Are There Too Many Risks Associated with Drafting Indigenous Footballers?

[the claw]

The question is racist. There are matters within the broader issue (refer to my previous post) that are very worthy of discussion but this thread might as well be titled - are young aboriginal men worth bothering with.

I would ask the moderator to delete this thread and start a topic which discusses this issue respectfully.

no its not. people are just being precious. anyway why ban the thread when a change of title would do to appease all the do gooders.

it seems we can defend them because of their backgrounds but we cant say their backgrounds are a problem and a potential reason not to draft. there is a postive and a negative but it seems we cant look at the negative because of the colour of their skin.

and here are the do gooders painting us as a progressive enlightened mature nation, yet they show just how immature they are when they cant discuss the cons as well as the pros and label it racist. to have an opinion that may not paint a good light on our indiginous brothers is not allowd weather it be right or wrong what has happened to freedom of speech and thought i think that a bigger issue.

as far as i can gather you cant talk about race in a way that will incite violence you are entitled to your opinion even if some dont like it and label it racist because they dont agree.

ive already had one post deleted on this on one of the taylor threads im tempted im tempted to rehash what i said but the thought police will have my head in a noose. all i will say is those comments were very relevant to this thread.

finally on the title and in answer to it.
a most definate yes. after you weigh up all the risks just like you do for all footballers not just blacks.

im treading a fine line here with the mods i think it time i went away for awhile but will leave with a parting shot for all wowsers everywhere i hope you enjoy stuffing up our great country you will reap what you sow. long live our ability to say what we mean.

 

[FitenFitenWin]

no its not. people are just being precious. anyway why ban the thread when a change of title would do to appease all the do gooders.

it seems we can defend them because of their backgrounds but we cant say their backgrounds are a problem and a potential reason not to draft. there is a postive and a negative but it seems we cant look at the negative because of the colour of their skin.

and here are the do gooders painting us as a progressive enlightened mature nation, yet they show just how immature they are when they cant discuss the cons as well as the pros and label it racist. to have an opinion that may not paint a good light on our indiginous brothers is not allowd weather it be right or wrong what has happened to freedom of speech and thought i think that a bigger issue.

as far as i can gather you cant talk about race in a way that will incite violence you are entitled to your opinion even if some dont like it and label it racist because they dont agree.

ive already had one post deleted on this on one of the taylor threads im tempted im tempted to rehash what i said but the thought police will have my head in a noose. all i will say is those comments were very relevant to this thread.

finally on the title and in answer to it.
a most definate yes. after you weigh up all the risks just like you do for all footballers not just blacks.

im treading a fine line here with the mods i think it time i went away for awhile but will leave with a parting shot for all wowsers everywhere i hope you enjoy stuffing up our great country you will reap what you sow. long live our ability to say what we mean.

While you're away I suggest that you sit alone in a room with Adam Goodes and ask him "Is it worth recruiting any of you aboriginal blokes?".

Hope you've got health insurance.

 

[lamb22]

Are anglos worth recruiting. Other than a few examples cant think of anyone who isn't a thug (eg barry hall as my conclusive example and stereo type). The rest are all are all soft ( eg macmahon, houlihan and Pettifer as my conclusive examples and sterotypes) love the booze ( a given pre 1990) or drugs ( Benny) or glass their women (Carey).

Are they more trouble than they are worth?

 

[hopper]

Hmm, a dangerous thread but we should never shy away from the tough questions.

Indigenous Australians make up 3% of our population, however 8% of AFL footballers are Indigenous. When you factor in the extreme disadvantage that many of these guys are born into, this is a remarkable achievement. And to me - it answers the title of this thread entirely.

Let's celebrate this achievement and look for ways outside of footy for young Indigenous people to inspire and better our community.

 

[The_General]

I think the question should be asked, should we recruit footballers who have poor behavioural records. Troy happens to have a history and he happens to be indigenous. Just because he is indigenous, doesn't mean we should blanket ban recruiting of indigenous players. The question in the post is DISGUSTING, it is RACIST.

As others have said, Fevola, Hall, Cousins just to name a few are players with bad history, who all have behaved poorly off the field. None of those players are indigenous, but all could help our club on the field. Are they worth recruiting?

