Matt white

[hutstar]

Why? Hardwick's not a wizard, he had very talented players to work with.

Please. Hardwick's not a wizard but he's not had a dead-set premiership lineup in any of the years we won the flag IMO. In fact, in 2020 we beat Port, at Home, with against a Port squad on paper that I think was every bit as strong as the Tiges lineup. The difference was system and culture. FWIW I think Hinkley's failed to get the most from a strong list for 8 or 9 years now.

 

[Sintiger]

The only thing I would say about Matt White and his Dad is that just because they happen say derogatory things about certain individuals at RFC doesn’t mean they are true.
In any organisation there will be people who are liked and disliked. Lids gets a bad rap for instance but Shaun Grigg is his best buddy. Who do we believe ?
The answer is nobody from my perspective, I don’t know them.

 

[Brodders17]

if we’re talking over the past 6 years T_G I’ve got to disagree with you, I think they’ve had very little elite talent , Grey, Wines and Boak would be the only ones even considered I’d imagine , we’ve had Dusty, Skip, Grimes, Houli, Reiwoldt, Rance, Lambert, Prestia ,Lynch, Vlaustin who’d all have to be considered elite in their positions imho

White would be the most overrated footballer I can remember by the Tiger faithful IMHo, incredible effort to play 200 AFL games

True, look how many triple premiership players Hardwick has been gifted, not to mention the dual premiership players. Poor Hinkley has none.

 

[Brodders17]

Pretty harsh, you don't go 31-8 across two seasons without a decent tactical base.



Just my opinion. I watch these two teams more than anyone else and that's my take.


I'd definitely argue that, General. In 2017 Hardwick had one of the best of all time at either end of the ground and maybe the best of all time in the middle.

Particularly defensively, Hardwick has been blessed with talent. Rance, Grimes, Astbury, Vlastuin, Houli and Short would all be picked before any Port defenders were even considered.

I agree the take that we weren't a supremely talented side is false, but of that amazing backline 3 came to Richmond as forwards, but Hardwick had the fore site to move them back, then develop them. Another was a PSD pick, and another needed a good 3 years of patience before becoming one of the best ever.
Hardwick has also shown the ability to constantly adapt, and construct styles that suit our players.

 

[Brodders17]

One coach has Dustin Martin and the other doesn't.

Also, Dusty was a gun, then Hardwick adapted, gave him free reign in a way no other coach would and he became the GOAT.
Any other coach would have made Dusty defend, would have worried about structures, would have tried to turn him into something he is not. But Hardwick realised Dusty could do what no one else can, so let him do it and worked out systems to cover him in those other areas.

 

[Sintiger]

I think Hinkley has been a very good coach. IMO he was 7 points away from being a premiership coach in 2020 because Port would have beaten the cats if they won the prelim that year.
Fact is they didn’t so history rates Hardwick higher. Dimma also was a key part of turning a whole club around by turning himself around as well, not sure Hinkley is that flexible

 

[Tenacious]

As for White he was no loss to me hearing him sounds like sour grapes and a grudge , but hey we went for the better 3 flags later.

100%
He came over in that interview with an unwarranted and inflated opinion of his own ability.

 

[Mr Brightside]

True, look how many triple premiership players Hardwick has been gifted, not to mention the dual premiership players. Poor Hinkley has none.

There’s no doubt some people are born luckier then others , however some breed success and some reek failure . Ross Lyon is one that always intrigues me , been involved in footy for 40 odd years and only involvement with 1 flag I think ( Swans 05) however he some how has the reputation of Barrassi , which is amazing considering he is a big reason the game is ultra defensive and boring

 

[Elmer]

100%
He came over in that interview with an unwarranted and inflated opinion of his own ability.

Played 150 afl games. Need some ability and self determination to do that.

 

[The Big Richo]

In fact, in 2020 we beat Port, at Home, with against a Port squad on paper that I think was every bit as strong as the Tiges lineup.

Ok, let's have a look at the two teams.

