Burqa Poll

[MightyTiger]

Actually in the link provided ....
2-Sura 59 (al-Ahzab) verses 58-59
At the bottom of the paragraph it states.."Whatever one's views on women literally veiling the face and/or head, there is no instruction to do so in the Holy Qur'an"

Which I have said all along is it's a personal thing, a Female is not forced to wear it.

I asked a question. I didn't give my opinion on it.

Could you please answer the second question from my post.

Funny, you dodged my question about the Priests and the Nuns, yet I've probably answered yours about 10 times already, Religion is complex and will always have contradictory views to that of modern society.

 

[Rosy]

Actually in the link provided ....
2-Sura 59 (al-Ahzab) verses 58-59
At the bottom of the paragraph it states.."Whatever one's views on women literally veiling the face and/or head, there is no instruction to do so in the Holy Qur'an"

Maybe it was a trick question. :rofl

 

[Willo]

Link http://mto.org/islam/en/women_clothing.html

"Along with scriptual arguements, scholars argue that a head covering should not be compulsory with Islam because the veil predates the revelation of the Qur'an..."

Interesting read. It seems that at one time women were equals " at home., in the mosque and on the battlefield" ...."Today True Islam is being destroyed in the name of Islam"
Sheikh Muhammed al-Ghazali.

So it is not a religious decree/tradition. It is a cultural/tribal garment.
Those that espouse that is a requirement of their religion or are practicing religious freedom are misinformed then.

But a woman may choose to dress as is her right, but must follow any directives or laws to uncover her face when requested. Is that it?

 

[MightyTiger]

Link http://mto.org/islam/en/women_clothing.html

"Along with scriptual arguements, scholars argue that a head covering should not be compulsory with Islam because the veil predates the revelation of the Qur'an..."

Interesting read. It seems that at one time women were equals " at home., in the mosque and on the battlefield" ...."Today True Islam is being destroyed in the name of Islam"
Sheikh Muhammed al-Ghazali.

So it is not a religious decree/tradition. It is a cultural/tribal garment.
Those that espouse that is a requirement of their religion or are practicing religious freedom are misinformed then.

But a woman may choose to dress as is her right, but must follow any directives or laws to uncover her face when requested. Is that it?

Sound about right.

For instance, in Turkey you wont find many Females wearing the Burqa, they mainly wear the Scarf which just covers the hair.

But many other places like Lebanon, Saudi etc wear mainly the Burqa.

 

[Rosy]

Funny, you dodged my question about the Priests and the Nuns, yet I've probably answered yours about 10 times already, Religion is complex and will always have contradictory views to that of modern society.

As far as I know Nuns don't cover their faces so am not sure of the relevance on this thread. Red herrings as I said. I'm certainly not interested in discussing the sex life of Nun's and Priests but each to their own.

No worries about not answering my question. It was probably rhetorical anyway.

 

[MightyTiger]

As far as I know Nuns don't cover their faces so am not sure of the relevance on this thread. Red herrings as I said. I'm certainly not interested in discussing the sex life of Nun's and Priests but each to their own.

No worries about not answering my question. It was probably rhetorical anyway.

I did answer it, you for some reason keep over looking it.

Keep dodging the question, makes the thread a lot more fun.

Which I have said all along is it's a personal thing, a Female is not forced to wear it.

Funny, you dodged my question about the Priests and the Nuns, yet I've probably answered yours about 10 times already, Religion is complex and will always have contradictory views to that of modern society.

 

[glantone]

Mighty, I don’t have a problem with versions of the burqa that allow a woman’s face to shine through. I see it as nothing more than harmless eccentric behaviour expressing an allegiance to a particular concept, not unlike Hari Khrishnas who dress in a particular way, or in a strange kind of way not unlike a rocker in 2011 walking around in 50’s gear.


Syed's quote you posted:

‘Syed maintains that when a woman is covered, men cannot judge her by her appearance but are forced to evaluate her by her personality, character, and morals. "I tell them that the hijab is not a responsibility, it's a right given to me by my Creator who knows us best. It's a benefit to me, so why not? It's something every woman should strive to get and should want."

The young woman admits to being surprised that many people wonder if she wears the hijab everywhere (at home, when sleeping, in the shower). The truth is that Muslim women only cover themselves in front of men who are not direct relatives (brothers, fathers, and uncles) to prevent indecent acts or thoughts.’


