The Weagles and bottoming out.

[bullus_hit]

I think the point is though that with the way scouting is done these days and the resources put into it, it is very hard to see how you could realistically fiddle the draft to get the player you want where you want him. You'd be certainly running a huge risk if you didn't pick him up earlier if you had the chance.

Everything is a calculated risk in recruiting but that's not going to stop clubs from enhancing their chances of getting their desired target, the interstate clubs have a huge advantage because of the resources they have at their disposal. Hiding players, resting players or giving them limited game time, encouraging kids to under perform at the draft camp, it all goes on and it helps immensely when there's only one other club with a similar grassroots influence. Victorian clubs will naturally be at a disadvantage given the intense competition, WA on the other hand would be very difficult to comb if you've only got one or two scouts responsible for an entire state. Even from our own perspective, it was only a few years ago when we were recruiting off the back of Greg Miller video nights.

 

[zippadeee]

Maybe but the problem with that theory is that after we took Conca at 6 Darling was gone by the time our next pick came along . There is no evidence that Richmond had any problem taking Darling , we just didn't get the chance to do so .

We should've taken him at 6! Stop drafting midgets

 

[Sintiger]

We should've taken him at 6! Stop drafting midgets

Conca is hardly a midget .

Virtually every club in the AFL passed on Darling before he was finally picked , even West Coast at 4 if you want to get pedantic .

As others have said it seems Richmond may well have taken him if we had a pick earlier .

 

[TigerMasochist]

But back to Jack Darling, don't you think it was even slightly odd that West Coast ranked him in their top 5 yet every other club thought he was too hot to handle? Don't you even for second believe he may have embellished his larrikan streak in order to put clubs off?

Now there's a conspiracy theory worthy of rating pure bullus-hit. If I recall even close to accurately Darling got his scone fractured after a night out at the pub. Serious way to enhance a larrikan streak.

 

[bullus_hit]

Now there's a conspiracy theory worthy of rating pure bullus-hit. If I recall even close to accurately Darling got his scone fractured after a night out at the pub. Serious way to enhance a larrikan streak.

So what were the details TM, he got in a fight and came out second best. How many people innocent or guilty get bruised in a fight? This is my point, people like yourself have assumed that he firstly started the fight, that his attitude was a massive risk (completely ignoring his talents), that all the media reports about his lack of profressionalism were accurate and that West Coast were simply lucky that all this turned out to be a storm in a teacup. Like I said, we'll never know what he conveyed in the draft interviews but it's clear only West Coast rated him a top 5 talent and only at the last minute selected Gaff at pick 4 (according to Emma Quayle), every other club then overlooked him with GC ignoring him with their next 8 picks. Proving anything of this nature would be akin to getting a signed confessional of draft tampering so it aint going to happen but in the end, it is all the drivel and innuendo which has proven to be utter bullushit. Did Jack Darling contribute to the wild child theories in order to stay in his home state, you make your own mind up.

 

[TigerMasochist]

So what were the details TM, he got in a fight and came out second best. How many people innocent or guilty get bruised in a fight? This is my point, people like yourself have assumed that he firstly started the fight, that his attitude was a massive risk (completely ignoring his talents), that all the media reports about his lack of profressionalism were accurate and that West Coast were simply lucky that all this turned out to be a storm in a teacup. Like I said, we'll never know what he conveyed in the draft interviews but it's clear only West Coast rated him a top 5 talent and only at the last minute selected Gaff at pick 4 (according to Emma Quayle), every other club then overlooked him with GC ignoring him with their next 8 picks. Proving anything of this nature would be akin to getting a signed confessional of draft tampering so it aint going to happen but in the end, it is all the drivel and innuendo which has proven to be utter bullush!t. Did Jack Darling contribute to the wild child theories in order to stay in his home state, you make your own mind up.

