Let me put my position more clearly - the LIV is a sportswashing exercise sponsored by MBS to give the Saudi regime a form of legitimacy as they move towards a post-oil future, and to shore up support for himself in the short to medium term. Greg Norman is "setting up the business" if you want to use that form of words, but to say the golfers who sign up for the LIV aren't involved in establishing the LIV as a going sportswashing exercise because they only sign a contract with the LIV and take the money seems disingenuous to me.
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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Golf
- Thread starter Michael
- Start date
Let me put my position more clearly - the LIV is a sportswashing exercise sponsored by MBS to give the Saudi regime a form of legitimacy as they move towards a post-oil future, and to shore up support for himself in the short to medium term. Greg Norman is "setting up the business" if you want to use that form of words, but to say the golfers who sign up for the LIV aren't involved in establishing the LIV as a going sportswashing exercise because they only sign a contract with the LIV and take the money seems disingenuous to me.
It's a fair call, Antman but for me the problem is we are placing a burden on these guys that we don't expect of anyone else.
Yep, they are taking money from bad dudes with questionable morals and ethics but at the end of the day they are just doing a job to earn a living.
As I said before Indonesia put bullets through the hearts of a couple of young Aussie men not long ago, but I don't hear anyone demanding tourism to Bali cease.
On a smaller scale I've worked with Nike logos plastered all over me, with an organisation pumping the brand into kids left, right and centre but no-one mentions that we are all helping cultivate an image that glosses over kids in sweatshops sewing these t-shirts.
Our own club profits from misery and death via pokies and has a relationship with another ethically dubious company in Puma but none of us demand we cease and desist, well not in any meaningful way anyway.
It would be wonderful if we as a world community did make a stand against the corrupt and unethical at every level and blacklist them out of existence but ultimately as a society we choose comfort, convenience and wealth over the plight of our fellow human beings. I don't think we can ask golfers to be better than we are.
“Sports washing”. I’m amused by that term. Seems to be a term used carelessly by people who arent aware of their own, or others, circumstances and what they support or subscribe to directly or indirectly.
To that end what’s your view on the “business washing” performed by huge US oil companies who have formal business arrangements with the Saudi's for the supply of crude oil to the tune of tens of billions of dollars and to which most Americans then subscribe to indirectly ? Including Monahan, Chamblee etc. Or is that a more digestible or acceptable form of “washing” ? Sort of like dry cleaning instead AA ?
Or better still what’s your view on the PGA Tour - who obviously are the most vocal critics of the LIV players and making far flung associations such as 9/11 with them - and their direct support of golf events in China ? Or again, despite their own deplorable human rights record and other issues, is that also a more suitable form of “sports washing” ?
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How do you know Phil isn't donating a large portion of his wages to human rights organisations? Maybe that's his plan, use the saudi cash against them?
Exactly. And then throw in the hypocrisy factor and it really does all become a bit much in my personal opinion some of the accusations and references.
Actually think sportswashing has the opposite effect. Many more people are now aware of things like the murdered journalist than were before and the spotlight on the Saudis is huge. Imagine the reaction around LIV if something similar were to happen again.
Maybe being involved in sport like this is the best thing for human rights because it leaves them nowhere to hide.
Oh, I'm sure his publicity agents will be suggesting he do that pronto
Phil may already have punted a bit of it, they better not wait
If you are running the show do it however you reckon MD.
Be interesting to see how it works out, can always revert to normal transmission for the BO if it doesn't work for whatever reason.
Just a bit? Have you read the reports? One thing for sure - corruption, in all its myriad forms - is an incredibly virulent and durable business/human behaviour phenomenon.
Yeah, understand the point of view Richo.
Indonesia and Bali is not really a good example IMO - Indonesia is a democracy, Chan and Sukamaran were convicted and executed following Indonesian law. I'm extremely anti-death penalty but boycotting Indonesia becuase they have the death penalty means now you have boycott the US, China, Singapore and a host of other places. Clearly different to the Saudi investment fund trying to rehabilitate the Saudi regime through this (and other) initiatives.
I don't buy the "sportswashing doesn't work so therefore it's OK" argument either.
My sources tell me these values have been adjusted in the "mid range chance" of players to allow for a deeper application of the "high range chance" of players and then the possibilities of getting a full squad through the cut accordingly. But do it any way you wish Miles.
