The main issue on 9/11 continues to be the 'pancake collapse' which is hard to fathom considering the planes hit the building from the top quarter rather than under the bottom half.
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9/11
- Thread starter Harry
- Start date
Tiger74 said:
As far as I can see, there are no real disputes. In most cases there seems to be a fairly long line of experts disagreeing with the official explanation and a handful defending it, most notably popularmechanics. These people aren't making any statements about conspiracy theories or cover ups, they're simply pointing out that facts contained in the official reports are, ITO, false.
Disco08 said:
I always wonder what made these goofs at 'Popular Mechanics' be known as 'expert' opinions anyway?
What an easy way to gain fame.
Disco08 said:
Not making conspiracy claims? When people are claiming its impossible for someone to pilot the plane, the building collapses could not happen without explosives, and that one car park security camera at the Pentagon shows no wreckage of a plane (so it must be a cruise missile), how can you say a conspiracy theory is not being put forward? Also do you believe the claims of no Jews dieing in the WTC?
I reckon you need more faith to believe the US Government as a part of a Jewish conspiracy and a desire to start a war in Iraq faked the attacks than you do to believe in Kirk Camerons crocoduck.
Disco08 said:
So IYO this = the US government undertook an exercise to murder its own citizens, on its own soil to justify a war in Afghanistan, which later they changed to Iraq?
I am not saying this is what you think, I am really quite interested to know what conclusions you have come to based on the statement you make above.
This is starting to remind me of the debates I have had with a good friend, who is undertaking a PhD in cell biology and has bought into the HIV does not equal AIDS line. For such an intelligent guy, it is amazing how strongly he holds to such a ridiculous proposition in the face of ever-strengthening evidence. We always end up back in that discussion after a few beers!
I'm no political enthusiast so I don't make any broader assumptions. All I know is that when almost every facet of the official report is questioned by people with relevant expertise then it's hard to believe it. This then begs the question why would a report contain so much false information?
The US government has shown they have no trouble murdering innocent people to achive their agendas. Why should their citizens be safe from such ruthlessness?
It's entirely possible to question the accuracy of facts contained within official reports without making a larger accusation isn't it?
The US government has shown they have no trouble murdering innocent people to achive their agendas. Why should their citizens be safe from such ruthlessness?
Tiger74 said:
It's entirely possible to question the accuracy of facts contained within official reports without making a larger accusation isn't it?
Here's a reply to Popular Mechanics' view:
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm
Disco08 said:
So you do subscribe to the whole conspiracy theory? Not just that some of the findings may be questionable? 'Tis a big leap.
Yes, but the sentence that preceded this suggests that there is a larger accusation being made.
Did it? Was the sentence false IYO?
As I said I'm no political enthusiast and a conspiracy theory like this would clearly have very deep political motivation, something I know next to nothing about other than having watched Zeitgeist. I don't really have an opinion on how the events exactly happened, but am I fairly convinced that the government is lying about their version of events. To me this strongly implies that they had some involvement in the events.
As I said I'm no political enthusiast and a conspiracy theory like this would clearly have very deep political motivation, something I know next to nothing about other than having watched Zeitgeist. I don't really have an opinion on how the events exactly happened, but am I fairly convinced that the government is lying about their version of events. To me this strongly implies that they had some involvement in the events.
Disco08 said:
Yet you claim the US Govt has no quams killing innocents and therefore would have few about killing its own citizens.
For someone claiming to have no political views or agenda, it seems you have a pretty strong one against the US Govt. Is it not possible that this very hostile view is making you more open to these 9/11 theories because you want to believe them (like some of muslims in the mid east believing a lot of the rubbish jew conspiracies floating around the world, because they want to believe the jews and the US are the root of all their problems)?
Tiger74 said:
There does seem to be a strong anti-US undercurrent to Disco's postings on this matter. Not that I have been a fan of the outgoing US government, quite the opposite, but for the government to choose to murder 1000s of its own citizens I would need to see something a bit more convincing than what I have seen to date.
