Wealth

[Play Centre]

The only poverty Liverpool knows is the poverty of his own logic, arguments and thinking. And even then he needs others to point it out to him.

 

[Liverpool]

What is the answer then?

Leave it the way it is.....and in fact, I'd go one step further and make it mandatory for people on the dole after 12 months to work for the dole by doing community service.
After 24 months on the dole they have can be conscripted into the armed services.

At least when they get back to civilian life then they have some sort of discipline or career focus...or maybe have learnt some type of skill that may improve their chances of employment.

Sitting back handing out cash it just not it.
And punishing the achievers of our society certainly isn't it.

You keep wanting to bring this back to the dole bludger who needs to get off his arse and do something for himself but this is not the people who need help.
Another ridiculous comment.

And why is it a ridiculous comment?
You name one type of person here in Australia that is ineligible for welfare assistance?
Like I stated....there are pensions and allowances for just about every scenario and add to that the charities that can help and the courses and schoolings specifically set-up for low-income/unemployed people....and there is simply no excuse for people to be in your "extreme poverty".
The people you think are in this scenario are the ones who have blown their welfare money on sh!t (drugs, booze, tatts, smokes, etc) instead of what welfare is actually supposed to be for: food and shelter.

Again Livers, unless you're talking from experience you have no idea and all your doing is proving your small minded arrogance.

I am talking from experience....I see it every day in Melbourne....people hassling the public for change....."can you spare a 20c for a train ticket".....people laying there on the sidewalk with a cup for people to put money in.....mothers downing bourbon at lunchtime and feeding their kids fried chicken and chips while the boyfriend (or husband or one of the fathers of one of the kids) does a deal on the corner with some other dropkick.
So what experience am I supposed to have....go and get myself a soup-kitchen and serve some of the layabouts myself? what experience have YOU had then seeing as you like to preach??

The only poverty Liverpool knows is the poverty of his own logic, arguments and thinking. And even then he needs others to point it out to him.

How do you know what I know Play Centre?
How about you get a decent name for a start! :hihi

 

[Disco08]

Leave it the way it is

It's unacceptable - but just leave it the way it is. Great thinking.

.....and in fact, I'd go one step further and make it mandatory for people on the dole after 12 months to work for the dole by doing community service.
After 24 months on the dole they have can be conscripted into the armed services.

At least when they get back to civilian life then they have some sort of discipline or career focus...or maybe have learnt some type of skill that may improve their chances of employment.

Sitting back handing out cash it just not it.
And punishing the achievers of our society certainly isn't it.

Again we're back to the dole bludgers who have very little to do with the discussion.

And why is it a ridiculous comment?

Because you have to make everything black and white. You can't fathom that most times there is more grey area in between.

You name one type of person here in Australia that is ineligible for welfare assistance?
Like I stated....there are pensions and allowances for just about every scenario and add to that the charities that can help and the courses and schoolings specifically set-up for low-income/unemployed people....and there is simply no excuse for people to be in your "extreme poverty".
The people you think are in this scenario are the ones who have blown their welfare money on sh!t (drugs, booze, tatts, smokes, etc) instead of what welfare is actually supposed to be for: food and shelter.

Some of them may be but again your insistence that every one in this position belongs to this stereotype just highlights your chauvinistic prejudice.

You're right that there is welfare available for every Australian should they need it. The big problem is (the one they you don't seem to get now and haven't been able to comprehend previously no matter how clearly it is spelled out for you) that by the time some people are able to reach out for this assistance their lives are basically ruined beyond repair. It's these people that need to be found earlier if bland statistics such as child poverty rates are ever going to improve to the level of more advanced countries.

I am talking from experience....I see it every day in Melbourne....people hassling the public for change....."can you spare a 20c for a train ticket".....people laying there on the sidewalk with a cup for people to put money in.....mothers downing bourbon at lunchtime and feeding their kids fried chicken and chips while the boyfriend (or husband or one of the fathers of one of the kids) does a deal on the corner with some other dropkick.
So what experience am I supposed to have....go and get myself a soup-kitchen and serve some of the layabouts myself?

Case in point. You see the people and immediately presume to know how they got into this situation. Apart from walking past these people and ignoring them you have absolutely no experience of anyone living in poverty. Is that correct?

what experience have YOU had then....

I've volunteered as a counselor at Woden hospital in the ACT. My mother has worked for 30 years on the front line of mental health which sees some of the most acute cases. Two close friends of mine work as case workers for DoCS as well so I've heard a lot of stories Livers.

....seeing as you like to preach??

I do? What's my message?

 

[Play Centre]

To return to Duekeo's original idea: he suggested that we look at earnings and maybe place some sort of supertax on the superrich.

