Marriage Equality | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Marriage Equality

gutfull said:
gay schools coming your way bank on it ...

They sound just like what our education system needs...

Gay
light-hearted and carefree.
"Nan had a gay disposition and a very pretty face"
synonyms: cheerful, cheery, merry, jolly, light-hearted, mirthful, jovial, glad, happy, bright, in good spirits, in high spirits, joyful, elated, exuberant, animated, lively, sprightly, vivacious, buoyant, bouncy, bubbly, perky, effervescent, playful, frolicsome; More
antonyms: gloomy
 
Giardiasis said:
You might want to double check that.

PRE fact check alert!

Spot on Gia, it was that font of thoughtful good sense:
gutfull said:
Yeah most of those countries are pretty much *smile*ed....the worlds gone mad ...gay schools coming your way bank on it ...
 
Interestingly. I saw an article yesterday that was about a pair of siblings, who are in an intimate relationship in the US and want the option of getting married, but it is illegal. They are a half brother and sister who weren't brought up together (share a father, but different mothers). Many of the arguments they were putting forward - "Love is love", "They should have the right to marry whoever they love", "Current laws discriminate against them", "It's no one else's business to judge" etc sounded eerily similar to everything we are hearing in the current SSM debate.

Now, while I find it absurdly ridiculous when we hear those from the 'no' camp (Bernardi and co) relating SSM to people marrying objects, or animals or children (not the slightest relevance, given that you're not talking consenting adult human parties), I find it perplexing that proponents also get so offended by the incestuous or polyamorous relationships being brought up as a Devil's Advocate line of questioning. Nearly like they are so desperate to discredit any points made against, that they are prepared to be hypocritical to the extreme. Not sure how one can argue that anyone should have the right to marry whoever they choose, but then still make exceptions for those that want to marry a close blood relation or more than one person - as I say who are we to judge if all parties are consenting adults? It's not really "Marriage Equality" unless anyone can marry anyone they want.

The only reason I can see is that it is considered taboo (as same sex relationships were considered not so long ago). People often say, because of the chance of genetic defects. However a couple of points here. Apparently the chances of genetic defects, while elevated to the general population, are largely overstated in incestuous breeding. Additionally, are you going to also ban people with inheritable genetic defects to marry and breed? And besides, what's to stop an incestuous couple, worried about the chances of defects, from doing what a lesbian couple does and have children via donor sperm? And what about same sex siblings or half siblings?

The point of all of this? I don't think we can dismiss outright the slippery slope arguments, as dominant narrative does. It's disingenuous to argue that this doesn't open avenues for marriage to evolve further. Now in saying this, I'm not arguing for, or against SSM or indeed, further movement in what constitutes marriage (such as incest). More, it's an interesting point of reference.
 
The question is on the form is clear - do you support the right of SS couples to marry? If you agree with that, mark the survey yes. If you disagree, mark it no.

Slippery slopes, freedom of speech, what about religious freedoms etc is all FUD and woo being spread by the negative side because they know they can't win their case without throwing up bizarre hypotheticals.
 
antman said:
The question is on the form is clear - do you support the right of SS couples to marry? If you agree with that, mark the survey yes. If you disagree, mark it no.

Slippery slopes, freedom of speech, what about religious freedoms etc is all FUD and woo being spread by the negative side because they know they can't win their case without throwing up bizarre hypotheticals.
But then on the other side antman, the yes side keep asking me if I support "Marriage Equality". If I support their arguments of what constitutes "Marriage Equality" I can't then hypocritically deny the right of other consenting adults, in other relationship formats to marry.

I don't know how you can infer that it is a bizarre hypothetical I put forward. I deliberately made the distinction between relationships between consenting adults and truly bizarre hypotheticals (such as objects, animals and children) that the Bernardi types put forward. Perhaps the couple in the article I read do have as much right to marry as same sex couples do. We can't argue on the one hand for the right for consenting people to marry whoever they choose, but then make exceptions.

I'm still undecided between voting yes or abstaining from voting. But in order to vote yes, in voting for the right for SS couples to marry, I am also accepting that this is a land mark moment where one must also be open to further movement in the goal posts. To not accept this is denial, or alternatively, being deliberately disingenuous.
 
So if there is a movement to legalise incestuous relationships then that too would have to be voted on by parliament to change the legislation. But it would a separate amendment and a separate issue.