I struggle to see the benefit to the government of this alleged action and I think Chomsky's views at the bottom of the link I posted earlier are relevant.
Tiger74 said:
Do you dispute this claim?
Tiger74 said:
Maybe, maybe not. Most times I'm fairly quick to trust what seems to be a consensus among experts so I think this is shaping my opinion more than any hatred of the US government which I can honestly tell you I don't spend much time thinking about at all.
Disco08 said:
I dispute it to the extent that they would have to have some perceived benefit from the undertaking. How did they benefit from 9/11, remembering that they are killing thousands of US citizens on US soil to achieve this aim?
Consensus? By experts on a 9/11 conspiracy? Really?
Yes, my son played me Zeitgeist.
Interesting film, a bit like those Eric Von Daniken films that we saw in the 70s about the indisputable proof that aliens influenced the progress of humans on Earth.
If you present an argument in a particular way, with certain apparent truths, then it becomes a compelling argument.
Even before Zeitgeist there was always the argument that the US intelligence knew that there was going to be a sea attack at Pearl Harbour and wanted it to be a trigger point for a war.
In regards to 9/11, I think the truth lies in a similar grey area. It is probable that the US intelligence probably may have had warnings but the new Republican administration was spoiling for a fight anyway.
Over the years, I have come to appreciate that the US has too much involvement in the politics of foreign countries where no existing alliances apply.
For me, the US involvement in training the rebels in Afganistan in the 70s & 80s, to prolong a Cold War against the Soviet Union, where this was clearly a Soviet border issue, now paints a poor picture for the US and has backfired on them.
Also, retrospectively, the US should not have become involved in Iraq and, doubly so, chose to get behind the far more extreme Shi'ites by displacing the encumbent more moderate Sunni regime.
But by far more, I am extremely angry that the greater beneficiary of all these US adventures has been Cheney Associated Enterprises. The Republican Wheelers & Dealers have made a fortune from these foreign incursions, at the cost of ordinary Americans & others.
Just remember that it was the US that dobbed in the AWB over the Iraq wheat contracts.
And you know who got awarded all of those wheat contracts after?
Yes, Cheney Associated Enterprises.
Yes, the Republican Wheelers & Dealers.
To me, this is Obama's biggest issue for immediate attention.
Interesting film, a bit like those Eric Von Daniken films that we saw in the 70s about the indisputable proof that aliens influenced the progress of humans on Earth.
If you present an argument in a particular way, with certain apparent truths, then it becomes a compelling argument.
Even before Zeitgeist there was always the argument that the US intelligence knew that there was going to be a sea attack at Pearl Harbour and wanted it to be a trigger point for a war.
In regards to 9/11, I think the truth lies in a similar grey area. It is probable that the US intelligence probably may have had warnings but the new Republican administration was spoiling for a fight anyway.
Over the years, I have come to appreciate that the US has too much involvement in the politics of foreign countries where no existing alliances apply.
For me, the US involvement in training the rebels in Afganistan in the 70s & 80s, to prolong a Cold War against the Soviet Union, where this was clearly a Soviet border issue, now paints a poor picture for the US and has backfired on them.
Also, retrospectively, the US should not have become involved in Iraq and, doubly so, chose to get behind the far more extreme Shi'ites by displacing the encumbent more moderate Sunni regime.
But by far more, I am extremely angry that the greater beneficiary of all these US adventures has been Cheney Associated Enterprises. The Republican Wheelers & Dealers have made a fortune from these foreign incursions, at the cost of ordinary Americans & others.
Just remember that it was the US that dobbed in the AWB over the Iraq wheat contracts.
And you know who got awarded all of those wheat contracts after?
Yes, Cheney Associated Enterprises.
Yes, the Republican Wheelers & Dealers.
To me, this is Obama's biggest issue for immediate attention.
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