 

[MB78]

Hmm, a dangerous thread but we should never shy away from the tough questions.

Indigenous Australians make up 3% of our population, however 8% of AFL footballers are Indigenous. When you factor in the extreme disadvantage that many of these guys are born into, this is a remarkable achievement. And to me - it answers the title of this thread entirely.

Let's celebrate this achievement and look for ways outside of footy for young Indigenous people to inspire and better our community.

I agree.

 

[Brodders17]

what suburban team was lucky enough to pick up michael hurley after the dons punted him for kicking the taxi driver when he was out drunk? an apparently innocent taxi driver who just wanted his fare.

 

[Rosy]

Whoa what a bun fight.  

Can anyone come up with a heading that will make the thread more acceptable?  Is it racist to discuss Indigenous footballers or is that reasonable depending on the actual responses.  

Moderating on here has felt  a bit like being in a  blender recently.  So many different requests and opinions on what's acceptable or not.  As claw alluded to some racist posts have been deleted, and if he can't back up his bigoted and racist comments as he said he would, and if he keeps on having a dig at the Mods, and if he can't abide by their requests in  regard to the posting guidelines then it's a good thing he's decided to go away.  The ice is so thin he mightn't have much choice soon.

I tend to agree with hopper.  I don't think the topic should be taboo but we'll see how it goes then make a decision on it's future

Edit- Everybody is welcome to contact the mods privately if they have any concerns and suggestions either way about this thread.

 

[Disco08]

I don't see the need to remove this thread. The discussion is topical given recent events, even if some of the assumptions being made do appear prejudiced. Surely we can discuss this without offending anybody.

That said, gdog, you are way off the mark. Currently 10% of the AFL's players are of indigenous heritage. That's 70 or 80 players. Over the course of AFL/VFL history that number is well into the hundreds. How many of thse guys have shown behavioural issues?

 

[TigerForce]

Can anyone come up with a heading that will make the thread more acceptable?

Are 'troublesome' Indigenous Footballers worth recruiting ?

 

[lamb22]

i know they are extremely talented but are aboriginals worth recruiting given the problems they seem to encounter and the kid gloves they need to be handled with. Cant think of too many aboriginal players who have carved out long trouble free careers with exception of few eg wangnaneen long. They eventually all get homesick or into trouble eg betts lovett taylor hooper sampi cox etc

Rosy I am all for free speech, even racist free speech.

I think Hoppers comments best reflect my views and we shouldn't shy away form difficult subjects.

However the opening post quoted above is clearly racist. It makes assumptions which are sterotypes and not universally true and include some straight out mistruths:

Namely:

"they are extremely talented",
"the kid gloves they need to be handled with"
"Cant think of too many aboriginal players who have carved out long trouble free careers"
" They eventually all get homesick or into trouble"

I dont think anyone likes being ascribed personal traits (even flattering ones) on the basis of the class, race sex, creed to which that person may belong.

My problem with the post is more that it is wrong and misinformed rather than racist for as Hopper points out because of the overrepresentation in percentage terms of indigenous players in AFL ranks recruiters obviously think they are worth recruiting (at the expense of other races and creeds) who statistically appear less worthy of recruiting.

 

[lamb22]

Are 'troublesome' Indigenous Footballers worth recruiting ?

Edited.

 

[TigerForce]

Edited.

Only if it's not meant to be specific on indigenous players.

 

[agincourt]

The reality is that aborigines are massively over represented in crime figures and detention statistics.

This is not racist, this is the reality!

We can sit here all day and argue the ins and outs and why this is true, but it doesn't change the fact that it is true.

So given that yet another indigenous player is now in trouble with the law (following in the footsteps of Murphy, Farmer, Krakouers, Lovett-Murray, Betts, Proud etc) I think it is reasonable to ask if players of Aboriginal descent are also over represented within the AFL for the same issues.

Why is it OK to pick an indigenous player because we accept they have special talents they bring to the game, but it's not OK to ask if we should NOT pick an indigenous player based on the less desirable things they MAY bring to the game?

That is racist!

 

[Tigerhart04]

Would we be all jumping up and down if the thread was titled
"Are Irish footballers worth recruiting?"

