Atheism

[tigertime2]

Oh great, does that mean we'll be worried about who will replace Greg Miller - except magnified so he'll be 10 metres tall - for all eternity?

God has a lot to answer for if you ask me.

Antman, why are you angry at God?

 

[Tiger74]

Slavery still goes on today.

The OT should be taken in context not out of context.

This is what pisses me off though. You bring up that the OT is good and wonderful because its better than medicine because one passage said clean your hands. Yet whole pages on dividing up slaves as benefits, God giving the go ahead to the Jews to cause genocide when they reclaim Israel/Judea, well thats about context.

 

[tigertime2]

My quote was specifically about humans and chimpanzees, to be accurate. As for horses and bats, of course they share a common ancestor, just not as recently as humans and chimpanzees. They are both mammals, so their common ancestor was around far more recently than say the common ancestor of horses and crocodiles, which was around more recently than the common ancestor of horses and petunias! Molecular evidence has provided complete support for evolutionary theories and provided an amazing insight into the mechanisms of evolution. Organisms that were classified as closely related, based on morphological and/or developmental observations have been shown to group together based on molecular sequences - as predicted by evolutionary theory. You also failed to address those non-functional, parasitic sequences that we share.

Actually, your 60 million base estimate is low, there are generally quite a few more than that between humans and chimpanzees (however in many cases those important sequences you referred to in an earlier post - the protein encoding genes - can be identical!). Of course those can change over 4.54 million years! If you double your estimate to 120 million bases that is still only about 26 mutations per year. How many generations is that? How big are the two populations (humans and chimpanzees)? How often do mutations occur in these species' germlines? More than ample time to generate that sort of diversity.

In your young earth model where it all started with 2 individuals (Adam and Eve) about what, 8000 years ago? How can all humans differ by at least 0.2% (~6,400,000bp)? That is about 8000 mutations per year in the population. That is far less time and a far smaller population than what you doubted in the human/chimp scenario. Don't try a 'goddidit' clause on this one either, because we can see the genetic differences from generation to generation and we don't see anything like this sort of mutation rate in humans.

Yes but it does not prove evolution either.

 

[evo]

;D

Deep breaths Pantera,deep breaths.

 

[tigertime2]

This is what p!sses me off though. You bring up that the OT is good and wonderful because its better than medicine because one passage said clean your hands. Yet whole pages on dividing up slaves as benefits, God giving the go ahead to the Jews to cause genocide when they reclaim Israel/Judea, well thats about context.

Though shall have no other Gods - God clearly demonstrates in the OT that he is a jealous God and he uses the OT to warn us of the dangers of being disobedient to him. Eternity in Hell is not where God wants us to be so he warns us what are the cause and effect of not following him.

The same as collingwood albeit on a much less scale, suspending the three players and using that as a deterent to others to do the right thing.

God new that our hearts are hardened towards him and he is using dramatic illistration to get his point accross. Do not disobey God or punishment will follow.

 

[Djevv]

Actually, your 60 million base estimate is low, there are generally quite a few more than that between humans and chimpanzees (however in many cases those important sequences you referred to in an earlier post - the protein encoding genes - can be identical!). Of course those can change over 4.54 million years! If you double your estimate to 120 million bases that is still only about 26 mutations per year. How many generations is that? How big are the two populations (humans and chimpanzees)? How often do mutations occur in these species' germlines? More than ample time to generate that sort of diversity.

In a human generation, lets say 20 years, that is 520 base pairs mutations per generation (added into the entire gene pool), which seems like a lot to me. Either there is a masses of change happening very quickly, in spurts, or a lot of change is happening from generation to generation.

In your young earth model where it all started with 2 individuals (Adam and Eve) about what, 8000 years ago? How can all humans differ by at least 0.2% (~6,400,000bp)? That is about 8000 mutations per year in the population. That is far less time and a far smaller population than what you doubted in the human/chimp scenario. Don't try a 'goddidit' clause on this one either, because we can see the genetic differences from generation to generation and we don't see anything like this sort of mutation rate in humans.

I guess if humans were specially created in some way, then I expect variation would have been built into their genome in some way to enable survival in different climates, perhaps added to by mutation as well. Is this possible?

