Atheism

[jayfox]

Perhaps you didn't explain it well . I mean know as a person, not completely define. What do you mean by 'knowable'?

I tried asking them that question too DJ and evo didn't answer me either. If you want a debate with someone then you probably should clarify your standing on the core issue before you go any further, I'd have thought.

 

[jayfox]

but if I don't believe because I have never felt it/seen god, I will be treated no better than a mass murderer after life. Even worse if they repent ('feel God') at the eleventh hour.
This is what I completely object to & totally reject.

As I said some folks just don't 'feel' what you do, yet according to the Bible & yourself they will be punished for all eternity because of that?

All this on the back of word of mouth.
Crazy.

I am not scared of something I can't see or have no physical evidence of.
If I do end up in Hell or whatever it is because of that, so be it.

So don't believe it. No-one's holding a gun to your head. We're only trying to warn you that's all. I'd suggest it requires a lot more looking into than it appears that you have done, however, but that is up to you.

 

[Disco08]

Jay, does the fact that millions of people have claimed to have seen UFO's and aliens constitute prrof that they exist?

 

[Tigers of Old]

So don't believe it. No-one's holding a gun to your head. We're only trying to warn you that's all. I'd suggest it requires a lot more looking into than it appears that you have done, however, but that is up to you.

Watch out for those Aliens jayfox, they are coming to get you Christians and take you away to do awful experiments on you I have been told.
Believe it or not at your own peril but don't say I didn't warn you.

 

[jayfox]

Jay, does the fact that millions of people have claimed to have seen UFO's and aliens constitute prrof that they exist?

Do you really think that it is 'millions' of people who have claimed to have seen UFO's? I'd seriously question that. If it was over the tens of thousands, I'd be surprised.

But in answer to your question, some of them would be after attention, some would be near crazy and some would certainly have seen something. The meaning of UFO is Unidentified Flying Object. I am sure for those that saw something they could not identify it. Does that mean it contained aliens or was from outer space? No.

 

[jayfox]

Watch out for those Aliens jayfox, they are coming to get you Christians and take you away to do awful experiments on you I have been told.
Believe it or not at your own peril but don't say I didn't warn you.

Hey, thanks for the warning. I really appreciate it. I'll do what I can to find out how to avoid that happening. Cheers.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Hey, thanks for the warning. I really appreciate it. I'll do what I can to find out how to avoid that happening. Cheers.

Stop believing in God. ;D

 

[Disco08]

Do you really think that it is 'millions' of people who have claimed to have seen UFO's? I'd seriously question that. If it was over the tens of thousands, I'd be surprised.

But in answer to your question, some of them would be after attention, some would be near crazy and some would certainly have seen something. The meaning of UFO is Unidentified Flying Object. I am sure for those that saw something they could not identify it. Does that mean it contained aliens or was from outer space? No.

The Roper Poll

In 1991, Hopkins, Jacobs and sociologist Dr. Ron Westrum commissioned a Roper Poll in order to determine how many Americans might have experienced the abduction phenomenon. Of nearly 6,000 Americans, 119 answered in a way that Hopkins et al interpreted as supporting their ET interpretation of the abduction phenomenon. Based on this figure, Hopkins estimated that nearly four million Americans might have been abducted by extraterrestrials

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_abduction#The_Roper_Poll

This is people claiming to have seen and been abducted by aliens. The number claiming to have seen spaceships is considerably larger.

So 4 millions people roughly claim to have seen aliens. Is this proof of their existence?

 

[Tigers of Old]

All jesting aside jay.
Do you think it depends on how much that you read about religion that determines how much you should 'feel God' or not?
I would have thought it should be a lot simpler than that.

I'll admit I haven't burrowed into the depths of it like some here but I doubt that should determine whether or not I believe in God and Jesus or not.
Seems like a pretty restricting condition of entering heaven going by how much you read the word or otherwise.

 

[jb03]

The Roper Poll

In 1991, Hopkins, Jacobs and sociologist Dr. Ron Westrum commissioned a Roper Poll in order to determine how many Americans might have experienced the abduction phenomenon. Of nearly 6,000 Americans, 119 answered in a way that Hopkins et al interpreted as supporting their ET interpretation of the abduction phenomenon. Based on this figure, Hopkins estimated that nearly four million Americans might have been abducted by extraterrestrials

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_abduction#The_Roper_Poll

This is people claiming to have seen and been abducted by aliens. The number claiming to have seen spaceships is considerably larger.

So 4 millions people roughly claim to have seen aliens. Is this proof of their existence?

Patsy, too many uses of vague words. Would need better proof than that. For the first time in this thread, I think McFly might be right.

 

[AngryAnt]

I guess you didn't think much of the way I worded that then!

Serious questions. Either we are in His image or we are not. Still interested to see what religion God is a devotee of, and how He looks if we are in His image, and what - logically and philosophically - this actually means in terms of reproduction and all the evolutionary features we have.

Genuinely interested in how you can resolve this.

 

[jayfox]

All jesting aside jay.
Do you think it depends on how much that you read about religion that determines how much you should 'feel God' or not?
I would have thought it should be a lot simpler than that.

I'll admit I haven't burrowed into the depths of it like some here but I doubt that should determine whether or not I believe in God and Jesus or not.
Seems like a pretty restricting condition of entering heaven going by how much you read the word or otherwise.

The amount of reading has nothing to do with it. I am just saying that, IMO, you need to delve into it enough to be able to make an educated decision, to do a decision of this magnitude justice, not just pass it off so easily.

 

[jayfox]

Patsy, too many uses of vague words. Would need better proof than that. For the first time in this thread, I think McFly might be right.