Scottie Scheffler 105
Justin Thomas 100
Rory McIlroy 95
Cameron Smith 90
Jon Rahm 85
Collin Morikawa 85
Jordan Spieth 85
Will Zalatoris 80
Patrick Cantlay 75
Matt Fitzpatrick 75
Xander Schauffele 75
Viktor Hovland 70
Shane Lowry 70
Dustin Johnston 70
Joaquin Niemann 65
Hideki Matsuyama 65
Sam Burns 60
Tony Finau 60
Brooks Koepka 60
Max Homa 55
Cameron Young 55
Sung Jae Im 55
Billy Horschel 50
Daniel Berger 50
Louis Oosthuizen 50
Tommy Fleetwood 45
Tyrrell Hatton 45
Corey Conners 45
Abraham Ancer 45
Bryson DeChambeau 45
Adam Scott 45
Jason Day 45
Jason Kokrak 40
Patrick Reed 40
Marc Leishman 35
Sergio Garcia 35
Webb Simpson 35
Justin Rose 35
Keegan Bradley 35
Talor Gooch 30
Aaron Wise 30
Mito Pereira 30
Gary Woodland 30
Seamus Power 28
Russell Henley 28
Davis Riley 28
Phil Mickelson 28
Harold Varner 27
Bubba Watson 27
Christiaan Bezuidenhout 27
Si Woo Kim 25
Kevin Na 25
Sebastian Munoz 25
KH Lee 22
Brian Harman 22
Luke List 22
Matt Kuchar 20
Robert MacIntyre 20
Kevin Kisner 20
Francesco Molinari 20
Harris English 18
Tom Hoge 18
Thomas Pieters 17
Alex Noren 17
Lucas Herbert 17
Victor Perez 16
Sepp Straka 16
Branden Grace 15
Joel Dahmen 15
Bernd Wiesberger 12
Erik Van Rooyen 12
Sam Horsfield 12
Adri Arnaus 10
Ryan Fox 10
Lee Westwood 10
Ryan Palmer 10
Denny McCarthy 10
Thorbjorn Olesen 10
Mackenzie Hughes 10
Ian Poulter 10
Min Woo Lee 10
Matt Jones
8
Cameron Tringale
8
Brendon Todd
8
Martin Kaymer
8
Kevin Chapple
8
Lanto Griffin
8
Scott Stallings
7
Stewart Cink
7
Carlos Ortiz
7
Kevin Streelman
7
Matthew NeSmith
5
Patrick Rodgers
5
Matt Wallace
5
Troy Merritt
5
Shaun Norris
5
Beau Hossler
5
Henrik Stenson
5
Rafa C-Bello
5
Guido Migliozzi
5
Wilco Nienaber
5
Charley Hoffman
5
Garrick Higgo
5
Kalle Samooja
4
Kurt Kitayama
4
Marcel Schneider
4
Taylor Montgomery
4
Nick Taylor
4
Joohyun Kim
4
Adam Schenk
4
Richard Bland
4
Andrew Novak
3
Andrew Putnam
3
Bo Hoag
3
Brian Stuard
3
Danny Lee
3
Roger Sloan
3
Hayden Buckley
3
Jim Furyk
3
James Piot
3
Keita Nakajima
3
Grayson Murray
2
Jediah Morgan
2
Junichiro Kozuma
2
Michael Thorbjornsen
2
Richard Mansell
2
Rikuya Hoshino
2
Satoshi Kodaira
2
Sean Crocker
2
Sebastian Soderberg
2
Wyndam Clark
2
Jonas Blixt
2
Will Besseling
2
Yannik Paul
2
Adrien Dumont
1
Austin Greaser
1
Ben Lorenz
1
Ben Silverman
1
Brandy Calkins
1
Brandon Matthews
1
Callum Tarren
1
Charles Reiter
1
Chris Naegel
1
Daijiro Izumida
1
Davis Shore
1
Fran Quinn
1
Fred Biondi
1
Harry Hall
1
Isaiah Salinda
1
Jesse Mueller
1
Keith Greene
1
Laird Shepherd
1
Luke Gannon
1
Matt McCarty
1
Matthys Dufue
1
Maxwell Moldovan
1
Nick Dunlap
1
Ryan Gerard
1
Sam Bennett
1
Sam Stevens
1
Sean Jacklin
1
Stewart Hagestad
1
Todd Sinnott
1
Tomoyaso Sugiyama
1
Travis Vick
1
seems like a bit of generalisation about people who use the term Redders. Personally I only invest in products/services that I consider ethical or at least "do no harm" - of course, opinions will vary on that. For example, I use Australian Ethical super and make active choices about which investment products within their portfolio I use. I could go with better performing funds that just invest in whatever, but I don't. That's not to humblebrag - conscious investment, product choice etc can be done by anyone if you want to do it. What's stopping you?
