Global Warming

[eZyT]

Very true, it often depends on how the business interests and the lobby groups

Agreed

A few times when the power went down for a few days. Overload from the grid in Victoria and due to storms brings the grid towers down on another occasion.

How common are islandings and transmission tower failures in the NEM?

In light of recent events, Dan Lee does some digging to find historical incidences of islandings and transmission tower failures.

wattclarity.com.au

I can’t find when the overload tripping then recloser issue. But I think from memory it was 5 days. Everything in fridges and freezers were gone. Some people had camping generators and saved some. But there were extenuating circumstances.


Mines not cheap, reasonably reliable in the outskirts of a capital city. It keeps going up and the FIT keeps getting reduced. But we have plenty of power outages. Not sure what all the causes are, but it happens . I’m lucky I’ve got 8.5kw of solar and a 10kw home battery. Lucky for me I’m a believer in renewables and have them installed. And use them.

Who has a “hatred of solar and wind?” I’ve yet to see any evidence of that on this thread.
No doubt there are plenty of shortcomings with solar and wind generation being weather dependent. But everyone knows that for a fact. There’s no”hate” to point that out or that they need a storage system to provide power 24/7 or when wind isn’t blowing or is too strong and the turbines need to be braked.

I have plenty of friends who use a Solarhart HWS. Over winter here south of Adelaide it’s just about entirely useless. Not quite but very early. They have to run it on (electrical mains) boost during the winter months. Great for over 8 months of the year, useless, especially for a household with over 2 people.Even further north in Broken Hill, Wilcannia and Menindee. Not as often but still for weeks at a time when there were days of inclement weather and mainly during the winter months.
But once again, a perfect example of solar being weather dependant. In good sunny conditions, just perfect.


That’s a no brainer. Perfect use of that technology. Some have solar charging battery operated cameras on watering troughs, tanks etc. and that’s a great use and help to a lot of people. Remote monitoring saves times, fuel etc.

Seems to be a lot of hate in your world. I don’t know of anyone that does “hate” the Bont.
A lot of the old style windmills (or wind operated pumps) on properties are quite picturesque.
Now these, I’m not sure of. That’s just visual pollution.It doesn’t do much for me, but I’m sure there are people who find them attractive.
View attachment 23200

Murdoch hates renewables.

Watch sky news and they say " so called renewables" and do the quotation marks.

Listen to the Facebook Zombies, the cookers, they think renewables are 'them' coming to conspire somehow. Big Solar, big wind. But somehow coal is a benevolent collective. They are utterly nuts.

There is a weird renewable hate out in the extremes, not far from where The LNP sit.

I dont mind the look of windfarms and i think its hard to prosecute a case they are uglier than open cut mines.

Like i said, if we build nuke reactors, stick them where the most people resisted wind turbines.

 

[eZyT]

Well l guess if Nuclear is safe for our submariners to sleep next to,it must be safe for us to use as well.Labor is on board and has no problem with it,
And with renewables needing replacing ,solar/wind/batteries etc every 10-20 years ,financially it makes more sense to go to nuclear power.
And nuclear power plants required a lot less land .well a huge amount less land.

Physical Footprint comparison | Greens for nuclear energy

greensfornuclear.energy

And in 2017 the CSIRO estimated the costs to go all renewable to be 1 trillion,there 21-22 report estimates around 500billion.
Nuclear is still cheaper,and we can't get the full costs so far for all the renewables rolled out and future projects along with subsides from the Labor government,either they don't know or don't want to reveal it.
They have been asked by reporters for the info,and none can give it.
In saying that ,they have a cheek asking for the costing of the nuke plants,when the coalition aren't in power YET

Technological innovation will drive change in Australia's energy system

Our analysis from 2017 estimated it would cost Australia a trillion dollars to convert to renewables. Our current estimate is $500 billion. A large part of this is because of recent technological innovation.

www.csiro.au

There is pretty broad consensus now that nukes are more expensive and a longer lead time than renewables.

Thats not to say they have no place

Just that Dutton is lying, quite simply so the blokes who donate to give him a shot at power, can sell more coal

He cares about one thing only.

 

[Willo]

Throttling Australia’s coking coal exports won’t help world decarbonise
10 Jan 2024|Stuart Love

In August, Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek signed off on a 50-year extension to the permit for the Gregory Crinum coal mine, 60 kilometres northeast of Emerald in Central Queensland.

This decision provoked outrage from climate campaigners and some high-profile parliamentarians. ‘There can be no new coal mines if we are to avoid dangerous climate change,’ said the Australia Institute.

But what would denying the permit achieve?

Global coal production is 8 gigatonnes (8 billion tonnes) annually. The three broad purposes are energy generation (5.3 Gt), steelmaking (1.1 Gt) and other industrial uses (1.6 Gt).

