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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Atheism
- Thread starter Disco08
- Start date
Six Pack said:
What? You think heaven is a minimalist contruct with white walls only? If it does exist, wouldn't an ideal paradise have plants and animals in it, and where the heck you think these come from
Yes Jay, I am still campaigning against your denial of Puppy Heaven!!!
What a load of crap that is. "animals are never cruel - they act out of necessity to survive." Tell that to my cat who plays with a bird or mouse for an hour, tossing it around at will and pretending to let it escape before finally putting it out of it's misery, but not eating it. I reckon the bird would think that the cat is pretty cruel for treating it like that.antman said:
Secondly, how do you know what the psychology of animal relationships is, or if they are even capable of feeling the same kinds of betrayal etc. that a human spouse might feel. And there are plenty of examples in the animal world of what we might call 'illicit' or promiscuous sex.
Six Pack said:
My point was a reaction to your statment that for you 'beyond our lives is random'.
Everything we perceive is part of ourselves, so your 'beyond our lives' can't exist, because as soon as you've formulated the idea it is part of you and is encapsulated in your universe. No thing that you can envisage is beyond your existence.
This 'beyond our lives' then isn't random because it's been formulated as part of your own thought process/emotional perception and has that as it's own internal logic.
jayfox said:
I could tell it to your cat but as the cat is not human, doesn't understand speech (or the concept of cruelty) I'd be wasting my time and the cat's. Seeing animals as evil, cruel or whatever is simple anthropomorphism (projecting human qualities onto animals).
I am really challenging your "we are above the animals" - it's part of Christian theology I know, but to use a phrase of yours, "what a lot of crap".
I understand enough to know that it is meaningless to try to label animal behaviours as being cruel, evil, illicit, promiscuous which are concepts relating to human behaviour.
Six Pack said:
The scientist in me bridles at that suggestion. There IS an objective reality, and those of us significantly out of step with it are certified insane ;D.
I also believe that part of objective reality is the concept of a self-existant God - the initiator, creator and sustainer of this universe. Materialist scientists, who go no further than the evidence, have realised the universe must have a beginning, but refuse to speculate further. I believe it is both scientifically reasonable and nessecary to postulate a sufficient cause for the universe. Start from this point and you quickly deduce a Judeo-Christian concept of God.
This means that a supernatural IS objective reality and undergirds the universe. As evidence for this I would cite the numerous supernatural occurances and experiences of people recorded through the centuries.
The Bible is a record of divine history and records the dealings of men with God. Much of it is written in a factual style and can be checked against historical and archaeological records. Can I prove it is the word of God? No, but I would expect that our creator would communicate with us and I believe the the Bible has a good chance of being those communications.
Jesus and the New Testament is the full revelation of God to man. It contains the overlapping testimony of four separate eyewitnesses to the events in question as well as numerous checkable references to historical events. No serious modern scholar doubts the veracity of these documents and that they were written relatively soon after the events described. Jesus life is also described by a number of contemporary secular writings.
In all of the above I have used no faith! BUT DONT BELIEVE ME FOR A SECOND go check this for yourself!!
There is no such thing as an 'objective reality'.To humans it can only ever be subjective.We are limited by the senses.Djevv said:
There is a 'Reality', but discovering what this is is fairly illusive-especially for you mere scientists. ;D
As soon as you say 'I' believe, it's no long objectively speaking, is it.You've introduced the subject to the object(Reality).
Furthermore the fact that sixpack has no God in his reality,but you do, further shows the subjectiveness.You can't both be right 'objectively'
They might be able to say potentially there is "a beginning',but if the're materialists they won't be able to say they've witnessed 'the begining'
Where's the first cause?
Thank God for that.Best to leave it to the philosophers (IMO of course). ;D
meh
Hogwash.Talk about a non sequiter.Just because you believe doesn't mean it follows there is one.
Yikes.
I checked.No evidence.Just some nice iron age stories.
antman said:
I never said the cat was evil, only cruel, which you stated that they never are. I disagree. I don't know how you can think otherwise with the situation I just gave you. Obviously the cat is less aware of the affects of his behaviour on the bird or mouse than we are but that does not mean that his behaviour is not cruel to that creature.
evo said:
Where there's smoke theres fire! Certainly many stories of supernatural occurances are dodgy, but are you sure they all are? There have been scientific studies of NDEs. Remember, if theres a supernatural, theres a God.
evo said:I checked.No evidence.Just some nice iron age stories.
And Bronze age ones!
But you might need to dig a little deeper than WIKI
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Six Pack said:
In regards to faith and practice and telling us everything required to know God and be saved, yes!
The 'word of God' is exactly that, what God would have us know of Himself. What he would speak to us.Disco08 said:
However, if you try and take the written material out of it's context and cultural setting then you are asking for trouble. It doesn't claim to be a science or History textbook, in the modern sense, although it is accurate where this is required for God's purposes to be fulfilled.