Nothing is perfect though. Right now I'm consulting to one of the big oil companies (boo) but I'm working only on roll-out of renewable technologies. If I was offered more money to work on oil/gas exploration/production/retail I wouldn't take it. That's my choice. Not everyone has as much choice in their work, I get that, but sorry, I can't feel the same way about extremely rich golfers who've decided to collaborate with the normalisation of the Saudi regime because they can earn more money doing it that way.
Oh, the US buying Saudi oil, propping up the Saudi regime, selling arms to the Saudis to pursue the war in Yemen totally sucks. It's *smile*. They shouldn't do it. What did you expect me to say?
As to consumers in the US, I'd say move away from oil/gas cars etc as fast as economically feasible - there's a million good reasons to do that, and not supporting the Saudis is just one of those reasons. There's still a difference in passively consuming gasoline at the pump where you don't even know as a consumer where it comes from, and actively choosing to collaborate with the Saudi regime to get rich though.
Definitely that is a form of sports washing too. I'm sure the PGA is as evil as *smile* too in their own ways, but I'm ignorant when it comes to golf. There are also degrees - TBR mentioned Richmond FCs reliance on pokies. I still pay RFC membership, but I'm anti-poker machines and happy to tell them that on membership surveys and whereever else I can. Is that hypocritical? Maybe.
PS Greg Norman is an evil *smile* as well, I'm with
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Jeez they are giving the players bagging LIV a lot of air time on the Live from The US Open coverage.
We are growing the game was a common theme - Billy Horschel is a typical brain dead yank.
All sanctimonious attitudes about sleeping well at night. With their hookers and coke I imagine.
We are growing the game was a common theme - Billy Horschel is a typical brain dead yank.
All sanctimonious attitudes about sleeping well at night. With their hookers and coke I imagine.
I think the only generalisation that applies in this situation Ant Farm is that the general population all have some sort of moral conflict going on in their lives - me, you (as you've admitted), everyone. So when certain individuals like the PGA Tour, its business partners and participants start throwing out the moral compass card I'm inclined to call bs, especially when those certain individuals:
a) hypocritically haven't applied the same values themselves over a long period of time;
b) surprise surprise....have a significant vested financial interest in denigrating those that they're challenging on the moral front and;
c) are using absurd references such as endorsing the 9/11 atrocities and what not.
Anyway, seems if what TBR is saying about crowds at the US Open cheering Phil Mickelson, then Americans are also seeing through the hypocritical smokescreen as well. Says something that Americans, so passionate about 9/11 and patriotic, aren't buying the whole moral compass card either. PGA Tour would do better to focus on getting their own house in order. Playing the moral card is doomed for blowback failure.
FWIW, unless I had a $200m carrot in front of me like Phil Mickelson reportedly has, then I wouldn't join the LIV. But one thing's for certain, I also wouldn't be throwing moral rhetoric and aspersions around like the financially motivated and hypocritical individuals I mentioned above are in respect of those who would join the LIV.
Foooooooooore !
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That's my point though, you and I both abhor the death penalty but we turn a blind eye to it when it comes to making money in Indonesia, (I own a villa in Bali) even when it involves Aussie kids.
Yep, it's a democracy (of sorts) but they still cane people for being gay, perform virginity tests on women in the armed forces and allow child marriage. There's a fella called Munir Thalib who's demise is not that different to Khashoggi.
I think it's an unfortunate byproduct of our shitty world that we often have to draw our line where it fits into our lives.
Sure, but its not just the PGA and other rich wonks. Plenty don't like those who collaborate with the Saudis.
No one is innocent but some are much less innocent then others. We all have moral conflicts but using that as justification for doing/saying nothing is just nihilism Redders.
Anyhoo, I've said my piece. Enjoy your golf.
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Being a golf thread that’s not really the argument here. The argument is that the PGA Tour and its cohorts aren’t in a strong position to be dispensing moral attacks on this particular issue. And as explained, they’re most definitely not. And a lot of people - myself included - aren’t subscribing to their attacks for said reasons either. They’d be better off defending or promoting their position in respect of the situation by illustrating their record on charity, growing the game, player welfare etc. etc.
What others that are independent of the Tour or don’t have an interest in golf may think of collaborating with the Saudis is another matter all together. Like I said I wouldn’t personally join the LIV but it wouldn’t be off the back of any moral directions from the PGA Tour that’s for sure.
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