Atheism

[Djevv]

You are disregarding population size in your estimates. In one individual, yes, 520 base pair mutations is ridiculous...but we aren't talking about a single individual but large populations (that would have had some level of sequence diversity at the speciation event to begin with). When you look at it that way, that is not a great deal of change over the timescale, given the population.

But each mutation needs to be fixed in the population as a whole to become part of the genetic makeup of the species. So I would have thought the mutation affects the individual, and since it is beneficial, becomes part of the genome. So this is roughly 520 beneficial mutations to individuals per generation. Still a lot. Do we know how large the original populations were?

But if God created Adam and Eve and then let 'nature takes its course' you would need to come up with something far greater than the 520 bp per generation per individual figure that we were talking about above. How can you be incredulous about one explanation and posit a less likely scenario as an explanation for your model?

How much in % terms of a whole species Genome could two individuals possess? Would the model be possible given more time?

Variation only enters a population through germ line mutations that are inherited and either are lost or become fixed. How would your God have achieved this? why doesn't he continue to do it? Why would he introduce the variations that lead to devastating genetic disease? Why do the mental gymnastics to explain this? The more likely scenario is already available. This would be an example of disregarding the obvious explanation to fit your preconceived conclusion (ie special creation)....where is Occam's Razor now?

Like I have said in the past I have not come to any fixed conclusions about these things and am just asking questions that interest me.

First off....only the most extreme adaptationist would claim that everything in a genome is there for its selective advantage. There are variations in genomes that are there through chance mutation...genetic drift explains this type of variation. Selective breeding by humans has done just that...selected variations in the wolf population that were desirable for the breeders. Over time and through constantly selecting for these variants, even if the mutations underlying them were rare, the impressive morphological differences will start to show. This has occurred in all domestic species (check out the wild version of corn, teosinte...massive difference). The traits of the Shi Tzu, would probably have been a disadvantage for the wolf, however they were an advantage for the Shi Tzu, because of its breeders. Again, this is very common in domesticated plants and animals (what about the loss of head shattering in wheat for seed dispersal...that is certainly not helpful to the plant, but excellent for the farmer and one of the key mutations in the domestication of wheat ~8,500 years ago).

Surely an allele must be of some advantage to become part of the genome of a species, except if it is a short lived non-beneficial mutation. But overall good answer, thanks.

 

[Djevv]

What I don't understand is why this has to explained to a science teacher(of all people).It's freakin' self evident to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of evolution.

I admire your patience to respond to this nonsense, dude.Maybe you should be a teacher.

I wanted Evo to have a go! I mean this is basic stuff, any child can do it! :hihi

BTW I agree about the cartoon, reminds me of something............................can't think what.

 

[evo]

Well go on, answer the question!

Step 1 : Forget about the phrase "survival of the fittest"

Step 2 Luke 4: 23 "Physician heal thyself "

 

[Djevv]

Here ya go Tigertime evidence of evolution at work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

What do you reckon this thing lived on in the Garden of Eden, or Noahs Ark?

Creationists actually accept this kind of evolution!

 

[evo]

Creationists actually accept this kind of evolution!

It must be nice to be able to pick an chose what science to believe in and what aspects too reject on the strength of one 2000 year old book

 

[Djevv]

Step 1 : Forget about the phrase "survival of the fittest"

Step 2 Luke 4: 23 "Physician heal thyself "

Wow, brilliant, I'll have to try that one out in class! ;D

 

[evo]

Wow, brilliant, I'll have to try that one out in class! ;D

I shudder to think what those poor bastards are learning from you.

 

[tigertime2]

BTW I don't think it's patience, but a little bit of madness, a little bit of typical male Asperger's and a whole lot of:

;D ;D

Yes and you can tell he is an evolutionist - he does not have any eyes (to see God's creation) ears (to hear God's creation) or nose.......................

 

[tigertime2]

A mom and dad were worried about their son not wanting to learn math at the school he was in, so they decided to send him to a Catholic school. After the first day of school, their son comes racing into the house, goes straight into his room and slams the door shut. Mom and dad are a little worried about this and go to his room to see if he is okay. They find him sitting at his desk doing his homework. The boy keeps doing that for the rest of the year. At the end of the year the son brings home his report card and gives it to his mom and dad. Looking at it they see under math an A+.
Mom and dad are very happy and ask the son, "What changed your mind about learning math?"

The son looked at mom and dad and said, "Well, on the first day when I walked into the classroom, I saw a guy nailed to the plus sign at the back of the room behind the teacher's desk and I knew they meant business."

