and marks inside 50 (33 v 21)
More goal assists, more score involvements and starts more scoring chains (48 v 17)
Had almost the same tackles inside 50 (1 less), and more across the ground.
Applies more pressure.
That just ain't right. I mean, Gryan Miers ffs. Doesn't hit the scoreboard as much, but creates more opportunities for others, and finds the ball more.
A 21 yo part time mid-forward, doing almost as much.
These guys should be tying Shai's boots up for him by now.
Champion data has him as a midfield forward.
In comparison to other players in his position.
He is above average in disposals, kicks, marks, inside 50s and goal assists.
He is elite in clearances, marks inside 50 (contested and on lead), and goals scored and score involvements.
Average in tackles, handballs, ground ball gets and uncontested possessions.
Below average in kicking efficiency, clangers, frees against, turnovers.
In terms of those, I'd put getting the ball, scoring or creating scores (Assists and involvements).
Would anyone here think these players are better than Shai? I'd say maybe Toby Greene in his peak (not this season).
But on field, you could argue that they contribute just as much, if not more than Shai has.
Comparing him against some of his peers:
Dylan Moore
Dylan Moore and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison
Dylan Moore and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
Tom Papley and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison
Tom Papley and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
Gryan Miers and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison
Gryan Miers and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
Toby Greene and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison
Toby Greene and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
Cameron Rayner and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison
Cameron Rayner and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
For *smile* and giggles, Jason Horne Francis, who has attended slightly more Centre bounces than Shai (14 more - but in 2 more games) and has been up forward a reasonable amount for a midfielder and overall spends less time on the ground.
Jason Horne-Francis and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison
Jason Horne-Francis and Shai Bolton AFL Stats Comparison.
www.footywire.com
More goal assists, more score involvements and starts more scoring chains (48 v 17)
Had almost the same tackles inside 50 (1 less), and more across the ground.
Applies more pressure.
That just ain't right. I mean, Gryan Miers ffs. Doesn't hit the scoreboard as much, but creates more opportunities for others, and finds the ball more.
A 21 yo part time mid-forward, doing almost as much.
These guys should be tying Shai's boots up for him by now.
Good job General.
Your work confirms what I have long suspected. He is a better player than many of us have understood and that he is needed at Punt road come hell or high
water.
Character.. lack of effort, is not an issue. Keep him.
Your work confirms what I have long suspected. He is a better player than many of us have understood and that he is needed at Punt road come hell or high
water.
Character.. lack of effort, is not an issue. Keep him.
Lol, you're the only person i know who'd make a statement have data prove them wrong, then try twist it into their point of view. Delusional.
You're not only deluded mate, you've either got a selective attention span, or your hard of reading. I'll try be brief, but I think based on evidence, this'll fall on "deaf ears."
The guy wants out. I believe he should be in the upper echelon of performance amongst all players in the league, not just at the level amongst the good small forwards going around. He has that potential. He's not living up to it. If he wants to go, and were getting 2 picks in the top 10 or thereabouts, I'm OK to let him go.
He's not going to be on the list when we next play finals, so if he wants to go, and the value is there, lets cash in our chips. It will be hard to find someone with as much potential, but if the draft is as good as it's supposed to be, back our team to get someone who can meet the same standard of performance more consistently.
Now, I'm not gonna say anymore to you, so if that doesn't sink in and you can't accept it without twisting words, have fun arguing in an echo chamber.
Yeah I'm the same. I wonder if Shai played half back and Dan was still in the forward line whether there would be a different view from some on who puts in. I reckon both do
To all but the twit who wrote this post Shai is 25 with 6-7 years left. Shai is our best player and with the players we will have coming in over the next two years there is no reason he can’t play in further final series.
We will soon have a better midfield and a better team with finals prospects.
No need to let Shai go and every reason to keep him.
Without letting Shai n Sausage go we're not gunna get much of a new n better midfield with just the number 1 pick n maybe a few second rounders. All the cream of the potential midfielders will be gone in the first dozen or so picks n then you're just hoping to score a bonearse out of the later picks.
I don't watch an enormous amount of non Richmond games but I have been watching most of the finals. Quite a few times I have noticed that there are few times during games that players don't gut chase and appear not to be putting in 100%. It made me think that if they were Richmond players there would be labelled as not trying.
I can't accept that there are lots of players in this final series who aren't putting in 100% so what am I seeing ? To me part of it is watching on TV that makes the difference. For example we don't get a correct depth perception so sometimes a player looks close but he may be 2-3 metres away with no chance of stopping someone or tackling and we haven't seen what that player has just done, for instance he may have gut run for a long period and is gassed. I am also sure players conserve energy when they know they can't influence the play.
This isn't specifically about Shai Bolton but I have seen quite a few games this year live and watched Richmond players chase hard all day and when I get home I have seen comments on this site about them not trying.
"Fremantle will offer two first-rounders for Shai Bolton, but not picks 9 and 10 given it is still holding out hope it might secure fellow Tiger Liam Baker. The Dockers have picks 9, 10 and 16, with the last pick likely to drift out three spots given NGA and father-son bids."