From my pov, I think it’s fair to assume that if the men around Syed respected her as an equal surely she would not feel the need to cover up or under threat of an imminent indecent act, unless that is, the very same men who clearly view her a sex object also view eachother as sex objects. Gatherings outside the family must be just oozing sexual tension.


Another quote:

‘Some people may think that the more a woman covers, the less freedom she has. But, according to Muslim tradition, it is actually the opposite. The less she wears, the more she is degraded and the more she is put in the line of fire of male criticism.’

According to Muslim tradition? ……… were Muslim women the architect of Muslim traditions which identify under which circumstances women should feel degraded?
Why do men feel obliged to degrade women anyway, and who bestowed men with such authority?

In a later post you say that ‘in the Quran, the Hijab or Burqa is ultimately the Women's choice, they aren't forced to wear and wont be judged any differently to a Female who doesn't wear one’ – yet according to Syed this doesn’t appear to be the situation at all in muslim society. All a bit confusing I’m afraid.

Go Tiges!

 

[MightyTiger]

Mighty, I don’t have a problem with versions of the burqa that allow a woman’s face to shine through. I see it as nothing more than harmless eccentric behaviour expressing an allegiance to a particular concept, not unlike Hari Khrishnas who dress in a particular way, or in a strange kind of way not unlike a rocker in 2011 walking around in 50’s gear.

Syed's quote you posted:

‘Syed maintains that when a woman is covered, men cannot judge her by her appearance but are forced to evaluate her by her personality, character, and morals. "I tell them that the hijab is not a responsibility, it's a right given to me by my Creator who knows us best. It's a benefit to me, so why not? It's something every woman should strive to get and should want."

The young woman admits to being surprised that many people wonder if she wears the hijab everywhere (at home, when sleeping, in the shower). The truth is that Muslim women only cover themselves in front of men who are not direct relatives (brothers, fathers, and uncles) to prevent indecent acts or thoughts.’

From my pov, I think it’s fair to assume that if the men around Syed respected her as an equal surely she would not feel the need to cover up or under threat of an imminent indecent act, unless that is, the very same men who clearly view her a sex object also view eachother as sex objects. Gatherings outside the family must be just oozing sexual tension.

So are you telling me when you go out and see a hot looking girl you don't have any sexual thoughts? And please don't say no as it would simply be a lie, every man has it programmed inside there heads to have sexual thoughts when they see another Female they are attracted to. Heck I even do it myself and I'm a Muslim man, does it make me a bad person? No it makes me Human.

Another quote:

‘Some people may think that the more a woman covers, the less freedom she has. But, according to Muslim tradition, it is actually the opposite. The less she wears, the more she is degraded and the more she is put in the line of fire of male criticism.’

According to Muslim tradition? ……… were Muslim women the architect of Muslim traditions which identify under which circumstances women should feel degraded?
Why do men feel obliged to degrade women anyway, and who bestowed men with such authority?

I'm not to sure what point you are trying to make with this, and as to the bolded part, don't be so naive, you know very well that this is a Male dominant world, whether it's right or wrong is a different story but in all walks of life the Female will always be judged differently to the Male.

It's a bit like when you hear a story of your mate banging a bunch of chicks, and to all your mates he's a hero, a champion and will be the envy of all your friends, but then same scenario but it's a Female and all the guys find out about how many Men she had slept with or what have you, and now all of a sudden she is a dirty *smile*, no good skank and no one wants to talk to her any more or have anything to do with her and they start spreading dirty rumours about her.

These blatant double standards will always be apart of life, it's obvious even when you take religion out of the equation that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

In a later post you say that ‘in the Quran, the Hijab or Burqa is ultimately the Women's choice, they aren't forced to wear and wont be judged any differently to a Female who doesn't wear one’ – yet according to Syed this doesn’t appear to be the situation at all in muslim society. All a bit confusing I’m afraid.

Go Tiges!

Where in her little write up does she say she is forced to wear a Hijab or a Burqa?

:gotigers

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Syed's quote you posted:

So are you telling me when you go out and see a hot looking girl you don't have any sexual thoughts? And please don't say no as it would simply be a lie, every man has it programmed inside there heads to have sexual thoughts when they see another Female they are attracted to. Heck I even do it myself and I'm a Muslim man, does it make me a bad person? No it makes me Human.

