Justice?

[Disco08]

That's a pathetic argument. When you can say that you know enough about the case to be 100% certain that Milat was responsible for these murders then you can start ranting.

 

[AngryAnt]

IIRC my understanding of the Milat case was that the evidence totally conclusively proved his involvement. There was some evidence that someone else may have been involved, and the defence tried to run a case based on that fact - because it cast some doubt on exactly who did what and so on. The jury rejected this - even though another person may have been involved Milat's guilt was found beyond a reasonable doubt.

Having said that Milat is still entitled to whatever legal recourse is offered to anyone else under NSW and Federal law.

 

[Disco08]

That's actually a long way from the truth ant, but like I said this isn't the Milat thread so it's not really worth discussing.

 

[AngryAnt]

That's actually a long way from the truth ant, but like I said this isn't the Milat thread so it's not really worth discussing.

Yeah, it's only my recollection, not based on any deep knowledge.

 

[Disco08]

It's not so much that the evidence presented wasn't quite damning, because it was. It's more the validity of the evidence and what was left out at the time and what has been suppressed since that raises questions.

 

[Liverpool]

That's a pathetic argument. When you can say that you know enough about the case to be 100% certain that Milat was responsible for these murders then you can start ranting.

I don't think Joanne Collins's parents would think it was a "pathetic argument".
What annoys me Disco, is that people seem more concerned about the rights of the criminal, than the rights of the victims and their families.

And I don't need to know 100% about the case....the people that count do, and they found him guilty,and sentenced him to 7 life terms.
That is enough for me...instead of digging around for conspiracy theories and other fairy tales.

Check it out mate:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/milat/14.html

IIRC my understanding of the Milat case was that the evidence totally conclusively proved his involvement. There was some evidence that someone else may have been involved, and the defence tried to run a case based on that fact - because it cast some doubt on exactly who did what and so on. The jury rejected this - even though another person may have been involved Milat's guilt was found beyond a reasonable doubt.
Having said that Milat is still entitled to whatever legal recourse is offered to anyone else under NSW and Federal law.

Antman,
We have some differences of opinion, but you are right on this one...maybe Disco should read this, it backs up what you are saying:

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/predators/milat/15.html

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I'm not 100% certain he's innocent, but I am 100% certain that he hasn't been afforded his rights and that there is a lot of evidence which is contrary to his guilt. So in that respect I think under the innocent until proven guilty justice system employed in Australia he should have had his appeal heard a long time ago and all the available evidence should be taken into consideration before a verdict is declared.

O.k...that's your opinion.

It would be interesting to hear the opinion of Ian and Jaquie Collins, whose daughter Joanne, had been stabbed viciously in the heart and lungs with one wound so deep that it had cut deep into her spine.
The cut to the spinal-cord was done before the fatal ones, therefore rendering her incapacitated while Ivan Milat did what he wanted with her.

And you want to talk about how Milat hasn't been afforded his rights?

Well, you tell me about the rights of Joanne and the other 6 backpackers who were killed in the most sadistic and barbaric way....when did he afford these people their rights.......to simply live?

The problem is that the accused must be afforded the right of a fair trial to ascertain their guilt beyond reasonable doubt. If that hasn't occurred then there will be question marks over the guilt of that individual.

You can make your emotive arguments all you like, but they are avoiding Disco's argument. I am sure Disco feels just as disgusted as you about the details of the crime and if Milat was found guilty according to the laws of this land in a fair and open trial then he deserves the penalty that such a brutal crime carries.

It seems like you were waiting for Disco to suggest that Milat shouldn't be imprisoned so that you could spew out your 'what about the victim!' speech. That avoids the crux of the argument though.

FWIW I know nothing about the details of the trial and, thus, am not weighing in on whether it was fair or otherwise.

 

[Disco08]

You use a generic link to a completely outdated piece of literature by a police journalist which conveniently omits crucial facts and have the hide to tell me I should do more reading? Come on. I do know what the official government and NSW police version of events is.

I don't think Joanne Collins's parents would think it was a "pathetic argument".
What annoys me Disco, is that people seem more concerned about the rights of the criminal, than the rights of the victims and their families.

Joanne Walters Liverpool. If you going to make a statement that someone deserves to die I think you should at least have rudimentary knowledge of the case.

This argument has nothing to do with the rights of the victims' families. They obviously deserve all the support they can get no matter who the killer is.

That is enough for me...instead of digging around for conspiracy theories and other fairy tales.

That's the problem. I can tell you that there are a number of facts which dispute Milat's guilt, yet you're quite happy to discount them out of hand as conspiracy theories or fairy tales. If you're so willing to judge someone I think you should at least do the research required to gain a proper understanding of the case in question.

