Global Warming | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Global Warming

Abbott has really painted himself into a corner on this. He might be winning in the polls by fanning peoples legitimate lack of understanding of the issues, but where does he go if he gets up? Its the most cynical political campaign I can remember, Abbott doesn't buy any of the guff he's spouting. . Most of the Liberals, and big business, know CC is real and something needs to be done, and most of them know that a tax is most efficient way to do it. Abbotts plan involves politicians and government bureaucrats designing solutions, I'm sure all will agree, its a recipe for disaster.
 
tigersnake said:
a) they haven't failed to demonstrate it. B) your 'given' is not actually a given. There won't be a huge impact. The denialists are the alarmists in this debate.
a) yes they have otherwise we would have an ETS by now. Canada wouldn't have elected the only party without a carbon tax/ets policy.
b) If you believe we must bring a halt to CO2 emissions within the next decade then you can not achieve that without a significant impact on growth, i.e. the standard of living. Thinking otherwise is simply delusional. We are told that we must stop using cheap power and instead use expensive forms of power that do not even provide the supply to meet demand. It is simply hoped that the technology will be developed, again delusional.
 
Sintiger said:
As an aside I agree having Kate Blanchett as a spokesperson was a mistake but how do you know she is leftist and if she is why is it relevant ?
This debate has so many times shifted to one of if you are left leaning you are for some form of carbon pricing mechanism and you accept the science of man's role in that and if you are right leaning you don't. It shouldn't have , and in most cases doesn't , anything to do with Political leanings . The creation of a political divide is exactly what Tony Abbott wants in this discussion and the Government is not helping change that .
I know she is a leftist because only a leftist would agree to do an ad that tries to get people to agree with government policy. Besides that, it is as just an obvious fact. It is relevant because leftist's like to think they have a unique understanding of the world, and generally like to fight for causes. Any opportunity to save the world is taken. The problem is that they are often wrong and don't seem to be accountable for their mistakes. Has Tim Flannery for example suffered any consequences for telling us that Sydney and Perth would be out of water by now a few years back? No, he gets a nice government salary to tell us what the government wants him to tell us. If an engineer made a mistake and a beam collapsed in a building, he would lose his job and more. So the point is a leftist can tell us how he/she thinks should be run, but chances are they haven't got a clue, and more to the point someone like CB is clearly driven by ideology, not by a good understanding of the scientific evidence.

The AGW debate is very much a left vs right debate, because the left see it as a mechanism to introduce socialism and big government. People don't need to know anything about the science to form an opinion, so it's not surprising that as a rule, leftists agree with it and righties don't.
 
Giardiasis said:
The AGW debate is very much a left vs right debate, because the left see it as a mechanism to introduce socialism and big government. People don't need to know anything about the science to form an opinion, so it's not surprising that as a rule, leftists agree with it and righties don't.

both sides of politics acknowledge the reality of climate change. (well the opposition does sometimes)
the gov's policy is to price carbon and allow the market to go from there.
the opposition's policy, now, is for the gov to be involved cherry pick some industries/companies to receive assistance, paying some polluters for any efficiencies they introduce. (previously it too thought pricing carbon was an effective mechanism.)

it would seem to me the coalitions policy is more about big government than pricing carbon.
i also fail to see how making polluters pay for polluting is socialism.
 
Re: Global Warming Thread for Deniers, Flat-Earthers and Bogans

Merveille said:
Glardiasis and other dummies, check this editorial out. An excellent piece with links included, reflecting what the Climate Change debate has become for those who Believe - and also what it is for us dummies..

http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/of_cate_and_hate/

Anyone heard of the Dunning Krueger effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
 
Brodders17 said:
both sides of politics acknowledge the reality of climate change. (well the opposition does sometimes)
the gov's policy is to price carbon and allow the market to go from there.
the opposition's policy, now, is for the gov to be involved cherry pick some industries/companies to receive assistance, paying some polluters for any efficiencies they introduce. (previously it too thought pricing carbon was an effective mechanism.)

it would seem to me the coalitions policy is more about big government than pricing carbon.
The left vs the right debate transcends ALP vs Libs.

Brodders17 said:
i also fail to see how making polluters pay for polluting is socialism.
What is the result of the carbon dioxide tax? Higher costs of business, which are passed onto the consumer. The consumers with lower incomes get some of the carbon dioxide tax revenue to help meet the increase in costs, while the consumers with higher incomes get nothing. Net result is a redistribution of money from higher income earners to lower income earners.
 
