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Palestine and Israel
- Thread starter the next big thing
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Where have I excused what Hamas has done? (You won't be able to find it because I haven't)
I have constantly denounced Hamas but what I have also done is continually pointed out that the Palestinians have a right to land granted to them under UN resolutions, they have the right to self determination and they have the right to not live under siege and under military rule. This is the problem with so much of the argument in this space, the legitimacy of the Palestinian cause did not disappear on october 7th and reiterating that right is seen by some as supporting Hamas, which it isn't. What Hamas did was disgusting and it has set that cause back (and I have said that as well) and that is a great shame. It has also given the world another excuse to ignore the rights of the Palestinians.
Maybe you could answer the question? How many Palestinian lives need to be lost so that Israel can say they have not bowed to the terrorists? What is the proportional response?
There is no such thing as a proportional response to terrorism, and to think there is legitimate terrorism, what you want some type of manual, if terrorist attack and kill you are allowed to kill x amount? You want to fight declare war, get onto a battle field and fight like a man and not like a coward, and that is what terrorist are cowards.
Israel bombing hospitals and innocent people is also cowardice
There is no excuse for terrorism, but it happens on both sides. Israel illegally occupying land and killing palestinians is also a form of terrorism. And only inflames the situation.
I don't disagree, I have said all along neither side holds the moral high ground.(although illegally occupying land is not terrorism)
That’s ridiculous.
The normal response to terrorism is a response that says “ if you do this, we will do this to you”. It is a deterrence measure.
To take your argument to its logical conclusion the shooting of a Palestinian olive farmer in the occupied West Bank which happened last month ( a form of terrorism) can be responded to with no level of proportionality ?
We expect responses to terrorism but proportionality is what stops full scale wars every time there is a terrorist act. Of course there is no rule book, there is a judgement call that has at least created a level of proportion to action and response.
Hamas can never fight a full scale war. They are a poorly trained and equipped band of zealots up against one of the best equipped militarily forces in the world.
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Israel are complicit in atrocities against innocent Palestinians. They have rubber stamped the expansion of settlements and effectively condoned murder.
and when they have murdered palestinians in order to occupy those lands? Is that now illegal or just immoral?
we could be posting here for a thousand years trying to work out who is more at fault or what was the real trigger for current hostilities
or who has what rights to which piece of land ...
is there any way of getting to some sort of uneasy peace ?
My guess is Israel wont stop until they have extracted some sort of revenge on Hamas ie (elimination of many of their key figures )
Hamas & Hezbollah are constantly reported as they wont stop until Israel is eliminated
then there are the external actors
the US , UK and much of Europe are openly behind Israel
its reported that Syria & Iran are behind Hamas and Hezbollah and behind them Russia
both Israel & Iran have nuclear capability
Is Iran's hate of the Jews so strong they will press the button ?
or is there some way things can back off , lets not say peace ?
some form of hostage exchange is the only bargaining chip I can think of
or who has what rights to which piece of land ...
is there any way of getting to some sort of uneasy peace ?
My guess is Israel wont stop until they have extracted some sort of revenge on Hamas ie (elimination of many of their key figures )
Hamas & Hezbollah are constantly reported as they wont stop until Israel is eliminated
then there are the external actors
the US , UK and much of Europe are openly behind Israel
its reported that Syria & Iran are behind Hamas and Hezbollah and behind them Russia
both Israel & Iran have nuclear capability
Is Iran's hate of the Jews so strong they will press the button ?
or is there some way things can back off , lets not say peace ?
some form of hostage exchange is the only bargaining chip I can think of
Maybe. The last hostage exchange I heard about was 1 Israeli soldier for 1000 jailed Hamas fighters. If there are 220 hostages or thereabouts not sure that ratio can be maintained. Another one was 6 for 5000 I think.
1948 is hardly an arbitrary time, it is when Israel was created. A land without people for a people without a land. Yeah, except it wasn't a land without people.