 

[tigertime2]

The child comes home from his first day at school.
Mother asks, "What did you learn today?"
The kid replies, "Not enough. I have to go back tomorrow."

 

[tigertime2]

Teacher: "Sam, what is the outside of a tree called?"
Sam: "I don’t know."
Teacher: "Bark, Sam, bark."
Sam: "Bow, wow, wow!"

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

But each mutation needs to be fixed in the population as a whole to become part of the genetic makeup of the species. So I would have thought the mutation affects the individual, and since it is beneficial, becomes part of the genome. So this is roughly 520 beneficial mutations to individuals per generation. Still a lot. Do we know how large the original populations were?

Incorrect. There are plenty of differences between you and me at the genetic level, however they all are characteristic of the human genome. Not everyone has to carry the same mutations for them to be considered human....really only one individual has to carry the mutation. This is where analysis of allelic frequency comes into the picture. You can only get a snapshot at a particular moment. The ultimate fate of those alleles and whether they become fixed in the population, or lost, has a lot to do with their impact (natural selection) and on local population sizes and chance events (genetic drift). So those 520 mutations wouldn't necessarily have to be beneficial, they could certainly be neutral (as many are, considering the amount of junk in our genomes).

How much in % terms of a whole species Genome could two individuals possess? Would the model be possible given more time?

Do you mean how much variation? Only a small fraction of the variation that we observe today.

A lot more time would be required and you would still have to explain all of the fossils of extinct hominid species that we are clearly related to.

It is one thing to look at one part of the picture and try to explain it in the context of 'special creation' but when you look at all the evidence as a whole, the conclusion is clear.

Like I have said in the past I have not come to any fixed conclusions about these things and am just asking questions that interest me.

I understand that, hence my willingness to answer your questions and point out where I see errors in your conclusions.

Surely an allele must be of some advantage to become part of the genome of a species, except if it is a short lived non-beneficial mutation. But overall good answer, thanks.

No it does not. The human genome has plenty of deleterious mutations that, as you point out will probably only stick around for a short time. However selection of these mutations by human breeders will allow them to persist. My head shattering in wheat is a good example of this....such a mutation would be lost rapidly in the wild, but when humans intervene to manually scatter these grains they can persist in the new domesticated species (this is part of the domestication process).

 

[tigertime2]

Teacher: Milton, how can you prove the earth is round?
Milton: I can't. Besides, I never said it was.

 

[tigertime2]

The science teacher lecturing his class in biology said, "Now I'll show you this frog in my pocket." He then reached into his pocket and pulled out a chicken sandwich. He looked puzzled for a second, thought deeply, and said, "That's funny. I distinctly remember eating my lunch."

 

[tigertime2]

Let me guess Pantheras your a biology or science teacher?

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Let me guess Pantheras your a biology or science teacher?

Close.

 

[tigertime2]

Creationists actually accept this kind of evolution!

Exactly!!! we do not say that everything remains the same, actually we accept change as a part of God's creation

 

[tigertime2]

Close.

Professor?

 

[tigertime2]

Incorrect. There are plenty of differences between you and me at the genetic level, however they all are characteristic of the human genome. Not everyone has to carry the same mutations for them to be considered human....really only one individual has to carry the mutation. This is where analysis of allelic frequency comes into the picture. You can only get a snapshot at a particular moment. The ultimate fate of those alleles and whether they become fixed in the population, or lost, has a lot to do with their impact (natural selection) and on local population sizes and chance events (genetic drift). So those 520 mutations wouldn't necessarily have to be beneficial, they could certainly be neutral (as many are, considering the amount of junk in our genomes).

Do you mean how much variation? Only a small fraction of the variation that we observe today.

A lot more time would be required and you would still have to explain all of the fossils of extinct hominid species that we are clearly related to.

It is one thing to look at one part of the picture and try to explain it in the context of 'special creation' but when you look at all the evidence as a whole, the conclusion is clear.

I understand that, hence my willingness to answer your questions and point out where I see errors in your conclusions.

No it does not. The human genome has plenty of deleterious mutations that, as you point out will probably only stick around for a short time. However selection of these mutations by human breeders will allow them to persist. My head shattering in wheat is a good example of this....such a mutation would be lost rapidly in the wild, but when humans intervene to manually scatter these grains they can persist in the new domesticated species (this is part of the domestication process).

You could also argue that an architect uses the same base materials for many projects, so a creator would obviously use similar materials to put living creatures together.

 

[Djevv]

I shudder to think what those poor bastards are learning from you.

Certainly not Evo- lution! ;D