Port Adelaide VRichmond
B: [1] Tom Jonas, [12] Trent McKenzie, [17] Tom Clurey
B: [35] Nathan Broad, [2] Dylan Grimes, [21] Noah Balta

HB: [3] Ryan Burton, [33] Darcy Byrne-Jones, [8] Hamish Hartlett
HB:[7] Liam Baker, [1] Nick Vlastuin, [14] Bachar Houli

C[15] Karl Amon, [11] Tom Rockliff, [21] Xavier Duursma
C[33] Kamdyn McIntosh, [3] Dion Prestia, [50] Marlion Pickett

HF [7] Brad Ebert, [9] Robbie Gray, [18] Zak Butters
HF [34] Jack Graham, [11] Jason Castagna, [4] Dustin Martin

FF [4] Todd Marshall, [20] Connor Rozee, [22] Charlie Dixon
FF [19] Tom J. Lynch, [8] Jack Riewoldt, [29] Shai Bolton

[29] Scott Lycett, [16] Ollie Wines, [10] Travis Boak
[25] Toby Nankervis, [10] Shane Edwards, [9] Trent Cotchin

[2] Sam Powell-Pepper, [5] Dan Houston, [6] Steven Motlop, [38] Peter Ladhams
[12] David Astbury, [15] Jayden Short, [17] Daniel Rioli, [23] Kane Lambert

Here's my combined team:
B: Astbury Grimes Broad
HB: Short Vlastuin Houli
C: Boak Prestia Pickett
HF Gray Lynch Martin
FF Bolton Riewoldt Rioli
R Nankervis Wines Cotchin
I/C Edwards Lambert Baker Balta

I'm looking at it through the lens of career, not season, so it is poosible some of those young guys like Rozee, Butters, Duursma might end up going past someone like Pickett. Byrne-Jones had an excellent season and would be in on that but not on career for mine. Lycett v Nankervis is arguable but Nankervis has the better record 1v1.
Otherwise I think it is pretty comprehensive. Dixon v Lynch/Riewoldt, Jonas v Grimes, Ladhams v Balta, Rockliff v Prestia, Cotchin v Powell-Pepper, Houston v Short, Vlastuin v Hartlett, anyone arguing any of them? I'd be very surprised.

The idea that Hardwick turned Dustin and a bunch of scrappers into a premiership side is just fanciful. If you do the same exercise with Geelong you end up with about a 16/6 split our way. We had a very talented squad in those premiership years and certainly much, much better than Port.

 

[tigertim]

True, look how many triple premiership players Hardwick has been gifted, not to mention the dual premiership players. Poor Hinkley has none.

Port are more interested in getting the likes of Big Bad Charlie…..

 

[MD Jazz]

Ok, let's have a look at the two teams.

Port Adelaide VRichmond
B: [1] Tom Jonas, [12] Trent McKenzie, [17] Tom Clurey
B: [35] Nathan Broad, [2] Dylan Grimes, [21] Noah Balta

HB: [3] Ryan Burton, [33] Darcy Byrne-Jones, [8] Hamish Hartlett
HB:[7] Liam Baker, [1] Nick Vlastuin, [14] Bachar Houli

C[15] Karl Amon, [11] Tom Rockliff, [21] Xavier Duursma
C[33] Kamdyn McIntosh, [3] Dion Prestia, [50] Marlion Pickett

HF [7] Brad Ebert, [9] Robbie Gray, [18] Zak Butters
HF [34] Jack Graham, [11] Jason Castagna, [4] Dustin Martin

FF [4] Todd Marshall, [20] Connor Rozee, [22] Charlie Dixon
FF [19] Tom J. Lynch, [8] Jack Riewoldt, [29] Shai Bolton

[29] Scott Lycett, [16] Ollie Wines, [10] Travis Boak
[25] Toby Nankervis, [10] Shane Edwards, [9] Trent Cotchin

[2] Sam Powell-Pepper, [5] Dan Houston, [6] Steven Motlop, [38] Peter Ladhams
[12] David Astbury, [15] Jayden Short, [17] Daniel Rioli, [23] Kane Lambert