DS
from the link MD Jazz posted , then going to the road map link
this is the second last dot point
It is a great aspiration , but don't see how it will be achieved in the current climate
The incursion by Hamas seems to have been well planned so assume the taking of hostages was part of that planning
They don't appear to have been used as a bargaining chip so far and the two elderly women that were released seem to report that Hamas was organised and the hostages were well looked after , which makes sense , they are worth more alive than dead
I wouldn't hold out much hope of the US/UK/EU brokering a peace deal with Iran/Russia/Syria
maybe India or China might try to play that role
or is it more likely Qatar and/or Turkey or some other Arab nation might try to help with negotiations
How far will Israel work thru Palestine before Hamas looks to deal or is this a last stand for Hamas ?
Is there a trigger in that for Hezbollah/Iran to start a full scale war to the north ?
this is the second last dot point
- Parties reach final and comprehensive permanent status agreement that ends the Israel-Palestinian conflict in 2005, through a settlement negotiated between the parties based on UNSCR 242, 338, and 1397, that ends the occupation that began in 1967, and includes an agreed, just, fair, and realistic solution to the refugee issue, and a negotiated resolution on the status of Jerusalem that takes into account the political and religious concerns of both sides, and protects the religious interests of Jews, Christians, and Muslims worldwide, and fulfills the vision of two states, Israel and sovereign, independent, democratic and viable Palestine, living side-by-side in peace and security.
It is a great aspiration , but don't see how it will be achieved in the current climate
The incursion by Hamas seems to have been well planned so assume the taking of hostages was part of that planning
They don't appear to have been used as a bargaining chip so far and the two elderly women that were released seem to report that Hamas was organised and the hostages were well looked after , which makes sense , they are worth more alive than dead
I wouldn't hold out much hope of the US/UK/EU brokering a peace deal with Iran/Russia/Syria
maybe India or China might try to play that role
or is it more likely Qatar and/or Turkey or some other Arab nation might try to help with negotiations
How far will Israel work thru Palestine before Hamas looks to deal or is this a last stand for Hamas ?
Is there a trigger in that for Hezbollah/Iran to start a full scale war to the north ?
If Hezbollah pull the trigger the peaceful Lebanese will suffer as Israel will knock out every energy source ,bridge etc etc. forthwith
Hamas's attack on Israel that started this round of fighting was an act of terrorism.
What the Israeli Government's IDF is doing now to Palestine is equally an act of terrorism.
They are both political organisations. Both are being condemned for their actions by large portions of the people they represent.
The only difference between terrorists and freedom fighters depends on which side you are on. Freedom fighters throughout history are those that won and were able to write the history books.
What the Israeli Government's IDF is doing now to Palestine is equally an act of terrorism.
They are both political organisations. Both are being condemned for their actions by large portions of the people they represent.
The only difference between terrorists and freedom fighters depends on which side you are on. Freedom fighters throughout history are those that won and were able to write the history books.
The War Machine Wants You to Condemn Hamas
The act of condemnation has been cynically weaponised, writes Jonathan Cook. The aim is not to show solidarity with Israelis. It’s to fan the flames of hatred to rationalise crimes against Palestinians. By Jonathan Cook Jonathan-Cook.net However counter-intuitive it may sound, there are thr
consortiumnews.com
on the hostage front I did see mention that the Pope is meeting with relatives of the Israeli hostages
and also meeting with representatives of the Palestinians, will the Vatican offer its self as a negotiator ???
and in a sperate report, the Crown Prince of Bahrain was calling for a swap of women and children hostages for female Palestinian prisoners
No doubt the calls for some action on the hostage front will grow louder , both from Arab neighbours and the broader international community
In the meantime will the IDF be able to locate them ? Without live hostages Hamas's bargaining power is reduced
and also meeting with representatives of the Palestinians, will the Vatican offer its self as a negotiator ???
and in a sperate report, the Crown Prince of Bahrain was calling for a swap of women and children hostages for female Palestinian prisoners
No doubt the calls for some action on the hostage front will grow louder , both from Arab neighbours and the broader international community
In the meantime will the IDF be able to locate them ? Without live hostages Hamas's bargaining power is reduced
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