Atheism

[jayfox]

Hah! Still going!
It is all funny stuff. 'Many liberal Christians believe this and that'. Theology is like listening to my three year old justify drawing on the mirror with crayon- any explanation that fits my political and cultural needs will do!
Seriously, you guys give religion too much courtesy - it is a medieval JOKE - no different to burning witches and worthy of no higher respect.

Followed by Billions and Billions of people, in many forms, across the world.

And that's the sort of tolerance we're after as a society, Hipster. Can you imagine the outcry if people made the same claims about racial issues? Everyone on this site would rightly slam you down.

 

[Djevv]

You've been asking alot of questions, I might ask you one if i may.

Is God unknowable-- Yes/No?

No.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Followed by Billions and Billions of people, in many forms, across the world.

And that's the sort of tolerance we're after as a society, Hipster. Can you imagine the outcry if people made the same claims about racial issues? Everyone on this site would rightly slam you down.

So we shouldn't question irrational behaviour as a society? It should be 'tolerated'? Where did faith attain such sacrosanct protection from rational questioning and analysis? How is it that you can have societies on this planet right now that condone what we would consider inhuman acts of barbarity? It is the protection of 'faith' from criticism by religious moderates that provides these 'extremists' with a degree of freedom to practice their 'faith' to the point of lunacy in some cases.

Believe whatever you like but don't expect others to respect that belief if you can't even begin to provide a rational basis for it.

Racial issues and religious freedom have nothing in common.

 

[AngryAnt]

simply because God has made us naturally (as we are made in His image) interested in religion.

Does that mean God has a religion? If so, what is it? Does he worship himself? Or does he have a God that he reports to and so on, ad infinitum?

God created man in His own Image apparently. Where did that "image" come from? Why does God have our reproductive organs then? Why would he need them if he is God? Does he have both male and female genitalia?

What about neanderthal man? Were they people with souls, made in God's image? If so, why is their image different from that of contemporary humans? Is God black or white or Asian in appearance? All at once? If so, why?

 

[AngryAnt]

OK. Perhaps TEs believe god is the organising principle behind all the complexity. I don't know of any scientific principle that states that things get more complex and organised with time, so its a bit of a mystery.

Evolution is one of these.

Chaos theory (which is poorly named) explains how complex and seemingly random systems are in fact organised and self-organising.

 

[evo]

No.

Ok,lets do a bit of philosophy then:

If God is knowable (IYO), then ontologically we have to put him/it in the category of 'things/objects '/'entities ' ....otherwise it can't be 'known'

Things/entities rely on other things by which to contrast them. For example you can recognize the keyboard in front of you because it ....(isn't the desk it's sitting on,and it isn't the air surrounding it etc) This is expressed in the philosophical axiom and the basic foundation of all thinking A=A otherwise expressed as A=not(-A) .....(the law of identity)

But your contention is that God created everything.He was the first 'thing'. The uncaused caused.He was 'before' other things.

As you might be starting to see(but i doubt it),philosphically speaking, that position is untenable.It doesn't conform to the most basic tennet of human thinking A=A.


In short it is nonsense.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

So I get a little incredulous about everything being a result of nothing and matter being the explanation for its self. Sorry. Some might call it healthy skeptisism .

So you resort to an explanation that is less likely and lacks any evidence compared to the model that you choose to discard through personal incredulity? That is not healthy skepticism, that is some sort of twisted ad hoc justification for your religious beliefs.

You are the one banging on about evolution, not me .

Stars, planets, galaxies and even matter its self are all examples of non-biological complexity.

We were have a discussion about natural selection and you were skeptical....that is an evolutionary mechanism for biological life. It was you who strayed onto another topic, clouding your response to my questions. If you want to extend the discussion to other areas of complexity in the universe then that is fine (although stars, planets and galaxies follow the relatively simple physical laws of Newton and Einstein).

OK. My hypothesis predicts that a whole bunch of atheists, to who religion allegedly means nothing, would turn a Q&A thread started by an earnest Christian into a 400 page slanging match, simply because God has made us naturally (as we are made in His image) interested in religion.

No, my interest is in the fallacious claims that you (and others) have made on this thread. It just so happens that your motive for making such claims is the justification of your religious beliefs.

The _____________ you believe resulted in the universe we live in.

Perhaps there was no beginning? Perhaps it is cyclical? I personally am not sure, and I am comfortable with that. Not being a physicist, I am not overly qualified to comment on these things. One thing I am sure of is that you (and other religious adherents) are as ignorant as I am on these matters. Your explanation has no basis and raises more questions than it answers.

I think religion, philosophy science and many other subjects are like that. The more you learn, the more you realise there is to learn.

You are deflecting. I'll repeat myself, your 'God hypothesis' raises more questions than it answers. This is quite different from a good scientific theory, which is based on observation, is simple and has strong predictive power.

OK. Perhaps TEs believe god is the organising principle behind all the complexity. I don't know of any scientific principle that states that things get more complex and organised with time, so its a bit of a mystery.

What? You raised the issues of sandcastles on the beach and then you say this?