Here's my combined team:
B: Astbury Grimes Broad
HB: Short Vlastuin Houli
C: Boak Prestia Pickett
HF Gray Lynch Martin
FF Bolton Riewoldt Rioli
R Nankervis Wines Cotchin
I/C Edwards Lambert Baker Balta

I'm looking at it through the lens of career, not season, so it is poosible some of those young guys like Rozee, Butters, Duursma might end up going past someone like Pickett. Byrne-Jones had an excellent season and would be in on that but not on career for mine. Lycett v Nankervis is arguable but Nankervis has the better record 1v1.
Otherwise I think it is pretty comprehensive. Dixon v Lynch/Riewoldt, Jonas v Grimes, Ladhams v Balta, Rockliff v Prestia, Cotchin v Powell-Pepper, Houston v Short, Vlastuin v Hartlett, anyone arguing any of them? I'd be very surprised.

The idea that Hardwick turned Dustin and a bunch of scrappers into a premiership side is just fanciful. If you do the same exercise with Geelong you end up with about a 16/6 split our way. We had a very talented squad in those premiership years and certainly much, much better than Port.

If we were so much better why were we the underdog in that game?

The underdog in the 2017 finals series?

The underdog in 2020?

There is no doubt a philosophical change from end 2016 to 2017 was the catalyst for our improvement. Hardwick led that.

To argue Hinkley would have done just as well is impossible to prove.

Hinkley has had his opportunity to achieve similar success given their strong H&A form over a number of seasons. That he hasn't been able to get the best out of his players in finals is telling.

 

[CarnTheTiges]

If we were so much better why were we the underdog in that game?

The underdog in the 2017 finals series?

The underdog in 2020?

There is no doubt a philosophical change from end 2016 to 2017 was the catalyst for our improvement. Hardwick led that.

To argue Hinkley would have done just as well is impossible to prove.

Hinkley has had his opportunity to achieve similar success given their strong H&A form over a number of seasons. That he hasn't been able to get the best out of his players in finals is telling.

In 2020 they led the ladder from start to finish and the situation gave them a significant home ground advantage, yet Ken still couldn’t get it done. Many of Port’s supporters want him gone.
I don’t know where White’s issues come from. My take on his departure was that we’d offered him a year and Port offered 3. We wouldn’t budge and he understandably took the Port deal. With us White seemed to have a lot of injuries, and that may have influenced the length of our deal. White had one good year with Port (2014), then injuries struck and he limped to the end of his career. Plenty in the media piled onto us in 2014 for letting him go, no one ever mentioned that we intelligently managed our list when White’s body didn’t let him back 2014 up.

 

[Tenacious]

Played 150 afl games. Need some ability and self determination to do that.

That’s fair
Not saying he had no ability - just not nearly as much as he and his old man apparently thought he had.

 

[The Big Richo]

If we were so much better why were we the underdog in that game?

The underdog in the 2017 finals series?

The underdog in 2020?

There is no doubt a philosophical change from end 2016 to 2017 was the catalyst for our improvement. Hardwick led that.

To argue Hinkley would have done just as well is impossible to prove.

Hinkley has had his opportunity to achieve similar success given their strong H&A form over a number of seasons. That he hasn't been able to get the best out of his players in finals is telling.

Being an underdog is about form. Port had a better season in 2020 and were playing at home.

You could also say Hinkley got a team with much less talent to a point beyond where their capabilities should have been and very much got the best out of them, but ultimately didn't have the talent to win. When you look at those two teams on paper, they shouldn't be within 10 goals, let alone top of the ladder and losing a prelim by a whisker. Maybe that is coaching, maybe it isn't.

These things are all just speculation and opinion, which is what makes them so interesting, but for me if you swap coaches in that game you still get the same result.

 

[taztiger4]

Why? Hardwick's not a wizard, he had very talented players to work with.

