Global Warming | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Global Warming

What everyone is missing is the fact that world's population continues to grow and each new human needs food, clothing, shelter and other goods and services. This is what propels growth. The only way to sustainably reduce our impact on the environment is to curtail population growth. And try preaching that to the Catholics and Muslims and the uneducated in poor countries who don't have access to birth control and/or the desire.knowledge to carry it out.
Until population is controlled, we will continue to have/need economic growth.
 
tigersnake said:
The 'pure' Marxist model of socialism has never been implemented, not even close. Its always been hijacked by an evil nutcase. I'm not saying that is what I'd like to see, (personally I think the answer lies in a green capitalist model, and Karl Marx loved rampant indutrial economic growth and profits) just making the point that the opposite argument can also be made. The right always say 'communism/ socialism has been tried and has failed', it ain't necessarily so, its far more complex than that.
I vehemently disagree with this statement and then to suggest it wasn't even close just boggles the mind. Even if evil nutcases didn't hijack it as you claim, the system would still fail. Socialism is literally impossible. It is a system in which rational economic calculation becomes impossible, because there are no longer prices for capital goods once private property in the means of production is abolished. A system bereft of economic calculation can no longer allocate scarce resources efficiently. It cannot really be called an economy anymore. It a system that is doomed to break down in short order, and the only reason why it survived as long as it did in the former Eastern Bloc was that the COMECON planners were able to observe the price system in the capitalist countries and so could engage in a rudimentary form of economic calculation. Had the whole world become socialistic, the economy and division of labor would have completely collapsed within a few years and people would have been forced to return to a hand-to-mouth existence, barely able to subsist. Life would once again have become 'nasty, brutish and short'.

Also the reason why evil nutcases tend to come to the fore in communist regimes is due to the nature of communism. Since the expropriation of private property necessarily involves force, it cannot be implemented without killing and imprisoning people. Once the system is established, it must continue to use force to ensure that the new ruling class won't be challenged and that the system remains in place. This is the system you defend.
 
bullus_hit said:
I'm referring to capitalism in it's present form, you obviously have your own notions of the 'perfect model', and to be perfectly frank, I can't stand the false dichotomy of socialism versus capitalism. China being a perfect case in point. My arguments stem from clear market failures, externalities such pollution being a case in point.
You are referring to the system in its current form, not to capitalism. I have no notions of "the perfect model" since none exist. All I have is an opinion on what system works best.

Our current system is better referred to as Crony Capitalism or Socialism Lite, it is a combination between the two. China is another example of the hybrid system although it has a far more socialist slant. If you really think there is little difference between capitalism than socialism, then how do you explain the need for the Berlin wall? How do you explain the massive difference in material well being of people living in communist countries compared to freer countries? History clearly demonstrates the failure of socialism, yet ignorance of economics still allows these ideas to persist.

You recognise the theory of the tragedy of the commons. I support this theory and you might be surprised to know that it is a fundamental aspect of free market capitalism, which advocates private property. Socialism does not. False dichotomy? The accumulation of capital and improving living standards would far better held in balance with environmental protection if we protected private property rights. The Soviet Union had extensive environmental regulation, and it did nothing to prevent the massive environmental damage there.

bullus_hit said:
Care to elaborate?
In my opinion, economic growth is best described as the accumulation of capital. Capital are the goods that were produced by previous stages of production but do not directly satisfy consumer's needs; they are used in production to eventually produce consumer goods.

Consider a world without interfering central planners. In such a world, savings are simply that part of production that has not been consumed. Since investment is constrained by the amount of available savings, it follows that less consumption is the prerequisite for more investment. Every year, a certain amount of capital needs to be replaced. The amount of savings in excess of this replacement need is what is available for additional, net new capital investment. Keep in mind that I'm talking about real resources and capital, not 'money'.

Capital is however not an aggregate. It has a structure – what is often called the 'structure of production'. This structure has a complex ordering; before a consumer good hits the shelves, it goes through number of processes - the stages of production.