I think premiersthisyear had it right. It's not racist to ask questions of a particular race. It is not racist to question Troy Taylor's actions in the other thread, we've had the same questions regarding Houlihan, Betts, the mighty Fev, our own *smile*, Johnson etc
However it would definitely be racist to suggest that the aboriginal people all behave questionably, that is utter garbage.

The topic is valid and as Disco noted statistically, 10% of the footballers on AFL lists are aboriginal, and when you compare that with aboriginals making up just 3% of our entire population, 10% is an outstanding success. Worth every red penny IMO.

Sorry gdog, right question, wrong basis.

 

[lamb22]

So given that yet another indigenous player is now in trouble with the law (following in the footsteps of Murphy, Farmer, Krakouers, Lovett-Murray, Betts, Proud etc) I think it is reasonable to ask if players of Aboriginal descent are also over represented within the AFL for the same issues.

Please explain!

 

[agincourt]

Please explain!

JEFF Farmer has been charged numerous times.....

From Wikipedia - In November 2004, Farmer pleaded guilty to assaulting his long-time girlfriend and was fined $2,000.[7]

In December 2006 he was alleged to have been involved in a nightclub fight in which a Subiaco Football Club player, Greg Broughton, suffered a broken eye socket.[7] No charges were laid.

Farmer was arrested in April 2007 and charged with assault for knocking out a security guard at a Perth nightclub after being refused entry. The Fremantle Football Club fined him $5,100 and suspended him for a further 6 weeks on top of his existing AFL enforced suspension for eye gouging another player during a pre-season game, which was his 10th suspension and his 14th appearance before the tribunal. In court, Farmer pleaded guilty to assault and was fined $3,000.[8] [9][10][11]

After serving his full suspension, Farmer returned to the Fremantle side on 30 June in the round 13 game against Carlton at Subiaco Oval. Farmer together with Des Headland, who was himself implicated in another nightclub fight during the week,[12] were amongst the best players on the field and led the way to a 77 point thrashing. This was Fremantle's second highest ever score and their greatest winning margin ever against Carlton.[13][14] Headland kicked 5 goals and Farmer kicked 4 goals and each set up many more for their teammates.[15]

In July 2007, police charged Farmer with criminal damage after he smashed a car's side mirror in a rage after being ejected from Burswood Casino.[16] In court he pleaded guilty to the charge and was fined $750 (with $400 compensation and $58 costs).[17] Despite the previous conviction which was considered his last chance at the club,[18] Fremantle did not suspend him, but fined him $10,000 (the maximum allowed under the AFLPA rules) and requested he donate $20,000 to charity.[19] He was recalled to play for Fremantle the following week against league leaders Geelong.[20]

On 18 August 2007, in the third quarter of a match against St Kilda at Telstra Dome, Farmer received facial injuries from a behind the play incident and was assisted from the playing area, bleeding and suffering a concussion. The incident was not witnessed by umpires, nor by any of the TV broadcast cameras.[21] Network Ten commentator Michael Voss stated soon afterwards that he saw what happened and added that St Kilda tagger Steven Baker would be hoping it had not been captured by TV cameras.[22] Farmer took no further part in the match, which St Kilda won by 30 points. Baker was later handed a 7 game suspension by the AFL tribunal, after being charged with rough conduct on Farmer. St Kilda appealed the decision, and included a letter from Farmer to the AFL pleading for leniency on Baker, describing Baker as one of his most respected opponents. The letter could not be accepted in the appeal, because it was new evidence. The appeal was rejected and the suspension remained.[23]

On 25 June 2008 it was announced that Farmer was suspended for a week by the Fremantle Football Club for not attending a compulsory recovery session after the weekend's loss to St Kilda in Melbourne.[24]

Farmer retired at the conclusion of the 2008 AFL season.[25]


Lovett-Murray has been charged with drug possession (charge dropped) unlicensed driving, and just recently has faced allegations of sexual assault.

 

[lamb22]

So given that yet another indigenous player is now in trouble with the law (following in the footsteps of Murphy, Farmer, Krakouers, Lovett-Murray, Betts, Proud etc) I think it is reasonable to ask if players of Aboriginal descent are also over represented within the AFL for the same issues.