If one day society has changed so much that a majority of parliamentarians would vote for that, great.

Until then its a bizarre hypothetical that would have zero chance of success in either a parliamentary vote or a "plebescite".
 
Panthera Tigris has pretty much nailed why this isn't marriage equality, no matter how much the yes side try to frame it as such or think that calling something bizarre somehow removes the contradiction.
 
Panthera Tigris said:
But then on the other side antman, the yes side keep asking me if I support "Marriage Equality". If I support their arguments of what constitutes "Marriage Equality" I can't then hypocritically deny the right of other consenting adults, in other relationship formats to marry.

I don't know how you can infer that it is a bizarre hypothetical I put forward. I deliberately made the distinction between relationships between consenting adults and truly bizarre hypotheticals (such as objects, animals and children) that the Bernardi types put forward. Perhaps the couple in the article I read do have as much right to marry as same sex couples do. We can't argue on the one hand for the right for consenting people to marry whoever they choose, but then make exceptions.

I'm still undecided between voting yes or abstaining from voting. But in order to vote yes, in voting for the right for SS couples to marry, I am also accepting that this is a land mark moment where one must also be open to further movement in the goal posts. To not accept this is denial, or alternatively, being deliberately disingenuous.

Do you agree that heterosexual couples should be allowed to get married? This is where all those arguments start from.
 
It's Marriage Equality for same sex couples, as the Yes campaign makes abundantly clear. It's not marriage equality for pets, farm animals, brothers and sisters and door knobs.

Feel free to run campaigns for those edge cases though. And yes, they are still bizarre hypotheticals.
 
Giardiasis said:
No it is marriage for same sex couples, it is not equality.

It would give same sex couples the same right to marry as hetero couples currently enjoy. Therefore it's equality of marriage rights for same sex couples with hetero couples.

What's your next obtuse semantic digression?
 
The survey was designed to create conflict and it is working. The result will be unscientific and prone to manipulation. It is non binding and means nothing.

Polls which are more accurate show 66-70% are happy to allow same sex couples to marry.

If you believe in marriage equality vote green or labor next election. Labor will have a position in support. Libs in opposition will have a conscience vote. The bill would pass.
 
Giardiasis said:
No it is marriage for same sex couples, it is not equality.

Ok. Considering government is involved in marriage and will continue to be regardless of this vote, do you think people in SS relationships should be allowed to marry?
 
OK Gia , now let's extend your argument to the example of giving aboriginal people equal rights to vote in Australia.

In your world that wouldn't be "voting equality" because we didn't extend the same voting rights to Labradors, soft toys, cars, trees and fire hydrants.
 
antman said:
OK Gia , now let's extend your argument to the example of giving aboriginal people equal rights to vote in Australia.

In your world that wouldn't be "voting equality" because we didn't extend the same voting rights to Labradors, soft toys, cars, trees and fire hydrants.

I assume No voters think Aboriginals should never have been allowed to marry non-Aboriginals. After all traditionally in Australia they could not.
 
Do we also go through the same process for polygamous marriage equality which is common place in many parts of the world?

Do we just change the marriage act to include two or more consenting adults full stop?

Do we also redefine the term adult while we're at it?
 
antman said:
It's Marriage Equality for same sex couples, as the Yes campaign makes abundantly clear. It's not marriage equality for pets, farm animals, brothers and sisters and door knobs.

Feel free to run campaigns for those edge cases though. And yes, they are still bizarre hypotheticals.
Although Antman, one could make the argument, if you equated the specific relationship in my original post (the half brother and half sister in an intimate relationship) - to marrying pets, farm animals, random objects - that it may come across to them as bigoted by trivialising their relationship.

As I say, I specifically distinguished bizarre examples not relating to consenting adult human parties, from those that do.
 
antman said:
OK Gia , now let's extend your argument to the example of giving aboriginal people equal rights to vote in Australia.

In your world that wouldn't be "voting equality" because we didn't extend the same voting rights to Labradors, soft toys, cars, trees and fire hydrants.
It wouldn't be voting equality because it is still discriminatory, although not for the reasons you've hysterically outlined.
 
Brodders17 said:
Ok. Considering government is involved in marriage and will continue to be regardless of this vote, do you think people in SS relationships should be allowed to marry?
I don't consider the government as legitimate, which is a prerequisite to forming an answer to your question.