Consider a relatively simple good like a toaster. It has metal and plastics parts, put together in such a way as to make the toasting of bread possible. In the early stages of production, the metal needs to be mined and smelted; the oil needs to be pumped and transformed into plastic. In the next stages the metal and plastic must be shaped into the various parts that will make up the toaster. In a still later stage, the parts need to be assembled. In the final stage, wholesalers and retailers hold an inventory of toasters and organise their distribution to consumers (this is a very simplified version of the whole process). During the various stages of production involved in making this toaster, some take place earlier in time than others, and that the earlier stages in which the higher order raw and intermediate goods are produced are likely to involve very long range planning and large capital investment.

So how do entrepreneurs know how much and in which stages of the production process to invest? This depends on the amount of funds available for investment – i.e. the amount of available savings. The market signal that indicates whether a relatively large or small amount of savings is available is the prevailing interest rate. We are all producers, consumers and savers in personal union; our propensity to collectively either consume more in the present, or consume less in the present in order to save for future consumption, is called 'time preference'.

If our time preference is low, we will tend to save more of our production, which will increase the amount of savings available for investment – the interest rate in this case will fall. This allows the long range planning of consumers (saving for future consumption) to mesh with a corresponding long range planning of producers – as the larger amount of available savings as indicated by low interest rates makes very complex long range investment projects possible. Investment will then increasingly gravitate toward the earlier stages of the production structure, and these stages will then be able to outbid the later stages for labour and resources.

In addition, the production structure will tend to lengthen – a more complex and roundabout production process will evolve, adding new stages of production to the structure, improving overall productivity via increased specialisation.

At the end of this process, over time, more consumption will be possible than would otherwise have been the case, i.e. if fewer savings had been available earlier. In short, by people deciding to consume less in the present and save more for future consumption, more investment is made possible, which in turn will enable more production and consequently make possible more consumption in the future.

This is what 'sustainable' growth actually is. There is no need to interfere with this process – it will spontaneously order itself in an optimal manner if left alone – by what Adam Smith called the 'invisible hand'. The sum of all individual decisions in the market economy – individual decisions that are all aiming for one's material betterment – will spontaneously create the order that makes such betterment actually possible.

By means of rising and falling interest rates, the market informs investors and entrepreneurs about the size of the subsistence fund available to finance capital investment projects, the preference for consumption relative to saving, and will thus guide the decision-making process regarding in which stages of the production structure to predominantly invest.

This also highlights how wrong people are when they say that a collective propensity to save more and consume less is a negative development for the economy. It fails to consider that only by saving can one invest – and that a propensity to save more will only affect investment in the later stages of production.

Any interference in this process is socialist in nature, and is why we have massive distortion in market signals which results in a massive misalloction of capital which has to be wiped clean in the bust.

Consider the populist policy of artificially holding interest rates as low as possible that is employed by a central bank. Low central bank interest rates are designed to artificially inflate credit and thereby stimulate consumption.

This has two simultaneous effects that conspire to create an artificial boom that must perforce give way to a bust at a later stage. For one thing, it creates an incentive to consume rather than save – i.e. it raises time preferences. This raising of time preferences is not only due to the rising availability of credit and the lowering of returns on savings, but also due to the devaluation of money that the central bank's policies engender over time.

Normally, rising time preferences would tend to drive up the rate of interest, as fewer savings, and thus fewer funds for lending, are available. However, the rate of interest has been artificially fixed by the central bank, which then supplies as much money to the marketplace as is demanded at its prevailing administered rate. Contrary to real savings, this is however 'money out of thin air' – no production preceded its introduction to the marketplace.

At the same time, it won't fail to transmit the information to investors and entrepreneurs that there are plenty of savings available to invest. In other words, the artificially low interest rate misleads investors into assuming that the pool of available savings (the pool of real funding) is much larger than it actually is. Large long lead investment projects in the earlier stages of production will be undertaken, just as consumers are actually saving less and consuming more due to the same artificial incentive.

For a time, the central bank can 'paper over' the fact that real resources are consumed instead of saved, but this process of 'papering over' actually accelerates the decline in the pool of real funding via overconsumption, while capital is concurrently misdirected and malinvested. This process of malinvestment results in too much capital flows toward the production of early stage higher order goods production.