I was reading about Britney Spears today and apparently she goes thru 1.3mill a month all up.

Now clearly to spend this much u have to earn much more. And a lot of this goes on child maintenance and things like that. but clearly she has money to burn.

surely, instead of throwing it all away she could do something useful and altruistic with it? Maybe she does and all power to her if that's so.

 

[Play Centre]

re. Britney

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/people/the-cost-of-being-britney-20090520-beta.html

 

[Liverpool]

It's unacceptable - but just leave it the way it is. Great thinking.

i did offer to more steps which you conveniently left out.
You've had a habit of this lately..... :spin

Again we're back to the dole bludgers who have very little to do with the discussion.

Where did I say anything about dole bludgers with my 2 options?
I simply said people on the dole for 1 year and 2 years should be forced to do community service and then onto the armed forces.
Some of these people will be dole bludgers, sure...but others might be people who are in a profession that there is no demand for....so its a good way for them to learn a new trade/career as well as help the country also.
I guess you could call it "re-training".

You're right that there is welfare available for every Australian should they need it. The big problem is (the one they you don't seem to get now and haven't been able to comprehend previously no matter how clearly it is spelled out for you) that by the time some people are able to reach out for this assistance their lives are basically ruined beyond repair. It's these people that need to be found earlier if bland statistics such as child poverty rates are ever going to improve to the level of more advanced countries.

Rubbish Disco.
If every Australian out there who hasn't got a job can get welfare then its simply a matter of that person becoming even more frugal and responsible with this money.
People's lives are not totally ruined and child poverty doesn't just occur between someone losing their job or having their house burnt down and receiving the welfare they are entitled to.
And in between there are various charities to also lend assistance.
Again...there is no reason for people (including children) to be living in "extreme poverty" in this country if they are responsible for their actions.

You see the people and immediately presume to know how they got into this situation. Apart from walking past these people and ignoring them you have absolutely no experience of anyone living in poverty. Is that correct?

I don't have to have a *smile* in my bum to know homosexuality isn't my thing either..... :hihi

Look....to be honest I'm not that interested in HOW they got into that situation....I'm more interested in WHAT are they doing to get OUT of this situation.
That to me says a lot more about the character of the person than how they got into the situation.

I do? What's my message?

Bow to the eternal victim.

re. Britney
http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/people/the-cost-of-being-britney-20090520-beta.html

Good on her! :clap

 

[Play Centre]

Good on her for what? ???

 

[Liverpool]

Good on her for what? ???

For spending her money.
I assume thats why you posted the link? or?

 

[Disco08]

i did offer to more steps which you conveniently left out.
You've had a habit of this lately..... :spin

Is that right? Where?

Your other steps focused solely on the dole and presumably stopping dole bludgers, who aren't the real people in need.

Where did I say anything about dole bludgers with my 2 options?

Your options were making people work for the dole and then conscripting them into the army if they didn't find work. If this wasn't aimed at dole bludgers, who was it aimed at?

Some of these people will be dole bludgers, sure...but others might be people who are in a profession that there is no demand for....so its a good way for them to learn a new trade/career as well as help the country also.
I guess you could call it "re-training".

I see, so you did actually say something about dole bludgers and for the rest you're re-training the unemployed. These really aren't the people in the greatest need.

Rubbish Disco.
If every Australian out there who hasn't got a job can get welfare then its simply a matter of that person becoming even more frugal and responsible with this money.
People's lives are not totally ruined and child poverty doesn't just occur between someone losing their job or having their house burnt down and receiving the welfare they are entitled to.
And in between there are various charities to also lend assistance.
Again...there is no reason for people (including children) to be living in "extreme poverty" in this country if they are responsible for their actions.

So the children living in poverty according to official statistics which give Australia a fairly poor record in this area are in these situations simply because they don't get off their arses and help themselves? It has nothing to do with the treatment they receive as they grow up and the conditions they are forced to endure? Did you read the basic principles of the poverty cycle Livers? Or are you convinced that it doesn't exist even though every western country recognises it and takes steps to try and eradicate it?

Look....to be honest I'm not that interested in HOW they got into that situation....I'm more interested in WHAT are they doing to get OUT of this situation.
That to me says a lot more about the character of the person than how they got into the situation.

If you fail to look at and learn from the past you'll never succeed in righting past wrongs. It's a simple concept. Even if you only look at the situations which caused someone's situation as a research exercise to help stop others falling victim of the same thing it's well worth doing.

Good to see you finally admit you have no real experience with people living in these circumstances though. At least I can definitively treat all your opinions on these topics as the misguided falsisms based on long held prejudices that they obviously are now.

Bow to the eternal victim.

Oh yeah? Care to pick out a few posts where I've preached this mate?