Well lets look at Collingwood's recent off field history, Cloke and Pendlebury (anglos) involved in fights (albeit not as successfully as Troy apparently). Didak (croatian) shooting the breeze with Hudson (anglo muderer) while he himself was shooting at warehouses and cop cars. Dane Swan (anglo) assaulting innocent bystanders in Fed square. Heath Shaw drinking drivng and crashing vehicles with an invisible Didak inside and then lying to the world about it.

Indigenous players don't seem to be overrepresented in "trouble with the law" issues at the mudpies!

Might be more reasonable to ask if Collinwood should stop recruiting Clokes and Shaws or Anglos and Croatians more generally. It appears an absurd suggestion but apparently if you replace 'anglo' with 'indigenous' it becomes less absurd?

 

[Rosy]

My answer to the thread question is definitely yes. Similar to drafting any player it should be considered on individual merit and how the player can benefit our team structure and performance.

Edit--- Topic heading has changed so the above post no longer applies. My answer to the current question 'Are There Too Many Risks Associated with Drafting Indigenous Footballers?' is No

 

[Streak]

JEFF Farmer has been charged numerous times.....

From Wikipedia - In November 2004, Farmer pleaded guilty to assaulting his long-time girlfriend and was fined $2,000.[7]

In December 2006 he was alleged to have been involved in a nightclub fight in which a Subiaco Football Club player, Greg Broughton, suffered a broken eye socket.[7] No charges were laid.

Farmer was arrested in April 2007 and charged with assault for knocking out a security guard at a Perth nightclub after being refused entry. The Fremantle Football Club fined him $5,100 and suspended him for a further 6 weeks on top of his existing AFL enforced suspension for eye gouging another player during a pre-season game, which was his 10th suspension and his 14th appearance before the tribunal. In court, Farmer pleaded guilty to assault and was fined $3,000.[8] [9][10][11]

After serving his full suspension, Farmer returned to the Fremantle side on 30 June in the round 13 game against Carlton at Subiaco Oval. Farmer together with Des Headland, who was himself implicated in another nightclub fight during the week,[12] were amongst the best players on the field and led the way to a 77 point thrashing. This was Fremantle's second highest ever score and their greatest winning margin ever against Carlton.[13][14] Headland kicked 5 goals and Farmer kicked 4 goals and each set up many more for their teammates.[15]

In July 2007, police charged Farmer with criminal damage after he smashed a car's side mirror in a rage after being ejected from Burswood Casino.[16] In court he pleaded guilty to the charge and was fined $750 (with $400 compensation and $58 costs).[17] Despite the previous conviction which was considered his last chance at the club,[18] Fremantle did not suspend him, but fined him $10,000 (the maximum allowed under the AFLPA rules) and requested he donate $20,000 to charity.[19] He was recalled to play for Fremantle the following week against league leaders Geelong.[20]

On 18 August 2007, in the third quarter of a match against St Kilda at Telstra Dome, Farmer received facial injuries from a behind the play incident and was assisted from the playing area, bleeding and suffering a concussion. The incident was not witnessed by umpires, nor by any of the TV broadcast cameras.[21] Network Ten commentator Michael Voss stated soon afterwards that he saw what happened and added that St Kilda tagger Steven Baker would be hoping it had not been captured by TV cameras.[22] Farmer took no further part in the match, which St Kilda won by 30 points. Baker was later handed a 7 game suspension by the AFL tribunal, after being charged with rough conduct on Farmer. St Kilda appealed the decision, and included a letter from Farmer to the AFL pleading for leniency on Baker, describing Baker as one of his most respected opponents. The letter could not be accepted in the appeal, because it was new evidence. The appeal was rejected and the suspension remained.[23]

On 25 June 2008 it was announced that Farmer was suspended for a week by the Fremantle Football Club for not attending a compulsory recovery session after the weekend's loss to St Kilda in Melbourne.[24]

Farmer retired at the conclusion of the 2008 AFL season.[25]


Lovett-Murray has been charged with drug possession (charge dropped) unlicensed driving, and just recently has faced allegations of sexual assault.

Maybe he thought you meant Polly Farmer?