Another quote:

I'm not to sure what point you are trying to make with this, and as to the bolded part, don't be so naive, you know very well that this is a Male dominant world, whether it's right or wrong is a different story but in all walks of life the Female will always be judged differently to the Male.

It's a bit like when you hear a story of your mate banging a bunch of chicks, and to all your mates he's a hero, a champion and will be the envy of all your friends, but then same scenario but it's a Female and all the guys find out about how many Men she had slept with or what have you, and now all of a sudden she is a dirty , no good skank and no one wants to talk to her any more or have anything to do with her and they start spreading dirty rumours about her.

These blatant double standards will always be apart of life, it's obvious even when you take religion out of the equation that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

Where in her little write up does she say she is forced to wear a Hijab or a Burqa?

:gotigers

Holy crap! So now it's all about mind control? Just kidding. As humans we have an in-built "us and them" response to people who look different to "us". I know I do, and I often hate myself for it. I think modern society is less and less religious in general though, and I see religion as an entirely personal pursuit. No individual has the right to over-ride the law of the land, whatever land that is. If this is an afront to your religion oughtn't really be a consideration of the state. That is where I think NSW have done a poor job the "Ban the burqa" thing. The law shouldn't need a special section to cover this, the law is the law. There shouldn't be any need to re-write the statute books, just a clarification. I see this in the same category as the special priviledge given to clergy that allows them to avoid the mandatory reporting of suspected abuse. Religion is a personal pursuit and the law shouldln't see it any differently.

 

[Rosy]

Holy crap!

Indeed.

The sad thing is I think MT is serious. Very disturbing posting on many levels.

 

[MightyTiger]

Indeed.

The sad thing is I think MT is serious. Very disturbing posting on many levels.

Maybe you missed this part.

And at least I have an opinion and have shared my thoughts with others knowing people would most likely disagree, you however have continually taken pot shots at me for my posting and my views.

The only disturbing thing here is that you seem to have formed a judgement on something without even having any knowledge about it.

Holy crap! So now it's all about mind control? Just kidding.

 

[Big Cat Lover]

Take for instance my Mother, she is a converted Muslim who converted once she Married my father, she doesn't wear a Hijab or a Burqa, the Quran doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want, it's more of a guide to a healthy life of proper living.

So it's a lifestyle book?

Wonder if Al Jazeera shows "Better Homes and Burqa's" before the Friday night footy like us?

 

[MightyTiger]

Take for instance my Mother, she is a converted Muslim who converted once she Married my father, she doesn't wear a Hijab or a Burqa, the Quran doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want, it's more of a guide to a healthy life of proper living.

So it's a lifestyle book?

Wonder if Al Jazeera shows "Better Homes and Burqa's" before the Friday night footy like us?

:hihi :rofl

 

[Willo]

Take for instance my Mother, she is a converted Muslim who converted once she Married my father, she doesn't wear a Hijab or a Burqa, the Quran doesn't force anyone to do anything they don't want, it's more of a guide to a healthy life of proper living.

So it's a lifestyle book?

Wonder if Al Jazeera shows "Better Homes and Burqa's" before the Friday night footy like us?

:hihi



I hope they only eat halal Hungry Jacks burqa's

 

[KnightersRevenge]

So are you telling me when you go out and see a hot looking girl you don't have any sexual thoughts? And please don't say no as it would simply be a lie, every man has it programmed inside there heads to have sexual thoughts when they see another Female they are attracted to.

Holy crap! So now it's all about mind control? Just kidding.

Hey MT, I was making light of you're above quote it because I don't want to get drawn in to this too deeply, I don't have a personal connection to this issue. I was just pointing out that you're post suggested that a reason for dressing a certain way was to control the involuntary thoughts of another person. That is taking things a bit far for my liking. I watched Q&A last night and there was a brief discussion of this issue. It was emphasised that the dress code was one of personal female choice. The young muslim woman on the panel said it was not about men at all. I like this idea though I have an instinctive distrust of it as I feel it is an academic point of view.

 

[glantone]

Syed's quote you posted:

So are you telling me when you go out and see a hot looking girl you don't have any sexual thoughts? And please don't say no as it would simply be a lie, every man has it programmed inside there heads to have sexual thoughts when they see another Female they are attracted to. Heck I even do it myself and I'm a Muslim man, does it make me a bad person? No it makes me Human.