 

[jayfox]

It doesn't conform to the most basic tennet of human thinking A=A.

And there it is in a nutshell. How can our limited human minds expect to understand the wonders of a Supernatural, Omnipotent, everlasting creator? Nothing here on Earth can compare to Him.

 

[AngryAnt]

And there it is in a nutshell. How can our limited human minds expect to understand the wonders of a Supernatural, Omnipotent, everlasting creator? Nothing here on Earth can compare to Him.

Oh dear, we have a schism. Jayfox says God is unknowable, Djevy says He/She/It is.

 

[jayfox]

So we shouldn't question irrational behaviour as a society? It should be 'tolerated'? Where did faith attain such sacrosanct protection from rational questioning and analysis? How is it that you can have societies on this planet right now that condone what we would consider inhuman acts of barbarity? It is the protection of 'faith' from criticism by religious moderates that provides these 'extremists' with a degree of freedom to practice their 'faith' to the point of lunacy in some cases.

Believe whatever you like but don't expect others to respect that belief if you can't even begin to provide a rational basis for it.

Racial issues and religious freedom have nothing in common.

Get off your high horse for a minute and read what he actually said.

Seriously, you guys give religion too much courtesy - it is a medieval JOKE - no different to burning witches and worthy of no higher respect.

Religion in general is worthy of no higher respect and is no different to burning witches??? I'll be sure to tell that to all of the compassionate, charitable Christians and Christian Charities that I know of. This thread has become absurd.

 

[evo]

And there it is in a nutshell. How can our limited human minds expect to understand the wonders of a Supernatural, Omnipotent, everlasting creator? Nothing here on Earth can compare to Him.

It's said with not even a modicum of irony.

God ia unknowable,yet you a human,feels qualified to speak about him/it.

Not only that, but you know what he wants!! :whistle

 

[evo]

Oh dear, we have a schism. Jayfox says God is unknowable, Djevy says He/She/It is.

They can't even agree on the most basic of premises.

My work here is done. ;D

 

[AngryAnt]

They can't even agree on the most basic of premises.

My work here is done. ;D

My money is on Djevy if they go head to head on this.

 

[jayfox]

Oh dear, we have a schism. Jayfox says God is unknowable, Djevy says He/She/It is.

No we don't. Define 'know'. I also agree that you can 'know' God but that doesn;t mean that you will 'know' every single thing about Him. I can know you but not know all aspects about you including what goes on in your mind, for example.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Get off your high horse for a minute and read what he actually said.

I was responding to what you said. Again you fail to respond directly to my criticisms, instead choosing to be put out.

Religion in general is worthy of no higher respect and is no different to burning witches??? I'll be sure to tell that to all of the compassionate, charitable Christians and Christian Charities that I know of. This thread has become absurd.

I have often said that religion does offer something....it is just those damn pesky, exclusive, supernatural dogmas that cause more damage than can be offset by the good. What do the supernatural beliefs have to do with the charity work? One isn't required for the other.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

My money is on Djevy if they go head to head on this.

:hihi

 

[jayfox]

It's said with not even a modicum of irony.

God ia unknowable,yet you a human,feels qualified to speak about him/it.

Not only that, but you know what he wants!! :whistle

God is unknowable in His entirety whilst we are on this Earth. Correct. For example, does anyone know what His face looks like? Does that mean we can't get to know Him and His desire for our lives through reading His word and communicating with Him? Of course not. I reckon it is very simple.

 

[jayfox]

I was responding to what you said. Again you fail to respond directly to my criticisms, instead choosing to be put out.

Perhaps if you want to have a decent debate, and you are not getting the responses you are looking for right now, you should adjust your posting style and you might see a difference.

When you support a post containing the words -
"Seriously, you guys give religion too much courtesy - it is a medieval JOKE - no different to burning witches and worthy of no higher respect." then don't expect to get a detailed response to your questions from me. End of story. If that is your level of thinking then there is no point discussing it further.

 

[Tigers of Old]

God is unknowable in His entirety whilst we are on this Earth. Correct. For example, does anyone know what His face looks like? Does that mean we can't get to know Him and His desire for our lives through reading His word and communicating with Him? Of course not. I reckon it is very simple.

Seems like a direct contrast to me there Jayfox.

We don't know him but we do?

My single biggest issue with religion in general is that no one on earth has ever seen God, Heaven or Hell for that matter, yet so many have blind faith without genuine proof.

Can't really see much difference between that and people believing in the existince of UFOs & the Loch Ness monster.

 

[evo]

God is unknowable in His entirety whilst we are on this Earth. Correct. For example, does anyone know what His face looks like? Does that mean we can't get to know Him and His desire for our lives through reading His word and communicating with Him? Of course not. I reckon it is very simple.

well it is simple if you constantly contradict yourself.God is not knowable--but I know him!!!

Unfortunately if one isn't even willing to follow the most basic rule of non contradiction and identity, as old as Aristotle himself, then that person is likely to spout any sort of nonsense at the drop of a hat

And ussually does.