Another thing I was pondering last night is the genetic diversity of dogs. If dogs were originally bred from wolves where did all the genetic diversity arise from given that anything that is in the genome of a species must be there by selective advantage. I find it difficult to see how the genetic inheritance of say the Shi Tzu breed could have been of selective advantage to the wolf.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

The bacterium found on the Pharohs are essentially the same as we have today. Pathogens and bacteria multiply themselves millions of times in a short period of time how come the "Evolution" effect does not happen faster and they are essentially the same?

Many bacteria are well adapted to their particular environmental niche...hence there is no evolutionary imperative to change, so they don't.

Change the environment and they do evolve and rapidly at that (see antibiotic resistance). This has also been demonstrated under controlled laboratory conditions by Richard Lenski's group (summary on Wikipedia with links to the original scientific papers).

 

[evo]

Here ya go Tigertime evidence of evolution at work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon-eating_bacteria

What do you reckon this thing lived on in the Garden of Eden, or Noahs Ark?

 

[Djevv]

This is what p!sses me off though. You bring up that the OT is good and wonderful because its better than medicine because one passage said clean your hands. Yet whole pages on dividing up slaves as benefits, God giving the go ahead to the Jews to cause genocide when they reclaim Israel/Judea, well thats about context.

T74, are you really being fair-minded (I consider you a fair minded person in general) here? Have you read the OT? Have you studied the OT? When you do you need to realise in OT times things were utterly different to the way they are now, not just technologically but culturally. Misunderstand the culture and you will often completely misunderstand a passage. There a lots of examples of where archaeological findings have shed light on a particularly strange passage.

Another point that is worth making is that God doesn't necessarily approve of all that goes on in the Bible! History is recorded in a very honest fashion so that we may draw lessons from it, and not make the same mistakes. Do you realise that Israel's greatest king, David, 'a man after God's own heart', was an adulterer and a murderer?

One more thing I believe is reasonable is that God approaches people where they are 'at', and that includes nations. The rules for ancient Israel were wholly appropriate for their time and in their socio-cultural context. Does God expect us to live according to them today? Nope, there are 'new' rules - the New Testament.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Well you call it a common ancestor and I call it a common creator.

Where is the Molecular evidence that you mention?

Yes, but there is evidence to support the existence of common ancestors through similarities in molecular sequences, morphology, embryology, vestigial organs, fossil record etc.

Remind me of the evidence of your creator? Oh, a gut feel eh?

I know which one I will choose to believe.

As for the evidence, check out any scientific paper that discusses DNA sequences in more than one species....it will agree with the fact of common descent. If you don't believe their conclusions, the DNA sequences (all 130 billion bases as of 2006) are publicly available....take a look for yourself.

Unlike many creationist claims, I don't have to take the word of any scientist or blindly believe any assertion. I can look at the evidence myself and if I disagree with the conclusions, I can publish those objections. However, the objections have to be a bit stronger than an argument from incredulity.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Yes but it does not prove evolution either.

Goalposts ---> shifted.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

In a human generation, lets say 20 years, that is 520 base pairs mutations per generation (added into the entire gene pool), which seems like a lot to me. Either there is a masses of change happening very quickly, in spurts, or a lot of change is happening from generation to generation.

You are disregarding population size in your estimates. In one individual, yes, 520 base pair mutations is ridiculous...but we aren't talking about a single individual but large populations (that would have had some level of sequence diversity at the speciation event to begin with). When you look at it that way, that is not a great deal of change over the timescale, given the population.

I guess if humans were specially created in some way, then I expect variation would have been built into their genome in some way to enable survival in different climates, perhaps added to by mutation as well. Is this possible?

But if God created Adam and Eve and then let 'nature takes its course' you would need to come up with something far greater than the 520 bp per generation per individual figure that we were talking about above. How can you be incredulous about one explanation and posit a less likely scenario as an explanation for your model?

Variation only enters a population through germ line mutations that are inherited and either are lost or become fixed. How would your God have achieved this? why doesn't he continue to do it? Why would he introduce the variations that lead to devastating genetic disease? Why do the mental gymnastics to explain this? The more likely scenario is already available. This would be an example of disregarding the obvious explanation to fit your preconceived conclusion (ie special creation)....where is Occam's Razor now?

