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911 Truth Movement

Do you think the US government should hold an independent investigation into the events surrounding


  • Total voters
    63
That's not at all the way I meant it. The fact is not many truthers at all believe those theories yet you insist many truthers have a loose grip on reality. Hence the question.

If you're only insisting that those types are nutcases does that mean you can see the merit in the arguments being put forward by the rest of the truth movement?

I hate the way you accuse me of co-opting firefighters and victim's families. That's again not my intention and only a complete *smile* would do anything like that. Is that what you're calling me now?

But yep - some of you love to point and laugh at the points which are obviously pretty far fetched as though they're a win for your side. The sad thing is you completely ignore the important stuff most of the time.
 
Well I don't understand why you feel the need to mention the victims families every few pages if you aren't using them as a rhetorical device. What is the relevence of them other than a small number of them want a second inquiry?

None of the conspiracy theory skeptics ITT ever mention victim's families. It's not like every fire fighter and victims family are on board this whole 911 truth movement. In fact I'd guess for every fire fighter that believes 9/11 wa a cionspiracy to demolish building via demolition nine others believe it was bought down by terrorists in planes.

Furthermore I bet many victims families want to put all this unpleasantness in the past.

Can't we leave themn out of this? It has no relevence to wether remote control planes is/or isn't a palusible alternative scenario.
 
I don't mention them every few pages. You made the statement that "most truthers have a loose grip on reality". The truth movement is basically comprised of the victims/firefighters/officials/experts/scholars who want a second inquiry. The vast majority of support is for these people - not holograms and anti gravity balls. All I did was ask you to clarify that statement.

As for your the firefighters and victims families not wanting a new inquiry and believing the official narrative - how do you arrive at these guesses? Do you understand the major grievances people closest to these events have with the CR? Are there any groups of these people uniting in support of the government and its narrative?

Disco08 said:
If you're only insisting that those types are nutcases does that mean you can see the merit in the arguments being put forward by the rest of the truth movement?
 
Disco08 said:
This little bit of propoganda is laughable:

The most arguably credible criticism of Clarke has been based upon the fact that the 9/11 terrorists gathered within United States borders and went undetected by National Security organizations.

Dont follow.
 
Sorry - the 9/11 terrorists were well and truly detected within the US long before 9/11.

So really Wiki (which is basically a mouthpiece for the US government given it's obliged to present the OR as factual history) admits there is no credible criticism of Clarke.
 
Disco08 said:
Sorry - the 9/11 terrorists were well and truly detected within the US long before 9/11.

So really Wiki (which is basically a mouthpiece for the US government given it's obliged to present the OR as factual history) admits there is no credible criticism of Clarke.
so now Wiki is wrong because it's a mouthpiece for the US government...because it doesnt promote your opinion! (but on this occassion it's right....????)

But many of the theorists websites are right...because it does promote your opinion?
 
It's wrong on this occassion too. Many of the 9/11 terrorists were certainly detected contrary to what Wiki says.

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&complete_911_timeline_key_events=complete_911_timeline_key_hijacker_events

Not all theorist sites are right either. In fact most of them are probably wrong to some degree and many of them would be completely wrong. There are a few good ones though. The complete timeline is a very good one in that it references mainstream media reports only. No opinion - only reported facts.
 
Disco08 said:
Where? I've gone back through your posts and can't find anything like that. All I'm asking is for you guys to spell out what you believe best explains the events surrounding 9/11. How did the US miss so many warnings? Why did the Bush adminisitration go to such lengths to destroy and suppress so much vital evidence?

I outlined my own view, which is not rocket science and echoes Chomsky's and aligns with heaps of political theories. I remember I said it was 'power politics 101'. Basically, the Hijackers were well prepared shoestring budget fanatics who exploited lax security and a complacent regime, got a dream run. Then the US freaked out, panicked. The attack exposed the most powerful empire ever as vulnerable. US powers, knowing this, proceeded to operate on a need to know basis, they didn't want to expose or admit to any inadequacies or vulnerabilities. They were never going to cooperate fully, or much at all, with any inquiry, to think they would or should is naive in the extreme.

As for the US failing to react adequately to warning signs, Noam Chomski nails it with his analysis, but its partly explained above.

That was what I posted earlier and sums up my views, stance, theory, analysis whatever you want to call it.
 
Noam doesn't adress the evidence of very specific warnings and the actions which seem to indicate people were aware of what was happening.

I'll leave the rest alone. There's any number of holes in that explanation but I really don't see any point in trying to discuss them again.
 
Disco08 said:
Noam doesn't adress the evidence of very specific warnings and the actions which seem to indicate people were aware of what was happening.

I'll leave the rest alone. There's any number of holes in that explanation but I really don't see any point in trying to discuss them again.