This combination of overconsumption and malinvestment takes place until the point in time when the actual state of the pool of real funding is suddenly revealed. Malinvestment implies that numerous investment projects were started that could not possibly be finished, respectively also that numerous economic activities were underway that would not be viable at all absent a credit boom.

Sometimes the artificial boom ends because the central bank belatedly decides to abort its artificial low interest rate due to the secondary lagged effect – rising prices – becoming 'visible in the data'. As an artificial boom-bust sequence progresses, it takes more and more credit inflation to engender the 'desired' economic effect of 'creating growth', which is really synonymous to creating economic activities that squander wealth. At the same time, it takes an ever smaller rise in the administered interest rate to actually starve the boom of the exponential credit creation it needs to survive.

The duration and amplitude of the boom-bust sequence meanwhile increases over time, as more and more of the pool of real funding is consumed. How can there be a 'boom' at all, when it consists mostly of overconsumption and malinvestment? Simply put, the artificial boom that credit and money out of thin air create draws upon the previously accumulated capital and consumes it, or part of it.

Note that there comes a point in time when no amount of additional credit out of thin air can restore the boom – this final stage is reached once the credit expansions of the past have consumed so much of the subsistence fund of real savings that it has stopped growing, respectively has actually begun to decline. The current 'credit crunch' episode is a strong sign that we may have reached that point.

Now this is just one example of the effect of interventionalism on the economy, I think this will suffice for now.
 
evo said:
Economics is a field of study like psychology, architecture or sociology; with many disparate views. It hasn't decided anything.
Where economics differs from these other fields is that even though it is supposed to be value-free as a science in principle, economics necessarily has a political dimension, since politics is all about the acquisition and distribution of property by political means. Economic policy is the main topic around which politics revolves. There is little harm in leaving psychology to psychologists.

Regarding the place economics should have in our lives, Ludwig von Mises once wrote:

“Economics must not be relegated to classrooms and statistical offices and must not be left to esoteric circles. It is the philosophy of human life and action and concerns everybody and everything. It is the pith of civilization and of man's human existence.”

I think even mainstream economists would admit to the existance of economic laws, it is just that recognising them publically would be a sure fire away to being fired. Positivism has completely taken over economics.
 
evo said:
Economics is a field of study like psychology, architecture or sociology; with many disparate views. It hasn't decided anything.

There may well be economists who actively discourage the growth at all costs mantra but I can't think of too many governments that hold this view. What makes the situation worse is that those in the hot seat are looking at net immigration to keep the growth wheel turning, Australia being one such country. This to me is another piece of evidence which points to the mother of all Ponzi schemes being played out, at some point the whole system will collapse.

poppa x said:
What everyone is missing is the fact that world's population continues to grow and each new human needs food, clothing, shelter and other goods and services. This is what propels growth. The only way to sustainably reduce our impact on the environment is to curtail population growth. And try preaching that to the Catholics and Muslims and the uneducated in poor countries who don't have access to birth control and/or the desire.knowledge to carry it out.
Until population is controlled, we will continue to have/need economic growth.

Spot on Poppa, the two go hand in hand, it's classic head in the sand policy making. Very few nations have even tinkered with the idea that we may have already reached the earths carrying capacity. If the situation seems critical now, imagine another 3 billion people all vying for the limited food and energy resources that we have at our disposal. What compounds this problem is that energy has replaced food at the top of the economic wishlist, farmers are now finding themselves competing with coal seam gas and open cut mines.

Giardiasis said:
You are referring to the system in its current form, not to capitalism. I have no notions of "the perfect model" since none exist. All I have is an opinion on what system works best.

Our current system is better referred to as Crony Capitalism or Socialism Lite, it is a combination between the two. China is another example of the hybrid system although it has a far more socialist slant. If you really think there is little difference between capitalism than socialism, then how do you explain the need for the Berlin wall? How do you explain the massive difference in material well being of people living in communist countries compared to freer countries? History clearly demonstrates the failure of socialism, yet ignorance of economics still allows these ideas to persist.