 

[Play Centre]

Liverpool, stop sidetracking the debate. We live in a society, broken up into smaller communities, and we are nothing if we don't have some sort of collective outlook.

If you want to remain outside of that, you need to be very lucky.

We are responsible for ourselves, but also for our families and for others. We aren't animals of prey.

 

[1eyedtiger]

Liverpool, stop sidetracking the debate. We live in a society, broken up into smaller communities, and we are nothing if we don't have some sort of collective outlook.

If you want to remain outside of that, you need to be very lucky.

We are responsible for ourselves, but also for our families and for others. We aren't animals of prey.

Disagree. We are animals of greed. Therefore, we prey on others for what may or not be rightfully theirs. Profit, for instance, is the exploitation of others. To make a profit, you are charging more for a good or service than that good or service is really worth. Somewhere along the line, someone is being exploited. We prey on others to better our own position, just like any other animal.

 

[Play Centre]

So you see capitalism as being dog eat dog, 1eye?

 

[Liverpool]

Is that right? Where?

Here:

http://www.puntroadend.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=35212.90

Post numbers #99, #100, and #101.

Your other steps focused solely on the dole and presumably stopping dole bludgers, who aren't the real people in need.
....
I see, so you did actually say something about dole bludgers and for the rest you're re-training the unemployed. These really aren't the people in the greatest need.
.....
So the children living in poverty according to official statistics which give Australia a fairly poor record in this area are in these situations simply because they don't get off their arses and help themselves? It has nothing to do with the treatment they receive as they grow up and the conditions they are forced to endure?

I would have thought that the "extreme poverty" you speak about and the children that are sufferering in these conditions would be attributed to the adults in the family not having an income.
You say the unemployed aren't the ones in real need....but it is unemployment which determines which way society and people's lifestyles are affected.
I've never heard of anyone with a job being in "extreme poverty" yet.

Therefore, if you keep unemployment low then you keep poverty low.

Why do you think so many third-world countries or even some regional/remote parts of Australia (Aboriginal communities for example?) ahev high unemployment but also high levels of crime and "poverty"?

It is why, after a time period, the unemployed (whether they are bludgers or genuine people who can't geta job in their field of expertise) should be doing some type of paid community service and conscripted into the army.

Good to see you finally admit you have no real experience with people living in these circumstances though. At least I can definitively treat all your opinions on these topics as the misguided falsisms based on long held prejudices that they obviously are now.

I don't think you need "real experience" with people on welfare to realise that some of them are genuine and some of them are not.
And its not prejudice to say that, its reality.
Also, you don't need to be there handing out the soups for the homeless to know that there is no reason for people to be homeless in this country....even you admitted that everyone without employment is entitled to welfare of some sort....its just that some people are responsible with their income and use it simply as a means to keep them alive until they get their next job, while others see it as their new profession to accept welfare for as long as they can....and then you have others who accept it, spend it on *smile*, and then have no option but to sleep on the street.
More and more people would do this if the powers that be had your naive view.
"Extreme poverty" in this country is simply a people's choice to live that way.

But of course, you volunteering down at the local hospital gives you all the power to tell everyone how it really is 'out on the street'....

Oh yeah? Care to pick out a few posts where I've preached this mate?

200+ pages on the Aboriginal thread for starters.
When you finish reading those...you can read the 6 pages or so on this thread.

Like I stated earlier.....you are a typical stereotype that this country gets blamed for.......cutting down the tall-poppy (white Australia or the rich/successful) while trying to prop up the perceived 'underdog' (Aborigines, welfare recipients, and [insert minority group here])

I don't need to pinpoint specific posts....there are threads and pages and pages of exactly these sentiments covering various topics.

Nice sentiments and a great attitude to have towards your fellow man....that I give you full credit for.
Unfortunately, we don't live in a fantasy world where everything is as it seems.

 

[Liverpool]

Liverpool, stop sidetracking the debate. We live in a society, broken up into smaller communities, and we are nothing if we don't have some sort of collective outlook.
If you want to remain outside of that, you need to be very lucky.
We are responsible for ourselves, but also for our families and for others. We aren't animals of prey.

What am I sidetracking??? ???

We are responsible for ourselves?
Fantastic!
Exactly what I have been saying for years on this forum :clap
Wish you were on the Aboriginal thread a year or so ago when i said exactly the same thing.

And no, I am not responsible for others.
Why should I be responsible for you and what you do?
If you go out and spend all your money on drugs...end up on the street....why should I prop you up?
See your first line again "We are responsible for ourselves" ...you got it right then.

 

[Play Centre]

I find it hard to believe that you can be so ignorant and offensive naturally; therefore I can only surmise that you are bunging it on.

 

[Liverpool]

I find it hard to believe that you can be so ignorant and offensive naturally; therefore I can only surmise that you are bunging it on.