Another thing I was pondering last night is the genetic diversity of dogs. If dogs were originally bred from wolves where did all the genetic diversity arise from given that anything that is in the genome of a species must be there by selective advantage. I find it difficult to see how the genetic inheritance of say the Shi Tzu breed could have been of selective advantage to the wolf.

First off....only the most extreme adaptationist would claim that everything in a genome is there for its selective advantage. There are variations in genomes that are there through chance mutation...genetic drift explains this type of variation. Selective breeding by humans has done just that...selected variations in the wolf population that were desirable for the breeders. Over time and through constantly selecting for these variants, even if the mutations underlying them were rare, the impressive morphological differences will start to show. This has occurred in all domestic species (check out the wild version of corn, teosinte...massive difference). The traits of the Shi Tzu, would probably have been a disadvantage for the wolf, however they were an advantage for the Shi Tzu, because of its breeders. Again, this is very common in domesticated plants and animals (what about the loss of head shattering in wheat for seed dispersal...that is certainly not helpful to the plant, but excellent for the farmer and one of the key mutations in the domestication of wheat ~8,500 years ago).

 

[evo]

The traits of the Shi Tzu, would probably have been a disadvantage for the wolf, however they were an advantage for the Shi Tzu, because of its breeders. Again, this is very common in domesticated plants and animals (what about the loss of head shattering in wheat for seed dispersal...that is certainly not helpful to the plant, but excellent for the farmer and one of the key mutations in the domestication of wheat ~8,500 years ago).

What I don't understand is why this has to explained to a science teacher(of all people).It's freakin' self evident to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of evolution.

I admire your patience to respond to this nonsense, dude.Maybe you should be a teacher.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

What I don't understand is why this has to explained to a science teacher(of all people).It's freakin' self evident to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of evolution.

I admire your patience to respond to this nonsense, dude.Maybe you should be a teacher.

Maybe I should

 

[Djevv]

What I don't understand is why this has to explained to a science teacher(of all people).It's freakin' self evident to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of evolution.

I admire your patience to respond to this nonsense, dude.Maybe you should be a teacher.

Well go on, answer the question!

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

Well go on, answer the question!

First off....only the most extreme adaptationist would claim that everything in a genome is there for its selective advantage. There are variations in genomes that are there through chance mutation...genetic drift explains this type of variation. Selective breeding by humans has done just that...selected variations in the wolf population that were desirable for the breeders. Over time and through constantly selecting for these variants, even if the mutations underlying them were rare, the impressive morphological differences will start to show. This has occurred in all domestic species (check out the wild version of corn, teosinte...massive difference). The traits of the Shi Tzu, would probably have been a disadvantage for the wolf, however they were an advantage for the Shi Tzu, because of its breeders. Again, this is very common in domesticated plants and animals (what about the loss of head shattering in wheat for seed dispersal...that is certainly not helpful to the plant, but excellent for the farmer and one of the key mutations in the domestication of wheat ~8,500 years ago).

 

[AngryAnt]

Antman, why are you angry at God?

I think you are reading my posts a little too literally TT2.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

What I don't understand is why this has to explained to a science teacher(of all people).It's freakin' self evident to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of evolution.

I admire your patience to respond to this nonsense, dude.Maybe you should be a teacher.

BTW I don't think it's patience, but a little bit of madness, a little bit of typical male Asperger's and a whole lot of:

;D ;D

 

[AngryAnt]

One more thing I believe is reasonable is that God approaches people where they are 'at', and that includes nations. The rules for ancient Israel were wholly appropriate for their time and in their socio-cultural context. Does God expect us to live according to them today? Nope, there are 'new' rules - the New Testament.

When's Volume 3 coming out? As I think the NT is showing a few signs of being "out of context" for today as well.

Bit concerned though that this might entail the Second Coming and then the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse etc etc. If you are expecting this soon Djevv and tt2 let me so I can take the long service leave owing to me before then.

 

[evo]

hehe.Yeah it's a great cartoon that.