Chomsky's analysis addresses that. The crux of his analysis explains it directly.

I think we might have hit on why there is no way we can ever agree or why we are continuously at crossed purposes. I don't think you quite grasp how theory relates to real events.

My short theory above doesn't directly address every single conspiracy theory assertion, but it explains why the attacks happened, how they happened, and why the response happened.

The theory of evolution is a theory. It doesn't directly explain the existence of the venus fly trap. Just like my theory doesn't directly address Harvey's insurance policy. But you can apply the theory of evolution to the venus fly trap and its environment to come up with an explanation.
 
I'm well aware of the reasons you believe Chomsky's theory explains these points. As I said there are many holes in such an explanation IMO.

Here's an external analysis of Chomsy's stance if you're interested. Sadly the video of him admitting the plausibility of the Bush administration having warning of the impending attacks and letting them happen on purpose has been removed from youtube. That's not unusual for 9/11 videos though.

http://www.corbettreport.com/articles/20091105_chomsky_confronted.htm

Also comparing his opinion to the TTOE is a huge stretch. TTOE was researched thoroughly and tested over and over. Noam doesn't even seem to have a very good grasp on many of the crucial facts surrounding 9/11.
 
tigersnake said:
The theory of evolution is a theory. It doesn't directly explain the existence of the venus fly trap. Just like my theory doesn't directly address Harvey's insurance policy. But you can apply the theory of evolution to the venus fly trap and its environment to come up with an explanation.

Venus Fly Trap and the Platypus - Intelligent Design
 
Disco08 said:
Also comparing his opinion to the TTOE is a huge stretch. TTOE was researched thoroughly and tested over and over. Noam doesn't even seem to have a very good grasp on many of the crucial facts surrounding 9/11.

Again, I think you've missed the point, or at least my point. Chomsky has a theory of how society works, how vested political interests act, in concert with media, to assert authority and keep the populace compliant, outlined in his book 'Manufacturing Consent', and others. He has tested and refined that theory over and over, and its related to and derived from other theories that have been refined and tested over and over. He applies that theory to 9/11, at length in his book '9/11', to explain what happened and why. In doing so he dismisses a conspiracy, for a lot of reasons.

If you're not happy with Chomsky's thumbnail analysis outlined in the 5 min Youtube, and how it doesn't directly explain Harvey's insurance, the BEFT guys, the plane windows or whatever, maybe check out his book .9/11'? The bastard is about 100mm thick!

Also, as has been said repeatedly, Chomsky is not a fan of the US government or how it acts to further and protect the interests of corporations, over those of people. If anyone could explain and expose a 9/11 conspiracy, both in terms of analytical and intellectual ability, AND having a political pre-disposition to do so, Chomsky is the man.
 
tigersnake said:
Again, I think you've missed the point, or at least my point. Chomsky has a theory of how society works, how vested political interests act, in concert with media, to assert authority and keep the populace compliant, outlined in his book 'Manufacturing Consent', and others. He has tested and refined that theory over and over, and its related to and derived from other theories that have been refined and tested over and over. He applies that theory to 9/11, at length in his book '9/11', to explain what happened and why. In doing so he dismisses a conspiracy, for a lot of reasons.

If you're not happy with Chomsky's thumbnail analysis outlined in the 5 min Youtube, and how it doesn't directly explain Harvey's insurance, the BEFT guys, the plane windows or whatever, maybe check out his book .9/11'? The bastard is about 100mm thick!

Also, as has been said repeatedly, Chomsky is not a fan of the US government or how it acts to further and protect the interests of corporations, over those of people. If anyone could explain and expose a 9/11 conspiracy, both in terms of analytical and intellectual ability, AND having a political pre-disposition to do so, Chomsky is the man.

I've read it. It's interesting but has the same holes. He ignores so much evidence that contradicts his historical generalisations that his entire point is basically redundant.

Maybe I have a different one though because mine is only 125 pages.
 
For me Chomsky's analysis - for example in Manufacturing Consent - is far more interesting than the minutiae of one specific event, because it looks at the big picture. Why are Western governments complacent about terrorism? Why is it useful for them to have an "enemy"? Why do they like to have wars - on "drugs", on "terrorism", on the "Axis of Evil"?

Because when occasional terrorist acts occur, it allows them to further their broader political objectives of tighter social control, greater police powers, wars on other sovereign nations justified in terms of "protecting freedoms" and "spreading democracy". It also means they can "protect us" and focus our attention on "the enemies" out there. And often this is not even a particularly conscious process on the part of governments and elites - they ain't that clever actually. It's just *smile* that happens, that is part of a "dominant discourse", the wheels of bureaucracy are slow but they grind exceedingly fine.