Every system in the world is a combination of socialism and capitalism, the two are not and have never been mutually exclusive. But if we are slicing and dicing the power structures at present, industry and corporations pretty much run the show at a parliamentary level, lobby groups have infiltrated the policy making domain to such an extent, that even the most logical reforms have been knocked on the head. Take firearm background checks for example, or the issue of universal healthcare, both being common sense approaches but ones which have been hijacked by the propaganda machines.

Corporations are simply not capable of good governance because they tend to focus on the short term and are beholden to the balance sheet. They are inherently self interested and in the case of established industries such as coal and gas, seem to treat the environment like a rag doll.
 
People have been throwing around the term "economic growth" in this thread without, I think, a proper understanding of its meaning. Using imprecise definitions can make people see non-existent problems, or in this case, attribute problems to the wrong causes (i.e. free market capitalism).

Economic growth is not an increase in “production,” but an increase in “production capacity.” People have attributed increasing GDP as the measure for economic growth, however what GDP actually measures is consumption (albeit wrongly). While an increase in production is often a function of increased GDP, the increase in GDP we have observed is a result of the consumption of capital, without a corresponding increase in capital accumulation. As you can see, this can only happen so long as there is capital left to consume, eventually a point will be reached where no further production is possible. This is the main roadblock to the sustainability of the current system, a domino effect of population growth and raw materials consumption is a myth. You can only produce, if you save.

Why are we seeing a misbalance between capital accumulation and consumption? The answer is interventionalism, in the form of taxation, government spending, and monetary policy of the central banks (currently the single most important feature of the economy). These policies are counter to the principles of free market capitalism, and therefore it is wrong to attribute the current malaise in the economy to capitalism. The real culprit is government intervention.
 
Giardiasis said:
People have been throwing around the term "economic growth" in this thread without, I think, a proper understanding of its meaning. Using imprecise definitions can make people see non-existent problems, or in this case, attribute problems to the wrong causes (i.e. free market capitalism).

Economic growth is not an increase in “production,” but an increase in “production capacity.” People have attributed increasing GDP as the measure for economic growth, however what GDP actually measures is consumption (albeit wrongly). While an increase in production is often a function of increased GDP, the increase in GDP we have observed is a result of the consumption of capital, without a corresponding increase in capital accumulation. As you can see, this can only happen so long as there is capital left to consume, eventually a point will be reached where no further production is possible. This is the main roadblock to the sustainability of the current system, a domino effect of population growth and raw materials consumption is a myth. You can only produce, if you save.

Why are we seeing a misbalance between capital accumulation and consumption? The answer is interventionalism, in the form of taxation, government spending, and monetary policy of the central banks (currently the single most important feature of the economy). These policies are counter to the principles of free market capitalism, and therefore it is wrong to attribute the current malaise in the economy to capitalism. The real culprit is government intervention.

I think you're confusing economic growth with economic development. Living standards can improve without having to produce more, provided the population remains stagnant. But to dismiss the contribution of a swelling population makes little sense, we're all consumers and we all leave an indelible mark on the environment.

As for your alleged bogeyman - government intervention, that to me is scapegoating. Both government and private enterprise have been guilty of waste and mismanagement. Furthermore, a world without some form of central planning would be haphazard in the extreme, we can argue about the degrees of intervention but to suggest free markets can operate without a regulatory framework would be akin to anarchy. You simply cannot have a culture of individualism without someone overseeing the bigger picture.
 
bullus_hit said:
I think you're confusing economic growth with economic development. Living standards can improve without having to produce more, provided the population remains stagnant. But to dismiss the contribution of a swelling population makes little sense, we're all consumers and we all leave an indelible mark on the environment.
"Economic development generally refers to the sustained, concerted actions of policy makers and communities that promote the standard of living and economic health of a specific area". I don't see how that is the same thing as "productive capacity", i.e. savings. So I don't agree I'm confusing anything. If the government went and hired people to dig a hole, and then fill it up again, this would be considered economic growth if GDP was how it was measured.

bullus_hit said:
As for your alleged bogeyman - government intervention, that to me is scapegoating. Both government and private enterprise have been guilty of waste and mismanagement. Furthermore, a world without some form of central planning would be haphazard in the extreme, we can argue about the degrees of intervention but to suggest free markets can operate without a regulatory framework would be akin to anarchy. You simply cannot have a culture of individualism without someone overseeing the bigger picture.
Yes both government and private enterprise are guilty of waste and mismanagement, the difference being that the government can influence the entire economy, individual companies can not. The government has a monopoly on coercion, and money printing; private enterprise isn't in the same league as governments when it comes to economic mismanagement.