Very different styles of management but both equally loved by their players. I'd argue Hinkley has him covered in the box. Can't see what we would lose that would make us a worse team, it's a like for like swap.

I had the good fortune to sit in the box with Dimma & IMO he IS a wizard (tactically & as a man manager)

Yes, he had very talented players to work with, he also had numerous players not so talented

 

[Dont Argue]

Ok, let's have a look at the two teams.

Port Adelaide VRichmond
B: [1] Tom Jonas, [12] Trent McKenzie, [17] Tom Clurey
B: [35] Nathan Broad, [2] Dylan Grimes, [21] Noah Balta

HB: [3] Ryan Burton, [33] Darcy Byrne-Jones, [8] Hamish Hartlett
HB:[7] Liam Baker, [1] Nick Vlastuin, [14] Bachar Houli

C[15] Karl Amon, [11] Tom Rockliff, [21] Xavier Duursma
C[33] Kamdyn McIntosh, [3] Dion Prestia, [50] Marlion Pickett

HF [7] Brad Ebert, [9] Robbie Gray, [18] Zak Butters
HF [34] Jack Graham, [11] Jason Castagna, [4] Dustin Martin

FF [4] Todd Marshall, [20] Connor Rozee, [22] Charlie Dixon
FF [19] Tom J. Lynch, [8] Jack Riewoldt, [29] Shai Bolton

[29] Scott Lycett, [16] Ollie Wines, [10] Travis Boak
[25] Toby Nankervis, [10] Shane Edwards, [9] Trent Cotchin

[2] Sam Powell-Pepper, [5] Dan Houston, [6] Steven Motlop, [38] Peter Ladhams
[12] David Astbury, [15] Jayden Short, [17] Daniel Rioli, [23] Kane Lambert

Here's my combined team:
B: Astbury Grimes Broad
HB: Short Vlastuin Houli
C: Boak Prestia Pickett
HF Gray Lynch Martin
FF Bolton Riewoldt Rioli
R Nankervis Wines Cotchin
I/C Edwards Lambert Baker Balta

I'm looking at it through the lens of career, not season, so it is poosible some of those young guys like Rozee, Butters, Duursma might end up going past someone like Pickett. Byrne-Jones had an excellent season and would be in on that but not on career for mine. Lycett v Nankervis is arguable but Nankervis has the better record 1v1.
Otherwise I think it is pretty comprehensive. Dixon v Lynch/Riewoldt, Jonas v Grimes, Ladhams v Balta, Rockliff v Prestia, Cotchin v Powell-Pepper, Houston v Short, Vlastuin v Hartlett, anyone arguing any of them? I'd be very surprised.

The idea that Hardwick turned Dustin and a bunch of scrappers into a premiership side is just fanciful. If you do the same exercise with Geelong you end up with about a 16/6 split our way. We had a very talented squad in those premiership years and certainly much, much better than Port.

Impossible comparison.
You’ve completely discounted development. A player can only reach his ultimate potential in the right environment and with the right coaching. Who knows how good each player would be at different clubs under different coaches?
One very credentialed ex coach/media commentator ( and many agreed ) said that Richmond was the worst team to ever win a Premiership. That alludes to great coaching if you accept any of that stuff.
Only fair comparison is which coach has won 3 Premierships and which one hasn’t. That’s how history will look at it. Over win/loss averages included

 

[ceehook2]

Played 150 afl games. Need some ability and self determination to do that.

far from a dud but you have to look at who on our list he was competing with for a midfield/wing role
I think fair to say this lot were better then ,
Lids , Dusty , Cotch , B Ellis , Grigg , Edwards , Dan Jackson , Jake King

this lot he might claim he was above them
conca , Matt Dea, Miles , Matt Thomas(r) , Aaron edwards

they didn't last long and Matt was offrered a 3yr contract ? , which looks like it had him pretty close to the right place in the pecking order

he was often referred to as an athlete and not a "footballer" and would make mistakes that reinforced it
I did get a feel he might have been on the outer with in the list , but thats purely a guess

Dimma and his offsiders hadn't got the Richmond Man thing fully up and running . I wonder if he arrived at Punt Rd 4-5 years later
it would have been a very different situation , both football and culture ?