The Gregory Crinum mine produces metallurgical coal used in steelmaking.

Globally, steel production in 2022 was 1.9 Gt. The world may be near peak steel, but production will remain at around 1.5–2.0 Gt for many years. Its principal uses are in construction, mechanical equipment and the automotive industry. Considerable amounts of steel are also used in the construction of giant wind turbines for producing renewable energy.

There are no easy low-emission substitutes. Cement in construction also uses coal, has high emissions and is hard to abate.

About 30% of steel is produced through the lower emission electric arc furnace method. This method requires scrap as the principal feedstock. Scrap recycling rates are already high, and steel is durable. The life cycle of steel products determines scrap supply.

The other 70% (1.4 Gt) is produced by the blast furnace – basic oxygen furnace route. This method uses about 0.8 tonnes of coal for every tonne of crude steel produced.

The coal has three functions in this process. It provides carbon to the chemical reactions that reduce the iron ore to hot liquid metal, it generates heat to drive this reaction, and in the blast furnace a modified form of coal (coke) provides a porous structure that allows reactants to mix, gases to escape and hot metal to drain to the tap at the base.

What about ‘green’ steel? The most advanced project of scale is Boden in Sweden, where a consortium is raising €5 billion to build a plant targeting 5 million tonnes annually in 2030. It broke ground in 2022. If it succeeds, it will supply 0.3% of the global steel market in 2030.

In 2022, the International Energy Agency concluded: ‘Steel production will remain coal-based in the medium term. Other promising technological approaches, such as hydrogen-based steelmaking, are not yet available on the scale and at the cost required and are not expected in the coming years.’

Of the 1.9 Gt of steel produced in the world, 1.4 Gt is produced in Asia—1 Gt in China alone. China produces 90% of its crude steel via the blast furnace method. A transition to green steel will be centred in Asia.

But Asia also burns more than 5 Gt of coal for power generation and other industrial uses. The technological and commercial maturity of green power generation is far ahead of green steelmaking. Capital availability for decarbonisation is finite, and choices must be made. A dollar spent in Asia transitioning to green energy will buy far more CO2abatement, far sooner, than a dollar spent on green steel.
.

Throttling Australia's coking coal exports won’t help world decarbonise | The Strategist

In August, Environment Minister Tanya Plibersek signed off on a 50-year extension to the permit for the Gregory Crinum coal mine, 60 kilometres northeast of Emerald in Central Queensland. This decision provoked outrage from climate ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

It looks like Tanya, Albo and co don’t have a problem with coal use anywhere in the world for energy generation or steel making.
Except for the Australian market. Or the green population who want to get rid of it, because we don’t want to heat up here do we?

Obviously the demand for our coal is huge, keeping up with the supply demanded by the Asian market isn’t easy.
India alone will add 128 million tonnes by 2025. Equal to 20 Eraring power stations.

So I don’t think Dutton’s scaremongering about nuclear power, so his mates, the coal producers will benefit in Australia and more donors will pour in. The can sell it anywhere in the world for a premium.
Maybe Albo has jumped on the gravy train and has no scruples in allowing coal mining extensions throughout the land.i wonder if Albo and co know what it’s going to be used for? Or maybe they’re just plain hypocrites like the rest of the political circles

Fortunately that won’t have any bearing on emissions floating towards Australia or anywhere else in the world. It must just hover above India.

 

[bengal tigers]

Murdoch hates renewables.

Watch sky news and they say " so called renewables" and do the quotation marks.

Listen to the Facebook Zombies, the cookers, they think renewables are 'them' coming to conspire somehow. Big Solar, big wind. But somehow coal is a benevolent collective. They are utterly nuts.

There is a weird renewable hate out in the extremes, not far from where The LNP sit.

I dont mind the look of windfarms and i think its hard to prosecute a case they are uglier than open cut mines.

Like i said, if we build nuke reactors, stick them where the most people resisted wind turbines.

There is pretty broad consensus now that nukes are more expensive and a longer lead time than renewables.

Thats not to say they have no place

Just that Dutton is lying, quite simply so the blokes who donate to give him a shot at power, can sell more coal

He cares about one thing only.

Maybe look at some links ,you might be proven wrong .
Nukes will come out much cheaper than the total costs of all the renewables,and will last longer,and thats what it's about long term power

It's amazing how many times blaming the Murdoch media gets used on this site .

 

[eZyT]

Maybe look at some links ,you might be proven wrong .
Nukes will come out much cheaper than the total costs of all the renewables,and will last longer,and thats what it's about long term power

It's amazing how many times blaming the Murdoch media gets used on this site .

1. I read the guardian, abc, new scientist. I watch sky news on thursdays. Your links are lobby groups and herald sun. We're wasting our time.