Well obviously I disagree that we need a bunch of central planners to meddle in other people's affairs, they simply can not overcome the problems of knowledge, interest and power.
 
Giardiasis said:
"Economic development generally refers to the sustained, concerted actions of policy makers and communities that promote the standard of living and economic health of a specific area". I don't see how that is the same thing as "productive capacity", i.e. savings. So I don't agree I'm confusing anything. If the government went and hired people to dig a hole, and then fill it up again, this would be considered economic growth if GDP was how it was measured.
Yes both government and private enterprise are guilty of waste and mismanagement, the difference being that the government can influence the entire economy, individual companies can not. The government has a monopoly on coercion, and money printing; private enterprise isn't in the same league as governments when it comes to economic mismanagement.

Economic growth does not equal "productive capacity", if it does then who or what uses this measure?

As for your assertion that private enterprise cannot influence the politicians - naive in the extreme. Your dismissal of lobby groups is taking a very blinkered approach to modern day politics. America spends over 1 trillion dollars greasing up politicians, big companies often prop up their own candidates, in fact most have earnt their stripes by working for the big multi-nationals. The rest is history, do you honestly think *smile* Cheney kept an open mind when handed Haliburton massive contracts without tender? Do you honestly think George Bush didn't have the oil industry front and centre throughout his tenure as president? Then there's our own Tony Abbott, a man who's been seduced by the fossil fuel industry, and a man who is desperate to undermine the renewables at every turn.

As for deregulation, would you be happy if Australia opened the doors to gun manufacturers? Would you choose America's deregulated healthcare over universal healthcare? Would you allow the financial sector to run amok for a second time around? Would you allow miners to plunder the environment at the expense of farmers?

Time to get topical Gia, your insistence on ignoring reality and clinging onto pure theory is becoming tiresome. Power hierarchies are inevitable, whether they are dressed up as governments or heavy hitting corporations is just hair splitting. Citing things like Adam Smith's invisible hand is just a big cop out.
 
Interesting Article:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/01/14/climate_change_another_study_shows_they_don_t_publish_actual_papers.html
 
http://www.crikey.com.au/2014/01/15/tony-abbotts-half-baked-war-on-renewable-energy/

Here's another good article on the Coalitions tunnel vision with regards to energy.
 
bullus_hit said:
Economic growth does not equal "productive capacity", if it does then who or what uses this measure?
Austrian economists: http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Economic_growth

bullus_hit said:
As for your assertion that private enterprise cannot influence the politicians - naive in the extreme. Your dismissal of lobby groups is taking a very blinkered approach to modern day politics. America spends over 1 trillion dollars greasing up politicians, big companies often prop up their own candidates, in fact most have earnt their stripes by working for the big multi-nationals. The rest is history, do you honestly think *smile* Cheney kept an open mind when handed Haliburton massive contracts without tender? Do you honestly think George Bush didn't have the oil industry front and centre throughout his tenure as president? Then there's our own Tony Abbott, a man who's been seduced by the fossil fuel industry, and a man who is desperate to undermine the renewables at every turn.
Nowhere did I assert that private enterprise cannot influence politicians, this is yet another strawman argument, although this one is quite ironic. You don’t seem to realise that you are making arguments that support my proposition that government intervention is the source of our woes. If the government wasn’t there ready to send subsidies, tariffs and other anti-competition advantages to business, then how would these big multi-nationals ever gain them? It is the government’s monopoly of coercion that encourages rent seeking activities by business to stamp out competition.