Re: Global Warming Thread for Deniers, Flat-Earthers and Bogans

Azza said:
Anyone heard of the Dunning Krueger effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Is that when you don a green and red striped sweater, kill a few kids, get murdered by their parents, and then start haunting their kids in their dreams?
 
Giardiasis said:
I know she is a leftist because only a leftist would agree to do an ad that tries to get people to agree with government policy. Besides that, it is as just an obvious fact. It is relevant because leftist's like to think they have a unique understanding of the world, and generally like to fight for causes. Any opportunity to save the world is taken. The problem is that they are often wrong and don't seem to be accountable for their mistakes. Has Tim Flannery for example suffered any consequences for telling us that Sydney and Perth would be out of water by now a few years back? No, he gets a nice government salary to tell us what the government wants him to tell us. If an engineer made a mistake and a beam collapsed in a building, he would lose his job and more. So the point is a leftist can tell us how he/she thinks should be run, but chances are they haven't got a clue, and more to the point someone like CB is clearly driven by ideology, not by a good understanding of the scientific evidence.

The AGW debate is very much a left vs right debate, because the left see it as a mechanism to introduce socialism and big government. People don't need to know anything about the science to form an opinion, so it's not surprising that as a rule, leftists agree with it and righties don't.
Oh dear . Leftist , rightist , centrist or a dentist is no interest to me . Its labels which try to put people in boxes . I prefer to try and think for myself.
Lets deal with a few of your points
1. You know Cate Blanchett is a leftist because only a leftist would do an ad that tries to get people to agree with Government Policy and also its an obvious fact . Give me a break , that’s not even an argument , it has no basis in fact . Try again but as I said it is not relevant.
2. Leftists think they have a unique understanding of the world. Everyone with a strong opinion thinks that no matter where they sit in the political spectrum.
3. Leftists like to fight for causes. Thank goodness that in this world we have had people who have fought for causes throughout history. Change generally happens because people fight for things, not in a physical sense but with the power of their minds and their arguments . Don’t you think that Sarah Palin is fighting for a cause , is she a leftist too?
4. People leaning left and people leaning right both make mistakes to say that one is accountable and the other isn’t is just plain wrong . I have no idea why Tim Flannery is relevant , is he a leftist too ? All I know is what he thinks about Climate change , he could be a raging rightie with the rest of his opinions as far as I know .
5. The rest is opinion not fact . Like lefties can tell us how things are to be run and the chances are they haven’t got a clue . In your opinion of course , so it’s not a well reasoned argument , it’s an opinion .
As for the last point I am speechless. Do you honestly think that this whole debate from the point of view of those who want to introduce a carbon price is about socialism and big Government ? I have read this thread and you seem to have a good handle on the facts that you use to put forward your argument , don’t demean that process by introducing this type of garbage straight from the Andrew Bolt playbook.
Whilst this debate is made out to be left versus right and it is politicised it will continue to be the sham that it is today . I may or may not agree with a carbon tax or the science of climate change , that is not relevant to my argument , but what I believe has no bearing on what I think of other government policies or of the policies of the opposition. I will not be put in a box because of what I think on one issue nor should anyone else.
 
Re: Global Warming Thread for Deniers, Flat-Earthers and Bogans

Tiger74 said:
Is that when you don a green and red striped sweater, kill a few kids, get murdered by their parents, and then start haunting their kids in their dreams?

:hihi

I think it's an affliction closely related to blogitis.
 
Giardiasis said:
The left vs the right debate transcends ALP vs Libs.

but it seems in this case it is the 'right' that favour big gov intervention and the 'left' that favour the market.
 
tigersnake said:
Thats not what I meant, but I do happen think that if you reject the prevailing science, if the cap fits...

Pretty sure thalidomide had the backing of the science fraternity. What happened with that one? Would've been nice for someone to reject the prevailing science there, don't you think...?
 
Freezer said:
Pretty sure thalidomide had the backing of the science fraternity. What happened with that one? Would've been nice for someone to reject the prevailing science there, don't you think...?

So science gets things wrong occasionally? Yes.

Why was thalidomide withdrawn? Because a causal link was shown between the drug and birth defects.

A tragic incident and one which has informed and improved methods used today for drug development.

You see, that is how science works - it changes to conform to the evidence - it constantly improves as we learn more.

How this relates to AGW is beyond me - unless of course you actually have some better evidence that you would like to share?
 
Delusional is a strong word g_man. But if you think I.m delusional, I.m ok with that.

Freezer. We had the thadidomide debate. This thread has history.

Re. G,s labels, I am a lefty, but I.m also a scientist, an I.m also a capitalist. Capitalism with the right sttings has amazing power.
At the moment its free to pollute. Its classic market failure. It needs re setting.
 
