Atheism

[jayfox]

On the subject of lying,personally i tell people the truth wherever possible,it seems to me a good policy. If nans roast sucked ,i tell her so, politely but truthfully.

If people can't handle the truth thats a problem of their ego.

I agree Evo. I also think it takes far more courage to tell the truth than to lie and say what people want to hear, in many cases

 

[jayfox]

But I thought it was God not playing favourites?!?! Which one....make a choice...no fence sitting.

I am not fence sitting. They are not mutually exclusive thoughts.

 

[evo]

I agree Evo. I also think it takes far more courage to tell the truth than to lie and say what people want to hear, in many cases

Well then I have to wonder why you keep calling Pantera,Duckman,I and recently antman arrogant.We're just calling it as we see it.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I honestly can't understand this comment at all. If I was looking for an easy way out why would I have stayed posting on this topic for over 500 pages? Seriously? I want you to answer that? The easy way out would be to stop posting and ignore this thread. :

You haven't addressed the point I was making.

I don't mean an easy way out of posting (I certainly couldn't accuse you of that), rather an easy way out of the argument. Instead of addressing the posted argument a cry of "religious discrimination" seems to be an easy way out.

 

[Six Pack]

hey the plastic jesus has reappeared!

 

[jayfox]

On the issue of lying, I'm still waiting for the Christians to explain why if lying is a sin and abhorrent to God it's OK for Christian apologists, theologists and Intelligent Design protagonists to lie rather than present intellectually honest arguments.

It's not okay to lie and it is a sin. I believe that, certainly most, Christians who believe in Intelligent Design wholeheartedly believe it. They may choose to look at the evidence differently to the way that you do, they may even have a pre-conceived bias in their research, but that does not mean that they are liars.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

hey the plastic jesus has reappeared!

The plastic Jesus never leaves (for me at least).

 

[Rosy]

Is this an attack on a poster or series of posters with particular beliefs? I am asking Disco and Rosy seriously because I want to know where the boundaries are? Is calling someone weak minded because of their beliefs acceptable, when they are clearly as or, in some people's cases, far more intelligent and strong minded than the poster making the accusation? Or is it heading towards religious discrimination? Serious question.

Nobody was called weak minded. Snake posted his own opinion without personalising it and didn't attack anyone at all.

Serious questions..well as serious as I think yours are-

Is claiming someone with beliefs is "clearly far more intelligent and strong minded" heading towards intellectual discrimination against those without such beliefs? Is that an attack on a poster or series of posters without particular beliefs? How do you measure intelligence and strong mindedness?

 

[Six Pack]

maybe its just me then that the plastic jesus chooses to confuse :-\

 

[evo]

maybe its just me then that the plastic jesus chooses to confuse :-\

The lord moves in mysterious ways.

 

[jayfox]

Well then I have to wonder why you keep calling Pantera,Duckman,I and recently antman arrogant.We're just calling it as we see it.

I don't know if I have ever called you arrogant have I? I certainly have called Antman and Pantera that because that is the impression that I get from their posts. Their posts, to me, bring the impression of "I can't believe that you believe in God and not evolution. How stupid are you people". I have faith. I don;t have all of the answers but I know the One who does. Just because I have Faith in a higher being and don't think that man's research is infallible doesn't make me any less important or intelligent than any other poster on this site, IMO.

Now, if I was being dishonest then I would say that I love their posts and that I don;t find them arrogant. Perhaps it is their ego's that have the problem with me telling the truth?

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

It's not okay to lie and it is a sin. I believe that, certainly most, Christians who believe in Intelligent Design wholeheartedly believe it. They may choose to look at the evidence differently to the way that you do, they may even have a pre-conceived bias in their research, but that does not mean that they are liars.

The post was about intellectual dishonesty.

"Looking at the evidence differently" does not represent what they are doing.

The main proponents of ID at the Discovery Institute are pushing the barrow of getting creationism back into classrooms in the United States under the guise of an alternative scientific theory. The leaked 'wedge document' that I posted a link to in the Christianity thread is clear on this matter. This was also the findings of the judge of in the Dover trial on whether it was constitutional to teach ID as an alternative to evolution. All of this is blatant dishonesty.

As for the research, I must ask, what research? They misrepresent data, they ignore contradictory data and they like to constantly 'shift the goalposts' (ie. when they put up the bacterial flagellum as irreducibly complex it was shown not to be, so they then brought up the complement system in the immune system, again shot down, so they move on). All of this represent poor science and intellectual dishonesty. They are a PR machine, no more, no less.

Christians that have bought into the ID movement have been misled by this dishonest PR machine.

 

[Rosy]

I certainly have called Antman and Pantera that because that is the impression that I get from their posts.