 

[Liverpool]

The problem is that the accused must be afforded the right of a fair trial to ascertain their guilt beyond reasonable doubt. If that hasn't occurred then there will be question marks over the guilt of that individual.
You can make your emotive arguments all you like, but they are avoiding Disco's argument. I am sure Disco feels just as disgusted as you about the details of the crime and if Milat was found guilty according to the laws of this land in a fair and open trial then he deserves the penalty that such a brutal crime carries.
It seems like you were waiting for Disco to suggest that Milat shouldn't be imprisoned so that you could spew out your 'what about the victim!' speech. That avoids the crux of the argument though.
FWIW I know nothing about the details of the trial and, thus, am not weighing in on whether it was fair or otherwise.

Panthera,
I don't know what the argument is about, to be honest.
He was found guilty.....7 times over, in fact.
That is all that counts.
And I will spew out my "victims" speech, because it sh!ts me that people are so quick to jump on their soapbox about the rights of a killer (whether is be Milat, Bryant, Knight, or Sharpe) and they deserve this and they deserve that.
It's very easy to say that when you or your family weren't one of the victims.
Ivan Milat was found guilty 7 times over....not once...not twice...SEVEN, and far as I'm concerned, these scumbags deserve to be treated with the same contempt they showed their victims and the same contempt they showed the families of the victims.

You use a generic link to a completely outdated piece of literature by a police journalist which conveniently omits crucial facts and have the hide to tell me I should do more reading? Come on. I do know what the official government and NSW police version of events is.

Yeah, i didn't think you would like that one.
Try this one, where some of the Milats speak:

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2004/s1236820.htm

Joanne Walters Liverpool. If you going to make a statement that someone deserves to die I think you should at least have rudimentary knowledge of the case.

Nah, you're spot on Disco....I had the name "Collins" in my head cause I was at work and dealing with that name.
Simple typo...I apologise.

This argument has nothing to do with the rights of the victims' families. They obviously deserve all the support they can get no matter who the killer is.

Oh, it has everything to do with the victim's family and their rights.
In fact, in a case such as this...or Bryant/Sharpe/Knight....the victim's families should have a say in their punishment, not some judge who hands down weak sentences.
For example, Julian Knight kills 7 people....those families should have a say in what happens to this cretin....but no, a judge hands down a 27 year sentence (he can get out in 2014)...how the hell can he get out EVER, after killing 7 people? ???
And don't forget the 19 wounded either, who have to live with disabilities and scars (physical and mental) for the rest of their lives because of what this person did.
You're right, in that these families should get support....but no support is ever going to help them get over that the killer is out walking the streets again.
So yes, it has everything to do with victim's families.

That's the problem. I can tell you that there are a number of facts which dispute Milat's guilt, yet you're quite happy to discount them out of hand as conspiracy theories or fairy tales. If you're so willing to judge someone I think you should at least do the research required to gain a proper understanding of the case in question.

If they were so important, why weren't they brought up in trial?
And don't tell me all this anyway....go and tell the cops, the lawyers, the judge, and the jury that they are all wrong.
I can't change the decision that was made.
All I can bring forward is that people like Milat, Byant, Sharpe, and Knight...should be executed.
They bring nothing to society, only sorrow and hardship for many innocent people....so why keep them alive?

 

[Disco08]

Yeah, i didn't think you would like that one.
Try this one, where some of the Milats speak:

Do you have any idea why Boris Milat and his wife are so eager to accuse his brother?

Oh, it has everything to do with the victim's family and their rights.
In fact, in a case such as this...or Bryant/Sharpe/Knight....the victim's families should have a say in their punishment, not some judge who hands down weak sentences.

Ridiculous. Why have judges? Why even have laws?

I agree the sentences should be more severe than what Knight received but that has nothing to do with this.

If they were so important, why weren't they brought up in trial?

You have so little faith in the court system to deal out proper justice, but at the same time you can't see how a trial can be manipulated?

I don't know what the argument is about, to be honest.

Well, you're the one that started it. All I asked is whether you had any actual knowledge outside of what you might have read in the paper of the Milat case seeing as you were making the statement that he should have been killed. A yes or no would have sufficed.

 

[1eyedtiger]

Since there appears to be a shadow of a doubt regarding Ivan Milat's guilt, I would like to know what others believe should happen with regards to Julian Knight .
There is no doubt about his guilt at all.

Re Julian Knight, I'm with Livers. Some people simply don't deserve to be alive.

 

[Disco08]

Yep, in the case of someone who has had a clear fair trial and legal process, or who admits their guilt then I can see the merits for the death penalty.

 

[Liverpool]

Do you have any idea why Boris Milat and his wife are so eager to accuse his brother?

No, I don't.
And you probably won't tell us anyway.