2. If it looks and sounds like a duck, its a duck.

You watching Vic Met v WA tomoz? Well likely be able to agree on that

 

[eZyT]

must just hover above India.

Is it fair to say your position is;

Climate is changing , because of humans burning fossil fuel, but lowering Australian emissions wont help.

?

 

[Willo]

Is it fair to say your position is;

Climate is changing , because of humans burning fossil fuel, but lowering Australian emissions wont help.

?

Already answered several times

 

[eZyT]

Already answered several times

Fair enough. I dont even know why im here.

 

[mrposhman]

And with renewables needing replacing ,solar/wind/batteries etc every 10-20 years ,financially it makes more sense to go to nuclear power.
And nuclear power plants required a lot less land .well a huge amount less land.

On your 1st points, well it depends. If the life of the asset is 8 times as long but 9 times more expensive, does it still make it financially more beneficial?

On your 2nd point, this is an interesting one, and why I am a believer in making the grid system work using smaller grids, maybe not micro grids, but smaller. IMO the full grid system we operate is archaic and not in line with what we need moving forwards, and therefore with this why I prefer rooftop solar. We have more than enough roof space to provide enough energy from solar, there are no need for this mass solar farms that are popping up. We can also use things such as solar canopies (this would work really well with EV's on the rooftop car parks of shopping centres etc.

 

[mrposhman]

Maybe look at some links ,you might be proven wrong .
Nukes will come out much cheaper than the total costs of all the renewables,and will last longer,and thats what it's about long term power

It's amazing how many times blaming the Murdoch media gets used on this site .

Do you have links to back this up that are independently assessed against real life examples in the western world. Its all well and good using examples in the UAE, but as we know from the football world cup that was played there, saving money by bringing in the poorest people from other nations and them dying despite being paid peanuts is not frowned up in that part of the world as it might here.

 

[Willo]

On your 1st points, well it depends. If the life of the asset is 8 times as long but 9 times more expensive, does it still make it financially more beneficial?

On your 2nd point, this is an interesting one, and why I am a believer in making the grid system work using smaller grids, maybe not micro grids, but smaller. IMO the full grid system we operate is archaic and not in line with what we need moving forwards, and therefore with this why I prefer rooftop solar. We have more than enough roof space to provide enough energy from solar, there are no need for this mass solar farms that are popping up. We can also use things such as solar canopies (this would work really well with EV's on the rooftop car parks of shopping centres etc.

Some good points.
But then there is always the lifespan of solar panels and to a lesser extent inverters.
But the one bid issue of rooftop solar is still battery storage for domestic and industry use.
As you’re no doubt aware with rooftop solar there’s only a maximum of 4-5 hours peak generation
. (Similar to a bell curve)
That’s on a good day of full sunshine. A 10.5kw home battery wont run your RC air con of a hot afternoon evening and night. So there would need to be a bank or multiple of home batteries. Which not everyone could afford. Or replace your Rc air con.

Industry and heavy industry, some are 24hour operations. What size batteries would they require?
Then given the lifespan; of batteries and panels degrading. They’d need replacing every 15-20 years. Similar to home solar systems.
Then there’s the issue once again of lengthy periods of clouding, wintry grey skies, rain clouds etc. all those industries can’t afford to stand down their work because of a period of cloud affecting their power generation. Businesses won’t last long.
They will still need a secure, reliable, non weather affected system for power generation.
It’s the same old argument. It sounds good in theory and a; ideal world. But reality doesn’t allow it.

 

[DavidSSS]

Has this actually evolved into anything more than a slogan n handful of public servants sitting in an office somewhere yet?? There were some big announcements made some time ago n then it simply faded into obscurity.

Looks like the SEC was an election stunt, although, if they're smart they will announce a few things before the next state election.

Must say, those windmills really are an eyesore aren't they:

Wrecking the view yet again. Wonder if it is uranium they are mining there?

DS

 

[TigerMasochist]

im not anti Nuke as part of a low carbon energy grid.

but there's an enormous amount of bullcrap being spouted about renewables and nukes,

which are being injected into our culture wars, driven by powerful vested interested

bottom line for me is

1. we can't consume our way to a better planet; we need to use less, low carbon, energy.
2. fossil fuel lobby is rich and powerful and enmeshed amongst political power in Australia through our donation and lobby set up and wended to be more discerning about the information which informs our opinions and voting.

has anyone on here ever had the meat spoil in the freezer, or caught pneumonia,

due to lack of power?

my power still seems relatively cheap and reliable.

I dont really get it all.

but I do find the seemingly idealogical hatred of solar and wind it quite unfathomable.

I celebrate my solar hot water, which provides a piping hot shower for free every day, as a bit of a miracle.

Yet when they build ya a new house in Smelbourne with a fancy solar panel on the roof to heat you shower water, they also hook up a bunsen burner to make sure you've got lots of lovely hot water for ya shower.

ditto the windmill that pumps water uphill, low maintenance and for free.