bullus_hit said:
As for deregulation, would you be happy if Australia opened the doors to gun manufacturers? Would you choose America's deregulated healthcare over universal healthcare? Would you allow the financial sector to run amok for a second time around? Would you allow miners to plunder the environment at the expense of farmers?
I wouldn’t be happy or unhappy if gun manufacturing took off in Australia. I wouldn’t consider America’s healthcare system as deregulated, especially with Obamacare coming into affect. Obviously I would want the government to get out of healthcare entirely (I’m surprised you wouldn’t realise that?). Again, I’m surprised you don’t realise that I support strong private property rights, so I think the current situation with mining to be a travesty for farmers. I think the government rights to the resources should be transferred to property owners, who should then have the right to deny mining companies access to their properties if they so desire.

bullus_hit said:
Time to get topical Gia, your insistence on ignoring reality and clinging onto pure theory is becoming tiresome. Power hierarchies are inevitable, whether they are dressed up as governments or heavy hitting corporations is just hair splitting. Citing things like Adam Smith's invisible hand is just a big cop out.
Perhaps if you read my postings properly, or refrained from using strawman arguments, you might better understand my points. Then again, I highly doubt it.
 
Giardiasis said:
Nowhere did I assert that private enterprise cannot influence politicians, this is yet another strawman argument, although this one is quite ironic. You don’t seem to realise that you are making arguments that support my proposition that government intervention is the source of our woes.

So if *smile* Cheney was making the decisions from the offices of Haliburton everything would be hunky dorey eh? Again, you fail to see that the lines between government & big business have been severly compromised. If anything, the power has switched inexorably to the corporate sector, most in the American Congress are multi-national head kickers who are being bankrolled by the uber wealthy. What we see now is a snapshot of the exact model that you are advocating, usually with the richest determining policy outcomes. Is it a healthy state of affairs? No way Jose, what we need is a more bi-partisan approach without the vested interests.

Giardiasis said:
If the government wasn’t there ready to send subsidies, tariffs and other anti-competition advantages to business, then how would these big multi-nationals ever gain them? It is the government’s monopoly of coercion that encourages rent seeking activities by business to stamp out competition.

Too many generalisations here, there have been many instances where government intervention has allowed business to ride the peaks and troughs. You don't go and abandon critical industries if your domestic market relies upon them. If a farmer suffers through a period of drought and is teetering on the edge, are you suggesting it is better to just cut them loose?

As for your contention that governments cause monopolies, I can only scratch my head in bewilderment. Companies by their very nature facilitate growth through acquisition, this would still occur even if governments were wiped off the map. The end result is inevitably a landscape dominated by monopolies & oligopolies. It's the very reason we have anti-competitive legislation, and it's actually good policy for those who want to keep the spirit of competition alive.

Giardiasis said:
I wouldn’t be happy or unhappy if gun manufacturing took off in Australia.

Your showing your fundamentalist colours right here.

Giardiasis said:
I wouldn’t consider America’s healthcare system as deregulated, especially with Obamacare coming into affect. Obviously I would want the government to get out of healthcare entirely (I’m surprised you wouldn’t realise that?).

Comparatively it's the most deregulated in the Western world, it's also the most expensive by quite some margin. Obamacare is a step in the right direction but one might argue that the horse has already bolted. Again, the presence of lobby groups will continue their campaign of smear & sabotage. As for second guessing your stance on healthcare, what are you actually advocating?

Giardiasis said:
Again, I’m surprised you don’t realise that I support strong private property rights, so I think the current situation with mining to be a travesty for farmers. I think the government rights to the resources should be transferred to property owners, who should then have the right to deny mining companies access to their properties if they so desire.

Whilst I agree with this in principle, private ownership cannot be applied as a blanket policy. Usually land and resources needs to be shared amongst various competing interests. The Murray-Darling Basin is a perfect case in point. There's also the issue of pollution and other externalities being accounted for. This is where legislation is critical, you can't have one business flushing their dirty water down stream to the detriment of everyone else.

Giardiasis said:
Austrian economists: http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Economic_growth

This still doesn't explain how 'productive capacity' can be measured. On one hand it states "Money prices do not measure anything. Prices only have a meaning as relative prices as they reflect the exchange ratios on the market", yet on the other hand it states "the only viable way to growth is through increased saving and investment".