Oh, so because I don't agree with you and Disco on various groups that you deem to be "worthy" of handouts and the status of an "eternal victim"....and that I don't agree with the socialist ideals both of you wish for....I am "ignorant and offensive".

Well Play Centre.....you've been here on this forum only a short time and trust me, I've been called a lot worse on here than that.
Its water off a duck's back mate.

And you want to have a crack at me about "sidetracking"? :cutelaugh

 

[Play Centre]

It's not because you disagree. It's the way you do it. You don't add anything of value to the debate you just bang on about the same old groups, people who don't have a voice here and who can't fight back.

How about thinking a little before you mouth off?

 

[1eyedtiger]

So you see capitalism as being dog eat dog, 1eye?

Pretty much. I call it as I see it. I don't believe that it started out this way though. I believe that it has changed over the years so that the measure of success in a capitalist economy is the gap between rich and poor. The greater the gap, the greater the success. Not in the minds of the vast majority of course. But in the minds of those who have benefited the most.

 

[Disco08]

Here:

http://www.puntroadend.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=35212.90

Post numbers #99, #100, and #101.

LOL, childish much?

I would have thought that the "extreme poverty" you speak about and the children that are sufferering in these conditions would be attributed to the adults in the family not having an income.
You say the unemployed aren't the ones in real need....but it is unemployment which determines which way society and people's lifestyles are affected.
I've never heard of anyone with a job being in "extreme poverty" yet.

Of course not but you're focusing solely on unemployment which is not the defining factor of many people in need of assistance. Yes they are generally all unemployed but in the vast majority of cases it isn't their inability to find a job that is the root or cause of their problems.

I don't think you need "real experience" with people on welfare to realise that some of them are genuine and some of them are not.
And its not prejudice to say that, its reality.

You're right. It's prejudiced to make blanket statements about a group of people as you are so fond of doing. It's good to see you making some sense finally.

Also, you don't need to be there handing out the soups for the homeless to know that there is no reason for people to be homeless in this country....even you admitted that everyone without employment is entitled to welfare of some sort....its just that some people are responsible with their income and use it simply as a means to keep them alive until they get their next job, while others see it as their new profession to accept welfare for as long as they can....and then you have others who accept it, spend it on sh!t, and then have no option but to sleep on the street.

Again in some or many cases you may be right. But you have to understand that there are significant amounts of people out there who are so badly off that they can't manage to get onto welfare or that there are people who genuinely can't survive on the welfare they are given.

More and more people would do this if the powers that be had your naive view.

Is that right? Care to explain why even though I haven't proposed giving people on the dole more money?

But of course, you volunteering down at the local hospital gives you all the power to tell everyone how it really is 'out on the street'....

Don't be so immature. You asked and I told you. It doesn't give me any more 'power' than the next person and only you could act as if you think that I think it does. Grow up, seriously.

200+ pages on the Aboriginal thread for starters.
When you finish reading those...you can read the 6 pages or so on this thread.

Like I stated earlier.....you are a typical stereotype that this country gets blamed for.......cutting down the tall-poppy (white Australia or the rich/successful) while trying to prop up the perceived 'underdog' (Aborigines, welfare recipients, and [insert minority group here])

I don't need to pinpoint specific posts....there are threads and pages and pages of exactly these sentiments covering various topics.

You won't pick out a specific post because you know you're being disingenuous. I don't want to cut down anyone that's rich or successful. Show me one post where I have said that I do. Likewise, I've never made statements regarding an entire minority group. I certainly haven't made a statement about welfare recipients other than to say that that isn't the group who solely need help. I could also pluck out 10 posts right now where I've stated there are indigenous people taking advantage or being dishonest as well as those that need help, so again, you're wrong and you know it.

Nice sentiments and a great attitude to have towards your fellow man....that I give you full credit for.
Unfortunately, we don't live in a fantasy world where everything is as it seems.

How rich coming from you, the King of stereotyping and conjured reality. :cutelaugh

 

[Liverpool]

It's not because you disagree. It's the way you do it. You don't add anything of value to the debate you just bang on about the same old groups, people who don't have a voice here and who can't fight back.
How about thinking a little before you mouth off?

Considering the thread is about these groups (distributing wealth from the rich to give to the poor) then it is a bit hard for me to comment on this thread without "banging on about the same groups".

The only thing you would 'value' in this debate is that I agree 100% with you and Disco views.
Its not happening on this thread, so suck it up....and if you can't accept people having a different opinion than yourself then don't post on the thread.

And as for the people who can't fight back...well, they're in extreme poverty....so they don't have a computer or access to one....so...does that mean we can't discuss their perceived 'plight'?
Time to get real Play Centre.