Tigersnake, you keep saying trust the consensus. I merely pointed out that the consensus isn't always right.

A casual link? Tell that to the thalidomide kids!
 
Sintiger said:
Oh dear . Leftist , rightist , centrist or a dentist is no interest to me . Its labels which try to put people in boxes . I prefer to try and think for myself.
Lets deal with a few of your points
1. You know Cate Blanchett is a leftist because only a leftist would do an ad that tries to get people to agree with Government Policy and also its an obvious fact . Give me a break , that’s not even an argument , it has no basis in fact . Try again but as I said it is not relevant.
2. Leftists think they have a unique understanding of the world. Everyone with a strong opinion thinks that no matter where they sit in the political spectrum.
3. Leftists like to fight for causes. Thank goodness that in this world we have had people who have fought for causes throughout history. Change generally happens because people fight for things, not in a physical sense but with the power of their minds and their arguments . Don’t you think that Sarah Palin is fighting for a cause , is she a leftist too?
4. People leaning left and people leaning right both make mistakes to say that one is accountable and the other isn’t is just plain wrong . I have no idea why Tim Flannery is relevant , is he a leftist too ? All I know is what he thinks about Climate change , he could be a raging rightie with the rest of his opinions as far as I know .
5. The rest is opinion not fact . Like lefties can tell us how things are to be run and the chances are they haven’t got a clue . In your opinion of course , so it’s not a well reasoned argument , it’s an opinion .
As for the last point I am speechless. Do you honestly think that this whole debate from the point of view of those who want to introduce a carbon price is about socialism and big Government ? I have read this thread and you seem to have a good handle on the facts that you use to put forward your argument , don’t demean that process by introducing this type of garbage straight from the Andrew Bolt playbook.
Whilst this debate is made out to be left versus right and it is politicised it will continue to be the sham that it is today . I may or may not agree with a carbon tax or the science of climate change , that is not relevant to my argument , but what I believe has no bearing on what I think of other government policies or of the policies of the opposition. I will not be put in a box because of what I think on one issue nor should anyone else.
Actually most of what I have argued comes from Thomas Sowell's Intellectuals and Society. If you want facts to back my opinion of leftists, give it a read.

CB is a leftist, you can't deny that. You can argue the relevance of that fact, sure.

Find me some socialists (or even greens voters) that do not believe in AGW = death to humanity and do not like the idea of a CO2 tax, and I might have cause to change my opinion.

If you don't want to deal with the political realities of the AGW debate, then you don't really have much chance of understanding it very well. Obviously the people that thought putting CB on an ad was a good idea didn't understand the nature of the political reality either.
 
Brodders17 said:
but it seems in this case it is the 'right' that favour big gov intervention and the 'left' that favour the market.
The Libs are putting out some form of policy because they think they need it to appease some of the voters. It should be abolished, it is a waste of money.

The ALPs idea of a market mechanism being right wing is ludicrous, the whole point of markets is that they are free. An artificially created market is totally against what a right winger would want.
 
Giardiasis said:
Actually most of what I have argued comes from Thomas Sowell's Intellectuals and Society. If you want facts to back my opinion of leftists, give it a read.

CB is a leftist, you can't deny that. You can argue the relevance of that fact, sure.

Find me some socialists (or even greens voters) that do not believe in AGW = death to humanity and do not like the idea of a CO2 tax, and I might have cause to change my opinion.

If you don't want to deal with the political realities of the AGW debate, then you don't really have much chance of understanding it very well. Obviously the people that thought putting CB on an ad was a good idea didn't understand the nature of the political reality either.
I didn't say that I didn't want to deal with the Political realities . What I said was that this should not be about left versus right . The fact that so many people such as yourself believe that it is about that makes me sad because it means that it is harder to just debate the issue for what it is .
I can't find a socialist who believes what you ask because i don't know any socialists but actually it doesn't prove anything ( I know a number of left leaning people but i would class none of them as socialists) . Just because people with left leaning ideas may have that view doesn't mean that those with right leaning ideas don't. I actually have quite a few friends who I would class as conservative in their views who believe in the need for a price on carbon .
Not everybody's views are as neat and tidy as you make out.
 
Freezer said:
Tigersnake, you keep saying trust the consensus. I merely pointed out that the consensus isn't always right.

A casual link? Tell that to the thalidomide kids!

Well, it's all over. Freezer just invalidated science. Back to the drawing board guys.

Freezer, suggest you read Thomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions". This explains how sciences works, grows, changes.

PS - it's causal, not casual.