The Truther movement as I see it is an attempt to make sense out this spectacular, random, violent event and to come to terms with why our (in this case the US) government failed to protect us. Of course, most people can't see the big picture and focus on the details, the anomalies, the grainy footage, because they are trying to create a sense of meaning, of understanding. If we think it is impossible for these technological illiterates to capture our technology and hit us incredibly hard right in the heart of America, it must have been a setup right? Those Arabs just aren't smart enough to pull that *smile* off right? So it was a set-up. It was the government. It was the Jews in the form of Larry Silverstein. Those Jews are clever bastards right enough. Or it was "the Vulcans". Or both.

So in this quest for meaning, we have to determine the detail. We poke and we prod. We examine grainy video footage of "squibs" and "pools of molten metal" and sheared off girders. We invent holograms, remote controlled planes, "controlled demolitions", NORAD was stood down, Bush had GTA missiles poking out his arse, "free-falling buildings", thermite straps, even nano-thermite WTF that is. These ideas grow from seeds - for example the thermite theory came from the discredited Jones who when pressed admitted that there were only "trace elements of thermite". Yet now the thermite demolition theory is widely accepted by Truthers, most of whom don't even understand that thermite is not an explosive but a way to cut holes in metal, that has never been used in any demolition or on anything even approaching the required scale in the world ever.

Where evidence doesn't exist, that's because it was stolen. When counter evidence exists, it was planted. And then we have to understand the motive - it was for insurance, it was to hide stolen gold and bonds, it was to hide evidence of CIA/US wrongdoings over the past 60 years. Disco's latest article that tries to pull together every theft, every embezzlement, every dirty trick ever played by the CIA and allies and store all that evidence conveniently in one little office on the 63rd floor of WTC1 (or whichever it was) is simply this kind of analysis hypertrophied. It's only an extreme manifestation of other, much simpler theories.

Now all this isn't to say that many Truthers aren't well-meaning - they just don't understand what the hell they are doing. The other extreme is the Loose Change "we are only in it for the money" or the crappy 9/11 website creator who just wants the ad click revenue. There's a sucker born every minute they say.
 
For those who never thought about this...In exchange for more access to US markets for our exporters, Howard signed the FTA.. one of the conditions of the agreement is that we had to effectively open up the floodgates and saturate our local media with a high proportion of US content. This in turn will gradually (or in many cases already has) manipulate people's thinking and opinions in regards to what actually goes on overseas and the reasoning behind it.. unless there's big changes and we rip up the agreement, within a generation or 2 the majority of people in this country will hold onto every word that originates from the American propaganda machine. Muslims are the perennial terrorists according to the BS that's pumped through our tv but on the otherhand, how much unbiased info in the media do we actually receive when the Israelis go on the rampage with their "policing operations"? The majority of news sources in this country lead directly back to the US. When things heat up in the middle east, why is it that we're constantly told that it's the muslims who are the instigators? A typical response would be "because they are", and that's where the problem lies.. where did your source of information originate from? Years ago it was easy for the CIA to infiltrate and influence nations - developing ones in particular but more often than not it backfired and resulted in undesirable outcomes, so what do they do next? Well they created an enemy.. the enemy will wreak havoc on American soil, thus driving the defensive-minded masses into a patriotic frenzy which in turn will openly condone military action against the "enemy". Prime examples of Korea, Vietnam, Iran/Iraq, Afghanistan,and the Kosovo conflicts all have their political roots intwined with the CIA.
 
antman said:
For me Chomsky's analysis - for example in Manufacturing Consent - is far more interesting than the minutiae of one specific event, because it looks at the big picture. Why are Western governments complacent about terrorism? Why is it useful for them to have an "enemy"? Why do they like to have wars - on "drugs", on "terrorism", on the "Axis of Evil"?

Because when occasional terrorist acts occur, it allows them to further their broader political objectives of tighter social control, greater police powers, wars on other sovereign nations justified in terms of "protecting freedoms" and "spreading democracy". It also means they can "protect us" and focus our attention on "the enemies" out there. And often this is not even a particularly conscious process on the part of governments and elites - they ain't that clever actually. It's just sh!t that happens, that is part of a "dominant discourse", the wheels of bureaucracy are slow but they grind exceedingly fine.

The Truther movement as I see it is an attempt to make sense out this spectacular, random, violent event and to come to terms with why our (in this case the US) government failed to protect us. Of course, most people can't see the big picture and focus on the details, the anomalies, the grainy footage, because they are trying to create a sense of meaning, of understanding. If we think it is impossible for these technological illiterates to capture our technology and hit us incredibly hard right in the heart of America, it must have been a setup right? Those Arabs just aren't smart enough to pull that sh!t off right? So it was a set-up. It was the government. It was the Jews in the form of Larry Silverstein. Those Jews are clever bastards right enough. Or it was "the Vulcans". Or both.