 

[CarnTheTiges]

Port’s list were really talked up in the media when White went there. There were media reports how he was only one of their top 5 fastest players, yet when he left Richmond he was considered one of the quickest in the comp, so Port had the 5 quickest blokes in the AFL? Yeah, right. Plenty said they were going to break through for a flag, yet it all went pear shaped quickly. They’re flat track bullies and pretenders. Have been for Ken’s entire time there.

 

[hutstar]

Ok, let's have a look at the two teams.

Port Adelaide VRichmond
B: [1] Tom Jonas, [12] Trent McKenzie, [17] Tom Clurey
B: [35] Nathan Broad, [2] Dylan Grimes, [21] Noah Balta

HB: [3] Ryan Burton, [33] Darcy Byrne-Jones, [8] Hamish Hartlett
HB:[7] Liam Baker, [1] Nick Vlastuin, [14] Bachar Houli

C[15] Karl Amon, [11] Tom Rockliff, [21] Xavier Duursma
C[33] Kamdyn McIntosh, [3] Dion Prestia, [50] Marlion Pickett

HF [7] Brad Ebert, [9] Robbie Gray, [18] Zak Butters
HF [34] Jack Graham, [11] Jason Castagna, [4] Dustin Martin

FF [4] Todd Marshall, [20] Connor Rozee, [22] Charlie Dixon
FF [19] Tom J. Lynch, [8] Jack Riewoldt, [29] Shai Bolton

[29] Scott Lycett, [16] Ollie Wines, [10] Travis Boak
[25] Toby Nankervis, [10] Shane Edwards, [9] Trent Cotchin

[2] Sam Powell-Pepper, [5] Dan Houston, [6] Steven Motlop, [38] Peter Ladhams
[12] David Astbury, [15] Jayden Short, [17] Daniel Rioli, [23] Kane Lambert

Here's my combined team:
B: Astbury Grimes Broad
HB: Short Vlastuin Houli
C: Boak Prestia Pickett
HF Gray Lynch Martin
FF Bolton Riewoldt Rioli
R Nankervis Wines Cotchin
I/C Edwards Lambert Baker Balta

I'm looking at it through the lens of career, not season, so it is poosible some of those young guys like Rozee, Butters, Duursma might end up going past someone like Pickett. Byrne-Jones had an excellent season and would be in on that but not on career for mine. Lycett v Nankervis is arguable but Nankervis has the better record 1v1.
Otherwise I think it is pretty comprehensive. Dixon v Lynch/Riewoldt, Jonas v Grimes, Ladhams v Balta, Rockliff v Prestia, Cotchin v Powell-Pepper, Houston v Short, Vlastuin v Hartlett, anyone arguing any of them? I'd be very surprised.

The idea that Hardwick turned Dustin and a bunch of scrappers into a premiership side is just fanciful. If you do the same exercise with Geelong you end up with about a 16/6 split our way. We had a very talented squad in those premiership years and certainly much, much better than Port.

Most of your ratings are because Hardwick turned good players into great role players, and frankly you're pumping up the Tiges. That Port side is really strong and I'd have many of their forwards and mids over ours on talent.
Port, whatever it is - culture, leadership, Coaching - not sure - but they've not reached their potential. I'm not saying they've thrown away a dynasty but in 2020 they totally blew a GF appearance at the very least, and it's not their only miss.
On the flipside, Richmond could have been the same or worse. Not opinion, but thoroughly proven - we lived it. It's not a side you could say had chronically underachieved - there's not many high draft picks in our side, and many of the ones we do have are retreads. Something clicked and credit has to go to the leadership, list management and gameday strategy. Not all Hardwick for sure, but he's the guy who has signed off all the moves. I don't see a historical equivilency where Hinkley makes enough of the same moves to take us to a premiership, let alone three of them. It's all conjecture, but that's my opinion.