No idea of the details bullus, probably the same as yourself. If I read your earlier post correctly it was you not me who was suggesting he played up some assumed larrikan streak to avoid getting drafted to an interstate club. All I said was that it would be an extreme measure to get yourself into a fight and get your skull smashed just to alter your draft prospects. No suggestion from me at all who started the fight or what his attitude was, though plenty of media articles were happy to highlight his misdemeanours, also to suggest he'd suffered lingering problems from his head injury.
From memory plenty of clubs rated his talent when he was underage. Then in his last junior year his form tapered badly plus he started to get himself into various amounts of trouble. From the draft results it's obvious that no club was game to take him with the precious first round pick. Mold Coast obviously had no interest in him at all and Wet Coke figured he was reasonably priced perhaps a bonus even at their second round pick.
If you're happy to run with the draft tampering theory good luck to ya, but getting you're head bashed in just to paint a wild child image seems a bit extreme to me.

 

[bullus_hit]

TM, with all due respect (and I respect you as an astute poster) I'm not for a second suggesting Darling fractured his skull to deliberately put off rival clubs, I'm merely referring to the public relations exercise immediately following the incident. The bad boy image was completely overplayed by the media in my opinion and distracted from the real issue of whether he was professional enough to play AFL. It begs the question as to why so many clubs were scared to take the plunge when West Coast didn't appear to be perturbed in the slightest (based on Emma Quayle's pre-draft musings that it was Gaff or Darling at pick 4). Did the remainder of the competition rely solely on the sensationalist reporting or did they go out with a mind to interview the kid and get some clarity on his supposed character flaws. If Darling had gotten wind of West Coast's interest and had decided that would be his preferred destination why wouldn't he play up on it a little? It's pretty commonplace for potential draftees to give a mixed bag of interviews and it wouldn't surprise me if did little to allay the fears of clubs like GC if he had no interest in moving there.

I mentioned it before but when the likes of Fremantle went to visit Ben Griffiths, his family refused to answer the door. It's hardly a hangable offence but it is one way of manipulating the draft, in fact I would be disappointed if our mob didn't attempt to eke out every competitive advantage when attempting to get their first preferences. In the end, all the fuss about Darling being a loose cannon has been completely unfounded and West Coast landed a guy who they rated in the top 5 of the draft, good on them too because I think he'll live up to their expectations.

 

[Streak]

TM, with all due respect (and I respect you as an astute poster)

You were putting up a good fight there Bullus until you posted that :hihi

 

[bullus_hit]

You were putting up a good fight there Bullus until you posted that :hihi

In the spirit of another hot topic we're all equals here. ;D

 

[JR8]

I mentioned it before but when the likes of Fremantle went to visit Ben Griffiths, his family refused to answer the door.

How did the family know it was Freo knocking at the door??????

 

[bullus_hit]

How did the family know it was Freo knocking at the door??????

Don't know the details but apparently the family hid out the back until they left, I'm assuming they played ball and agreed to an appointment and then got cold feet at the prospect of sending their son interstate. There's been a number of instances where parents have chimed into the debate with throwaway lines about family values, it's probably an effective deterrent with 'homesickness' seemingly becoming more prevalent.

 

[Lennox Street]

Even Francis Jackson has been embarking on his own cloak and dagger tactics when he went about securing Matty Dea.

And in this story you have the reality. FJ tried to AVOID contacting Dea. He knew that Adelaide had a scout who was his coach at school. He wasn't hiding the kid or anything of the sort. He was praying no one else had seen him.

It's a competitive environment out there and I'm sure each and every recruiter uses a vast array tricks and strategies to land the fish.

The only trick they have is keeping their mouths shut and hoping the news doesn't get out. The best way to do that is to avoid doing anything.

 

[bullus_hit]

And in this story you have the reality. FJ tried to AVOID contacting Dea. He knew that Adelaide had a scout who was his coach at school. He wasn't hiding the kid or anything of the sort. He was praying no one else had seen him.

The only trick they have is keeping their mouths shut and hoping the news doesn't get out. The best way to do that is to avoid doing anything.