Thanks JDumB03. I was going to say that it sounds like a load of crap to me but you beat me to it. (and said it in a far nicer way.) As I have said before, I reckon that if the total number who actually claim to have been abducted by aliens was more than the tens of thousands then I'd be very surprised. Does anyone on this site know of anyone who claims this? I certainly don't and don't know of anyone who does.

 

[Disco08]

Patsy, too many uses of vague words. Would need better proof than that. For the first time in this thread, I think McFly might be right.

You can get proof if you look at individual accounts. All the poll did was try to find an estimiate.

For example, this study seems to show that at the least those that make these claims believe they are genuine:

UFO researcher Jenny Randles cited "an interesting study in which individuals were asked to describe imaginary alien abductions." (Bryan, 49) If these invented scenarios were similar to allegedly genuine abduction accounts, it might demonstrate that supposedly genuine accounts were indistinguishable from invented accounts. The study, however, found little in common between the two types of narratives, and the intense emotional reactions of actual abductees when recounting their experience, are absent. Bryan writes "Randles's findings strike me as significant: people who are asked to describe imaginary abductions do not come up with the scenarios, sequences or beings described by the overwhelming majority of abductees. The 'medical examination,' such a major, recurring aspect of the abductees stories, is entirely absent from the imaginer's accounts."

Lets not also forget that the poll was administered in 1991, in the US only. I think if you take into account all the claims made since and in other countries it's not hard to believe that at least 1 million people have made genuine claims.

Thanks JDumB03. I was going to say that it sounds like a load of crap to me but you beat me to it. (and said it in a far nicer way.) As I have said before, I reckon that if the total number who actually claim to have been abducted by aliens was more than the tens of thousands then I'd be very surprised. Does anyone on this site know of anyone who claims this? I certainly don't and don't know of anyone who does.

Just humour me Jay. If millions of people have claimed to have seen an alien(s), does this constitute prrof of their existence?

 

[AngryAnt]

Patsy, too many uses of vague words. Would need better proof than that. For the first time in this thread, I think McFly might be right.

All these descriptors are applicable to any survey which has less than a 100% sample size. Now whether the survey methodology was valid or not is a completely different question.

 

[Tigers of Old]

The amount of reading has nothing to do with it. I am just saying that, IMO, you need to delve into it enough to be able to make an educated decision, to do a decision of this magnitude justice, not just pass it off so easily.

I think it's a lot simpler than you think it is.

Seems to me there's a lot of hoo ha on both sides of the argument in this thread and no one really knows the answer and probably never will. However as humans we naturally try to rationalise our existence whether that be through the Bible or efforts to discount it.

I don't really know either way but according to you I will be punished for that regardless if I don't believe in God or even if I claim not to know the answer.
It's as simple as one or the other with the Bible which in itself I find offensive.

Personally I have more to worry about than reading oodles of text on both sides of the argument as my thoughts are unlikely to change based on my 'feel'.

However the truth is out there..

 

[AngryAnt]

Personally I have more to worry about than reading oodles of text on both sides of the argument as my thoughts are unlikely to change based on my 'feel'.

True, but knowledge of self often comes when opinions are challenged from outside.

For me, this dialogue confirms that jf and DJ have a belief/faith which they then seek desperately to validate by trying to fit the (square) evidence into a (round) hole and going through terrible mental contortions to do so.

Whenever the evidence based argument gets too hard for JF he falls back onto this anyway. "I KNOW God exists because I feel HIM and by the way so do many other people". As Disco said many many other people truly believe that UFOs are "out there" and really do carry little aliens around who look at us and occasionally anally probe us apparently. "I believe and so do lots of other people" is not evidence. Sorry, but it's not.

As I've suggested, they should forget this approach and just say "my religion is my faith - I don't understand how God operates and how He made us into existence" and leave it at that rather than relying on wacky philosophers like Platinga or dubious extrapolations on what Noah's Ark actually looked like because in the end, it all comes down to personal belief.

As for me, I base my lack of belief in a God wholly in the fact that I have never seen any evidence of him, and the logical/philosophical/theological arguments for Him existing don't hold water, to put it bluntly. Difference is, as soon as I am shown hard evidence I'll have no problem conceding the fact that God does exist.

Just look at how Djevy is struggling with the simple question of "what is God's religion" and "why does he have genitals then" for the trouble these guys have in trying to maintain a logical or evidence based explanation of God.

 

[evo]

I think it's a lot simpler than you think it is.

Seems to me there's a lot of hoo ha on both sides of the argument in this thread and no one really knows the answer and probably never will. However as humans we naturally try to rationalise our existence whether that be through the Bible or efforts to discount it.

I don't really know either way but according to you I will be punished for that regardless if I don't believe in God or even if I claim not to know the answer.
It's as simple as one or the other with the Bible which in itself I find offensive.

Personally I have more to worry about than reading oodles of text on both sides of the argument as my thoughts are unlikely to change based on my 'feel'.

However the truth is out there..

Without realising it,you have picked a 'side'.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Without realising it,you have picked a 'side'.

No I actually do realise that bevo and that's why I dislike the heavy handedness of Christianity because even if you are Agnostic, once you have heard the word of Christ you are off to the gallows unless you follow that path.

as soon as I am shown hard evidence I'll have no problem conceding the fact that God does exist.

I would too but words are not enough.

 

[evo]

No I actually do realise that bevo and that's why I dislike the heavy handedness of Christianity because even if you are Agnostic, once you have heard the word of Christ you are off to the gallows unless you follow that path.

I would too but words are not enough.

Bugger calling yourself an agnostic;be an ignostic.

You are making no claims(well except for the claim that we can never know),put the burdon of proof on people who are.