What's the difference between you calling someone "arrogant" and the "weak minded" comments of tigersnake's that you've questioned? To me your comments, in the context of your questioning, are worse because yours are personal.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I don't know if I have ever called you arrogant have I? I certainly have called Antman and Pantera that because that is the impression that I get from their posts. Their posts, to me, bring the impression of "I can't believe that you believe in God and not evolution. How stupid are you people". I have faith. I don;t have all of the answers but I know the One who does. Just because I have Faith in a higher being and don't think that man's research is infallible doesn't make me any less important or intelligent than any other poster on this site, IMO.

Now, if I was being dishonest then I would say that I love their posts and that I don;t find them arrogant. Perhaps it is their ego's that have the problem with me telling the truth?

Keep it coming jay.

I am still waiting for you to provide evidence of this so-called arrogance (and I have asked whenever you have leveled it). I have never suggested that anyone on this thread is stupid. I may question your faith and how you rule out self delusion (which you still haven't really responded to) and I may ask direct questions, but how is this arrogance? I substantiate my arguments and respond to yours.

This accusation of arrogance comes across as another way to dodge the crux of my arguments.

 

[jayfox]

Nobody was called weak minded. Snake posted his own opinion without personalising it and didn't attack anyone at all.

Serious questions..well as serious as I think yours are-

Is claiming someone with beliefs is "clearly far more intelligent and strong minded" heading towards intellectual discrimination against those without such beliefs? Is that an attack on a poster or series of posters without particular beliefs? How do you measure intelligence and strong mindedness?

Thanks for the answer and the stab. My question was serious.

When I said "clearly far more intelligent and strong minded" I was actually referring to Djevv and not myself as I consider him to be as intelligent and knowledgeable as anyone on this thread. Notice I said "in some peoples cases", i.e. I wasn't referring to myself.

Perhaps I shoulde have worded it differently and if any non-believer took offence, then I apologise. (See, I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong).

Tigersnake may not have singled out a poster but he did single out a group however. So, based on that being okay, is it okay for me to say any of the following, without qualifying any evidence to support -

"Homosexuality is for people with no self control"

"Moderating is for people of low intelligence"

"Black people are far less evolved, and therefore closer to the apes, than us white people"

Seriously? I would think that none of those are acceptable and yet not one has attacked an individual?

 

[Six Pack]

Might i suggest that there are weak minded atheists, weak minded christians and weak minded believers and non-believers of all persuasions. Likewise with arrogance. These qualities or weaknesses, or whatever they are, are not the sole domain of any particular group.

 

[AngryAnt]

I don't mind Jayfox's accusation of arrogance, even though it's based on a "perception" of my posts rather than anything concrete, but I've come to understand that for Christians it's all about feelings and faith rather than facts.



Djevv's latest site http://www.big-bang-theory.com/ is a fine example of lying for God. It's Christian apologia, but masquerades as discussion of science. It links to other apologia at sites like http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org, and it's all deep linked from the master page http://www.allaboutscience.org/ which has as its major blurb

Science: Knowledge and Discovery
Science is the human endeavor to discover truths about the world around us. Scientists seek out answers through observation and experimentation. As we discover more and more, we are able to apply what we've learned to develop new technologies and to improve everyday life. But perhaps more importantly, as we gain knowledge through science, we are able to begin satisfying our deep-felt need to know more about ourselves.

All the links go to Christian Apologia.

If this is not lying for God, what is? How do Djevv and Jayfox feel about this obvious dishonesty and deception? Is it OK to lie in this way if it convinces people to believe in God? Does the end justify the means?

 

[jayfox]

I don't mind Jayfox's accusation of arrogance, even though it's based on a "perception" of my posts rather than anything concrete, but I've come to understand that for Christians it's all about feelings and faith rather than facts.



Djevv's latest site http://www.big-bang-theory.com/ is a fine example of lying for God. It's Christian apologia, but masquerades as discussion of science. It links to other apologia at sites like http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org, and it's all deep linked from the master page http://www.allaboutscience.org/ which has as its major blurb

All the links go to Christian Apologia.

If this is not lying for God, what is? How do Djevv and Jayfox feel about this obvious dishonesty and deception? Is it OK to lie in this way if it convinces people to believe in God? Does the end justify the means?

I have said plenty of times that lying is not okay, regardless of the outcome. I haven't looked at those links so will let Djevv comment on them.

Let me ask you this question Antman - Do you think that you have a level of arrogance in your posting on this subject or not?

 

[Six Pack]

i think we all have a 'level' of arrogance in our postings on this topic. Surely we have to, because our beliefs are so diametrically opposed. I firmly believe that Jay is wrong and there is no god. However, he believes it, and that belief is real to him. I dont think that necessarily makes him weak minded or me arrogant, but once we take particular stances these concepts do raise their ugly heads.

I'll always remember the funda christians at uni approaching the sad, the alone and the isolated. They knew who to target alright!

 

[jayfox]

I'll always remember the funda christians at uni approaching the sad, the alone and the isolated. They knew who to target alright!

Perhaps they were trying to help people who needed it? Besides, an absolute minimal number of believers would be converted in that way. I don;t know of anyone at my church who became a Christian because they were down and someone approached them at Uni.