Oh, it has everything to do with the victim's family and their rights.
In fact, in a case such as this...or Bryant/Sharpe/Knight....the victim's families should have a say in their punishment, not some judge who hands down weak sentences.

Ridiculous. Why have judges? Why even have laws?

After someone is found guilty (let's say Knight), then why is it ridiculous to let the victims have a say in a punishment that might ease their pain somewhat?
Interesting article on this and why I advocate this style:

http://archive.oxfordmail.net/1999/12/23/80040.html

And Aborigines use a similar style:

http://www.aic.gov.au/topics/indigenous/interventions/alternatives/circle.html

So I don't understand why this is "ridiculous".
While someone like Milat may not get the death sentence contrary to my individual opinion, the resultant sentence would be handed down by the victims, and really, it is they who should have the biggest say in the punishment of the offender.....not you, nor I, or a judge.

You have so little faith in the court system to deal out proper justice, but at the same time you can't see how a trial can be manipulated?

I haven't questioned the actual justice system...what I get stroppy about on this thread is that when someone is found guilty, the judge is not harsh enough when sentencing.
The sentences do not match the crime.
That is my main problem.
As for manipulating trials, especially one of the most talked about in our history....I'm sorry Disco, but I think you are drawing a long bow now.

Yep, in the case of someone who has had a clear fair trial and legal process, or who admits their guilt then I can see the merits for the death penalty.

YES!
We got there!!!! artyfest :boldyellow artyfest
That's what I said in my initial post.... :...so it seems then, that it is only Milat we have a difference of opinion on.......well, I can live with that!

 

[jb03]

Did the backpacker murders cease after Milat was locked up?

 

[Disco08]

No. Ever heard of the failed Innocence Panel jimbob?

 

[Disco08]

YES!
We got there!!!! artyfest :boldyellow artyfest
That's what I said in my initial post.... :...so it seems then, that it is only Milat we have a difference of opinion on.......well, I can live with that!

No, in your initial post you said Ivan Milat deserved to die. That's why I asked if you knew much about the case, which you obviously don't. As I said all you had to do was say 'no' and none of this conversation would have taken place.

As for manipulating trials, especially one of the most talked about in our history....I'm sorry Disco, but I think you are drawing a long bow now.

If you haven't done any research on the topic, how are you coming to that conclusion? Through generalisations only?

 

[jb03]

No. Ever heard of the failed Innocence Panel jimbob?

No I haven't patsy. Got a link?

If the "backpackers murders" kept going, how long for and how many subsequent victims were there?

 

[Tigerdog]

Judd having five daughters.

 

[Disco08]

No I haven't patsy. Got a link?

If the "backpackers murders" kept going, how long for and how many subsequent victims were there?

No, the only site that I was aware of that used to display this information with evidential support was taken down when it's administrator was found dead in his home.

I do have this link but it offers no supporting evidence. It basically claims that the Innocence Panel, which was established to use new technology such as DNA analysis to re-examine old crimes where possible found DNA from the backpacker cases did not match Ivan Milat's, or that of any other member of the Milat family and has since been identified on a subsequent murder victim.

I can't tell you exactly how many have died in the area between Liverpool and Belanglo since Milat's imprisonment, but it's a few.

 

[Liverpool]

YES!
We got there!!!! artyfest :boldyellow artyfest
That's what I said in my initial post.... :...so it seems then, that it is only Milat we have a difference of opinion on.......well, I can live with that!

No, in your initial post you said Ivan Milat deserved to die. That's why I asked if you knew much about the case, which you obviously don't. As I said all you had to do was say 'no' and none of this conversation would have taken place.

Yes...in my initial post I said Milat AND Sharpe, Knight, and Bryant all deserved to die (I posted links of their crimes), and I stand by that.
You have said that in cases where someone admits their guilt, then you saw merits in the death penalty....well, Knight did....Sharpe did....so what do you think should be their pubishment?
And Bryant....hmmm...there are equally as many conspiracy theories about him as there are about Milat... :-X

You like this one:

http://www.shootersnews.addr.com/snpaalibi2.html

As for manipulating trials, especially one of the most talked about in our history....I'm sorry Disco, but I think you are drawing a long bow now.

If you haven't done any research on the topic, how are you coming to that conclusion? Through generalisations only?

Because what you are saying is that dozens of people, ranging from police, prosecutors, detectives, etc are behind an innocent man taking the rap for what a serial killer has done....and if we believe you, then that killer is still loose.
I put this theory in the same basket as little green men drawing crop circles, the CIA detonating explosives in the Twin Towers on 9/11, and the moon-landings were filmed in a studio.
Great story, makes you think....but at the end of the day, the evidence (if any) is flimsy and lightweight.