To me this is contradictory, 'saving' implies some sort of valuation, so what exactly is being valued?
 
Tigers of Old said:
If this weather is a shape of things to come it's a horrible thought.

As a letter published in the HS states, Melbourne had eight consecutive days of 40-44 degrees in 1908, and they didn't have air conditioners then. It's an extreme weather event, sure, but it's not like it's anything new.
 
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
As a letter published in the HS states, Melbourne had eight consecutive days of 40-44 degrees in 1908, and they didn't have air conditioners then. It's an extreme weather event, sure, but it's not like it's anything new.

No in isolation it's not a unique event that's true but coupled with the fact that we just came off our hottest year on record one might have some reason to be concerned..

1457559_10151773127726455_1412691126_n.jpg
 
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
As a letter published in the HS states, Melbourne had eight consecutive days of 40-44 degrees in 1908, and they didn't have air conditioners then. It's an extreme weather event, sure, but it's not like it's anything new.

Get used it, these conditions will become more frequent, longer and more extreme. As as been mentioned before, it's not just heatwaves that will be of concern, all climatic conditions will become more severe. This is the by-product of increased energy being trapped in the atmosphere, as we all know, energy cannot be created or destroyed, just transferred into another form. So brace yourself for all eventualities, including an increase in wind velocity and heavier rainfall.
 
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
As a letter published in the HS states, Melbourne had eight consecutive days of 40-44 degrees in 1908, and they didn't have air conditioners then. It's an extreme weather event, sure, but it's not like it's anything new.

I agree. Climate change is real. As I've said a million times, you can't pick and choose from science, just take the stuff you like, like medical breakthroughs, and ridicule the stuff you don't, its dumb, brainless.

BUT, this is all about long term trends. I really hate how the deniers go 'see those dumb greenies have it all wrong' when it snows, and equally when people campaigning for a clean energy economy go 'see its armageddon' everytime there's a hot day. Its counterproductive.
 
tigersnake said:
I agree. Climate change is real. As I've said a million times, you can't pick and choose from science, just take the stuff you like, like medical breakthroughs, and ridicule the stuff you don't, its dumb, brainless.

BUT, this is all about long term trends. I really hate how the deniers go 'see those dumb greenies have it all wrong' when it snows, and equally when people campaigning for a clean energy economy go 'see its armageddon' everytime there's a hot day. Its counterproductive.
Well said.
 
tigersnake said:
I agree. Climate change is real. As I've said a million times, you can't pick and choose from science, just take the stuff you like, like medical breakthroughs, and ridicule the stuff you don't, its dumb, brainless.

BUT, this is all about long term trends. I really hate how the deniers go 'see those dumb greenies have it all wrong' when it snows, and equally when people campaigning for a clean energy economy go 'see its armageddon' everytime there's a hot day. Its counterproductive.

Yes, this is true, I was appalled by the coverage of the two ships being stuck in Antarctica, particularly by the Murdoch press. Somehow this meant that climate change was just a big con and the inference was that the climate was getting colder. There was no mention of the difference between sea ice & land ice, and the fact that a warming climate is causing huge icebergs to break off and subsequently change the landscape. And perhaps more importantly, no mention of the difference between climate and weather. This last point is the real kicker, it's often the reason why the whole debate is dumbed down to kindegarten levels.

Over the past two weeks there's also been to two poorly researched and highly political anti-climate change pieces in The Age. One of the authors was actually credited with being an IPCC scientist when in fact he was a mouthpiece for the Heartland Insitute. This concerns me greatly because it could indicate that Gina Rinehart is slowly using her executive power to influence editorial decsions. If it's a continuing trend I will cease from reading any Fairfax material.

As for coal being the way forward, Beijing is now choking on air 500 times above the acceptable limit. All this in the name of progress? What makes it worse is that the politicians have stated things won't improve until 2017, so in the meantime the general population will suffer and thousands if not millions will die as a result of respiratory illness. Way to go China!