Does the windmill just pump up low pressure trickle type flow to fill a tank or a trough whenever the wind blows, or does it give you some pressure for squirting stuff with even when there's no wind.

Hating a windmill is akin to hating Marcus Bontempelli to me

Prick plays for the Woofers so I'm at least permitted to dislike him a bit some of the time.

Doubt that anyone actually hates solar or wind power, it's simply that it's not a guaranteed system for meeting the continual demands of modern society and industry. So there's always going to be a need for some core base load power in support. What that is or will be is half the argument, the other half is just those nut job greenies going rabid over any alternative base load that isn't still a technological pipe dream.

 

[Willo]

Looks like the SEC was an election stunt, although, if they're smart they will announce a few things before the next state election.

Must say, those windmills really are an eyesore aren't they:

Wrecking the view yet again. Wonder if it is uranium they are mining there?

Uranium is underground mining.Lithium is open cut.

DS

Nah anyone can see thats a lithium mine for ev and solar batteries. The Greenies reckon it’s a thing of beauty.

 

[bengal tigers]

1. I read the guardian, abc, new scientist. I watch sky news on thursdays. Your links are lobby groups and herald sun. We're wasting our time.

2. If it looks and sounds like a duck, its a duck.

You watching Vic Met v WA tomoz? Well likely be able to agree on that

No they aren't all lobby groups ,but never mind you don't read them anyway ,like many other;s on here .
If it looks like a agenda it is a agenda.
Coal,Willo provided you with info about Labor signing a contract for a 50 year extension for a coal mine,,,yet crickets from you .
The arguments against Nuclear are paper thin .


Yes watching the football

 

[bengal tigers]

On your 1st points, well it depends. If the life of the asset is 8 times as long but 9 times more expensive, does it still make it financially more beneficial?

On your 2nd point, this is an interesting one, and why I am a believer in making the grid system work using smaller grids, maybe not micro grids, but smaller. IMO the full grid system we operate is archaic and not in line with what we need moving forwards, and therefore with this why I prefer rooftop solar. We have more than enough roof space to provide enough energy from solar, there are no need for this mass solar farms that are popping up. We can also use things such as solar canopies (this would work really well with EV's on the rooftop car parks of shopping centres etc.

Im not against solar and it has a place as part of the grid,but it's not going to provide 24/7 secure power .lm sure this has been discussed in depth before.

Do you have links to back this up that are independently assessed against real life examples in the western world. Its all well and good using examples in the UAE, but as we know from the football world cup that was played there, saving money by bringing in the poorest people from other nations and them dying despite being paid peanuts is not frowned up in that part of the world as it might here.

Nuclear will works out much cheaper than continued roll outs of renewables,and maintenance/replacing them,and don't forget the costs of households/business having to transition from gas to electricity ,,thats mainly in Victoria at the moment.

With battle lines drawn over who can deliver clean, cheap energy, one key question remains

The Coalition has put its cards on the table, unveiling its plan to build nuclear plants to secure Australia's energy future. But one thing was missing — what will it cost?

www.abc.net.au

 

[RoarEmotion]

I’m a pragmatist and this pretty much does a good job summing up nuclear. It’s only credible reason for being promoted is to delay alternate strategies / divert resources.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1804687869149422076

I’ve told you I’m in gas and I can promise you the uncertainty around what governments can do / how they will intervene is chilling on investment and has propagated coal for longer. Go look at NZ to see what is happening with coal imports.

Nuclear would make more sense (in Australia) with an existing industry/capability and some popular support as a green alternate to coal baseload. We are better off exporting nuclear fuel to countries that have no strong way to decarbonise aka Japan and doing renewable/gas in next 10 years leading to renewable/battery in long term.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Spot on, as someone who knows some CSIRO scientists including the current CSIRO CEO its insulting to suggest they do not provide independent advice.

Might be that there's a query regarding the quality of their advice? Didn't the CSIRO put out some mega fancy bees knees quality diet n health book a few years back which got panned by heaps of other Xspurts as not being half as good as was touted????

 

[TigerMasochist]

Is it fair to say your position is;

Climate is changing , because of humans burning fossil fuel, but lowering Australian emissions wont help.

?

Not if we're simply selling all our fossil fuels to the bloke round the corner so that he can have a nice bright toasty warm house n a job to go to while we all sit in the dark n twiddle our *smile* all day long.

 

[TigerMasochist]

Looks like the SEC was an election stunt, although, if they're smart they will announce a few things before the next state election.

Must say, those windmills really are an eyesore aren't they:

Wrecking the view yet again. Wonder if it is uranium they are mining there?

DS

Looks a bit like the cooks vegie patch when I'm getting it ready for spring planting.