I think you're taking things out of context Mr Lewis, that comment was made in the wider discussion of recruiting tricks of the trade. I agree one needs to be careful when spouting off sensitive information but if a player expresses a desire to play at your club and you want him then it makes sense to offer some advice which may burn off the opposition. Darling wasn't exactly low profile and the negative press was working in West Coast's favour, keeping up perceptions in this instance could only be beneficial to both parties.

 

[Lennox Street]

I think you're taking things out of context Mr Lewis, that comment was made in the wider discussion of recruiting tricks of the trade.

Apologies. My browser makes it diifcult to respond to multiple quote blocks.[/quote]

1. Kerr: You don't hide players at Acquinas College in Perth. It has a long tradition of producing sportsmen. And everyone would take the time to check out Roger Kerr's son.

2. Cox was playing Colts football and even in Cousins' bio he says he thought the Eagles had recruited a dud who couldn't keep up in preseason. No real suprise, the country kids often struggle early days in the WAFL. Plenty of clubs rookie 200cm beanpole ruckmen, sometimes you get lucky.

There is a world of difference betwen having inside knowledge about a player and distoting the draft. Richmond had inside knowledge about Caulfield Grammar kids via Barry Rowlings who taught there and it got us a succession of players. Francis Jackson reckons Ben Jakobi will be a player, remembers hiim from when FJ was a sports master at Brighton Grammar. Doesn't mean he told him to play dead.

Half these kids already have agents.

I agree one needs to be careful when spouting off sensitive information but if a player expresses a desire to play at your club and you want him then it makes sense to offer some advice which may burn off the opposition. Darling wasn't exactly low profile and the negative press was working in West Coast's favour, keeping up perceptions in this instance could only be beneficial to both parties.

Darling was upset that Gold Coast wouldn't take him as a prelisted player like Swallow. He was very prepared to go to a club other than a WA one. In the end GC said no to him - which meant that he was always going to fall because they had so many of the first round picks. http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/sport/a/-/wafl/6368484/wafc-chief-warns-afl-clubs-hands-off-our-kids/

Of course the Eagles knew a lot about Darling. Trevor Woodhouse had been a teacher at Darling's school (before Darling was there) so could make some calls and get a really good read on whether the kid was evil or just idiotic. But that isn't a conspiracy theory, hiding a player, or getting him to play dead.

 

[TigerMasochist]

TM, with all due respect (and I respect you as an astute poster )I'm not for a second suggesting Darling fractured his skull to deliberately put off rival clubs, I'm merely referring to the public relations exercise immediately following the incident. The bad boy image was completely overplayed by the media in my opinion and distracted from the real issue of whether he was professional enough to play AFL. It begs the question as to why so many clubs were scared to take the plunge when West Coast didn't appear to be perturbed in the slightest (based on Emma Quayle's pre-draft musings that it was Gaff or Darling at pick 4). Did the remainder of the competition rely solely on the sensationalist reporting or did they go out with a mind to interview the kid and get some clarity on his supposed character flaws.

Now I know I'm in trouble when I get hit with the "all due respect ". Dr. Turf slid that one at David Gallop when he whinged about storm fans for behaving like terrorists.
All clubs pick up the odd kid with a rat bag past so I think Darlings slide down the order may have had more to do with his moderate form/lack of motivation in his last junior year. He would likely have been fairly disappointed at being the wrong age for getting drafted when he'd had a great year and then missing pre list to G.C. and perhaps went through the motions a bit when he should have smashed it in his second year of junior footy.

If clubs are stupid enough to get put off young prospects by a bit of media hyperventilation then they deserve all the rubbish they manage to draft and might as well sack their recruiting departments.

 

[bullus_hit]

If clubs are stupid enough to get put off young prospects by a bit of media hyperventilation then they deserve all the rubbish they manage to draft and might as well sack their recruiting departments.