So in this quest for meaning, we have to determine the detail. We poke and we prod. We examine grainy video footage of "squibs" and "pools of molten metal" and sheared off girders. We invent holograms, remote controlled planes, "controlled demolitions", NORAD was stood down, Bush had GTA missiles poking out his arse, "free-falling buildings", thermite straps, even nano-thermite WTF that is. These ideas grow from seeds - for example the thermite theory came from the discredited Jones who when pressed admitted that there were only "trace elements of thermite". Yet now the thermite demolition theory is widely accepted by Truthers, most of whom don't even understand that thermite is not an explosive but a way to cut holes in metal, that has never been used in any demolition or on anything even approaching the required scale in the world ever.

Where evidence doesn't exist, that's because it was stolen. When counter evidence exists, it was planted. And then we have to understand the motive - it was for insurance, it was to hide stolen gold and bonds, it was to hide evidence of CIA/US wrongdoings over the past 60 years. Disco's latest article that tries to pull together every theft, every embezzlement, every dirty trick ever played by the CIA and allies and store all that evidence conveniently in one little office on the 63rd floor of WTC1 (or whichever it was) is simply this kind of analysis hypertrophied. It's only an extreme manifestation of other, much simpler theories.

Now all this isn't to say that many Truthers aren't well-meaning - they just don't understand what the hell they are doing. The other extreme is the Loose Change "we are only in it for the money" or the crappy 9/11 website creator who just wants the ad click revenue. There's a sucker born every minute they say.

That's a fair misrepresentation. There's plenty of evidence to support the theory of foreknolwedge. What counter evidence is there? What evidence is there tying the hijackers to OBL? What's this much simpler theory that satisfies all the known evidence?

thermite is not an explosive but a way to cut holes in metal, that has never been used in any demolition


Ottawa_Citizen.png


Of course thousands of experts support the theory of controlled demolition because they feel it best satisfies the available evidence. It's not just a generic group of "truthers".

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/thermite.php

http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/575-popular-mechanics-ignores-its-own-historical-records-of-thermite-demolition-destruction-of-skyride-towers-reichstag-dome-set-incendiary-precedent.html

How has Jones been discredited?
 
RfC77 said:
This in turn will gradually (or in many cases already has) manipulate people's thinking and opinions in regards to what actually goes on overseas and the reasoning behind it.. unless there's big changes and we rip up the agreement, within a generation or 2 the majority of people in this country will hold onto every word that originates from the American propaganda machine. Muslims are the perennial terrorists according to the BS that's pumped through our tv but on the otherhand, how much unbiased info in the media do we actually receive when the Israelis go on the rampage with their "policing operations"? The majority of news sources in this country lead directly back to the US.

Some interesting thoughts, but I think in some sense you are a step behind. In my opinion this is a fairly limited view of the way the political zeitgeist is evolving via the media in recent times. It neglects to consider that other forms of media, primarily the internet, are rapidly altering how news and views arrive to us. I mean, I can't remember the last time I bought a newspaper, it must be years. Clearly I'm not the only one given that print media sales are plummeting - Fairfax just moved to being a small paper in a last most likely futile effort to generate more sales.

Rather than setting news flow and disseminating propaganda, the mainstream media is actuality gradually losing control of the public mind. 911 Truth movements and other websites of similar ilk with sometimes bizzare worldviews are rapidly penetrating the mainstream.

And I suspect your guys at the CIA know this better than anyone. People should begin to consider the idea that, rather than unearthing government plots, a number of these 'truth' movements may in fact be government backed themselves. It seems to me this thread demonstrates it beautifully: more information can often mean greater obfuscation.
 
Disco08 said:
How has Jones been discredited?

Mr. Jones' article (that's right, no doctorate) has been thoroughly debunked. After the publication and subsequent controversy around the Jones article the university politely negotiated a retirement package for him. Of course this could also be construed as being due to political pressure from the Vulcans, Romulans or whoever. By the way, Jones has also written extensively about the compelling evidence from Mayan ruins about Jesus Christ's visits to South America. Anyway, it's ad hominem, so let's take a look at some of the methodological problems around Jones' approach. CBF typing them all in so read this

https://sites.google.com/site/911guide/jones

This is even without going into any of the logistical problems of smuggling tons and tons of thermite in, somehow attaching it to steel beams embedded in concrete, then devices to hold the burning thermite to the girders as they burnt, then attaching the hundreds of kilometres of wiring and electrics to fire the thermite, then somehow synchronise the thermite reactions so columns are neatly burnt in consecutive floor order from the plane crash sites down so they pancake precisely, and all this in an evironment with burning jet fuel and crashed planes etc etc etc

Would suggest your next port of call is the Nils Harrit thermite paper, rack it up and I'll knock that one down too.