I'm not to sure what point you are trying to make with this, and as to the bolded part, don't be so naive, you know very well that this is a Male dominant world, whether it's right or wrong is a different story but in all walks of life the Female will always be judged differently to the Male.

It's a bit like when you hear a story of your mate banging a bunch of chicks, and to all your mates he's a hero, a champion and will be the envy of all your friends, but then same scenario but it's a Female and all the guys find out about how many Men she had slept with or what have you, and now all of a sudden she is a dirty , no good skank and no one wants to talk to her any more or have anything to do with her and they start spreading dirty rumours about her.


:gotigers

Um, …sad to say I’m pretty much past it these days, Mighty, but even in my prime and even when there were lashings of female thigh visible I never felt compelled to suddenly mount their legs as they sat on the sofa sipping tea and reading Vogue. Time and place for everything.

Brought up in a feminist household where female nudity was not uncommon I find your attitude towards both women and men interesting. Why would you even suggest that having sexual thoughts could be perceived as bad, by anyone of any faith?

Do you think that at the mere sight of a bit of cleavage most men irrespective of their faith become incapable of conducting themselves in a non threatening manner towards women or by default have a right to assert themselves sexually?

I guess the point I was getting at was everything you are telling me can be traced back to a blueprint developed by men for men. You say that it’s a male dominated world and rightly or wrongly women will always be judged differently to the male but who is doing the judging, Mighty, and with what authority do they judge? Just because men can knock women out cold (and lets face it, that’s the only reason men run the world) it doesn’t mean they have to.

That many Muslim women can only feel liberated when under cover only serves to highlight how incapable many Muslim men appear to be at seeing women as individuals and equals.

And, no, if I had a friend male or female who was banging more often than a dunny door on a saturday night I’m not thinking I wish it were me, I’m thinking Hep C, herpies, warts and making mental notes to never share the same glass with him/her. No thanks!

Eat em alive, Tiges!

 

[dukeos]

When travelling, I respect the laws and culture of the land, as does my wife.

If in a conservative country, we respectfully cover up.

The burqa tends to make most westerners uncomfortable.

 

[Tiger74]

When travelling, I respect the laws and culture of the land, as does my wife.

If in a conservative country, we respectfully cover up.

The burqa tends to make most westerners uncomfortable.

Hipsters on fat people make me feel uncomfortable, but it doesn't mean people should be banned from wearing them.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

When travelling, I respect the laws and culture of the land, as does my wife.

If in a conservative country, we respectfully cover up.

The burqa tends to make most westerners uncomfortable.

I find people have an unjustified expectation that their personal religious beliefs entitle them to be treated differently. That the state or private citizens ought to respect their choice. Why should that be? Your religious choice is personal, it is not related to the state or to me. That is why their should be no expectation on journals not to print the image of Mohammed if want to. Your choice of lifestyle doesn't affect them.
That does not mean it is okay to discriminate against a person based on that choice, but it also does not mean that the person should expect others or the state to make an exception for them either. So wear the burqa if you like, but if you wish to interact in a situation where that isn't appropriate, eg banks, police stations, swimming pools, courts of law, then there should be no expectation that these institutions should ammend their procedures to accomodate you. It is your choice.

 

[Tiger74]

I find people have an unjustified expectation that their personal religious beliefs entitle them to be treated differently. That the state or private citizens ought to respect their choice. Why should that be? Your religious choice is personal, it is not related to the state or to me. That is why their should be no expectation on journals not to print the image of Mohammed if want to. Your choice of lifestyle doesn't affect them.
That does not mean it is okay to discriminate against a person based on that choice, but it also does not mean that the person should expect others or the state to make an exception for them either. So wear the burqa if you like, but if you wish to interact in a situation where that isn't appropriate, eg banks, police stations, swimming pools, courts of law, then there should be no expectation that these institutions should ammend their procedures to accomodate you. It is your choice.

Again, a burqa is removed for security reasons at passport control, for photo IDS, for entry into a bank (although some make special appointments for existing clients), and so on.

Also schools (and not Islamic ones) have been allowed to discriminate in hiring to ensure their teachers are of the same faith as the school, so some degree of discrimination is permitted by the state.