That's my point TM, much would have come down to the interview. So what actually happened at the interview stage? That is a question nobody can answer but it's clear his responses did little to allay the fears all of the other clubs sniffing around. West Coast got it right and many of those clubs that overlooked him (particularly Melbourne and Carlton) got it wrong, nobody can prove either way as to whether he deliberately gave the bum steer but it wouldn't surprise me. Kids do it all the time, families get involved and deliberately instill fear into the minds of interstate clubs, the going home factor is massive and has the potential to make or break careers.

But that isn't a conspiracy theory, hiding a player, or getting him to play dead.

This is where I beg to differ, I reckon the interstate clubs would definitely hide players if given the opportunity. With all their grassroots connections it would seem crazy not to protect their own interests. The Kerr example is one where I'm highly suspicious and there have been other cases which have raised an eyebrow such as Nick Westhoff from Port. As has been mentioned, Geelong always produce local kids deep into the draft, there's a lot more to this than meets the eye.

 

[Lennox Street]

That's my point TM, much would have come down to the interview. So what actually happened at the interview stage? That is a question nobody can answer but it's clear his responses did little to allay the fears all of the other clubs sniffing around. West Coast got it right and many of those clubs that overlooked him (particularly Melbourne and Carlton) got it wrong, nobody can prove either way as to whether he deliberately gave the bum steer but it wouldn't surprise me. Kids do it all the time, families get involved and deliberately instill fear into the minds of interstate clubs, the going home factor is massive and has the potential to make or break careers.

Gold Coast didn't take him because Scott Clayton likes athletes and always has. So that is 8 picks.

West Coast rated Gaff higher.

Carlton decided with Fev in their minds that they couldn't take a risk and rated Watson higher because they need a defender.

Melbourne draft nice kids from good homes. Lucas Cook v Jack Darling. I suppose that decision plays out in time.

Polec, Heppell, Conca, B.Smith going before Darling = no suprise at all. Particularly how desperate those clubs are / were for midfielders.

Cats with Brown, Vardy, Hawkins were never going to take another key forward early.

So maybe he could have gone at 16 to Port.

If your conspiracy theory is true why didn't he go to Freo at 20 where Freo have huge connections with West Perth? Freo need a key forward?

He 'fell' far less than the myth thinks.

This is where I beg to differ, I reckon the interstate clubs would definitely hide players if given the opportunity. With all their grassroots connections it would seem crazy not to protect their own interests. The Kerr example is one where I'm highly suspicious and there have been other cases which have raised an eyebrow such as Nick Westhoff from Port. As has been mentioned, Geelong always produce local kids deep into the draft, there's a lot more to this than meets the eye.

Of course they would if they could but they can't. Where are you going to hide them? No club is going to make that sort of commitment to a kid, and no family in their right mind is going to take their kid out of competitive footy on a promise.

Their grassroots connections are rarely much better than the other clubs. All the clubs hire scouts who know the local scene. It is what they are hired for.

Geelong get local kids because they have a strategy of targetting country kids because they settle well. That is niche marketing - not hiding players. All those kids played TAC Cup and Vic Country footall.

Conspiracy theories always sound good on the internet but never work when people get involved.

Justin Westhoff hidden? At Central Districts the most successful club in the country? Played there from under-17s?

 

[bullus_hit]

Justin Westhoff hidden? At Central Districts the most successful club in the country? Played there from under-17s?

Wasn't Westhoff playing predominantly as a ruckman before the draft? I recall at the time it stirred a bit of debate about deliberately playing guys out of position, resting players and playing guys in the reserves. Again, nobody can prove a thing but I really think all things aren't equal at a grassroots level.

Again, I ask you the question, if Darling had received word of West Coast's interest and that's where he wanted to play why wouldn't he deliberately put off rival clubs? Are you denying players give mixed messages in interviews in order to improve their chances of getting their first preference? If during the course of an interview between player and club, is there any particular reason why a club wouldn't advise a player of strategies to deter any rivals? If they aren't doing it then I would say they're behind the game and need to brush up on their negotiating skills. Furthermore, I find it paradoxical that on one hand people are talking about Darling being a thug and the second coming of Fevola yet infer he was a goodie two-shoes during the interview process.