Russia Invades Ukraine

[Willo]

Putin issues a nuclear warning to the west over Ukraine – video — Guardian Australia

The Russian president said that Russia could use nuclear weapons if it was attacked by any state and that any conventional attack on Russia that was supported by a nuclear power would be considered to be a joint attack

apple.news

So theres no point in ever having any discussions? Just sit and wait for it to happen do we?

 

[Willo]

Zelenskyy is pitching his ‘victory plan’ on adverse terrain — Guardian Australia

Ukraine president made forceful call for ‘just peace’ at UN, but winning more US support and fending off Russia are both uphill battles

apple.news

I’d like to see the actual peace plan he proposes.

 

[mrposhman]

I don’t know who appeased the Nazis. Chamberlain thought he “peace in our time”. When Hitler invaded Poland, that was the star of WW2.
Who and how has Israel been appeased?

No, it was that NATO couldn’t put missiles on Ukrainian soil.
They were never going to be “Russian lands” but a buffer zone.

Could be part of it. I doubt they need to do that much with economic development seeing Ukraines biggest money earner is it’s agricultural exports. Then mining and manufacturing. It’s already there.

You’re taking the stance that people have said Ukraine needed to appease the Russians, and let them just walk in and take over.
I’ve yet to see anybody who has suggested that.


Sounds good in essence when it’s someone else doing the dying.
If it was family, your children or grandchildren at risk I’m sure the rhetoric would be a lot different.

No one had said anything about “appeasement”. I don’t know why this has snuck in to the conversation.

Negotiation doesn’t mean appeasement.

Come on Willo. You'd argue with yourself if you could.

You might need a history lesson if you don't know who appeased the Nazis. How about their annexation of Austria, or they invasion of Sudentenland that led to the Munich Agreement. They allowed them to take land to try and avoid war as the British and most of Western Europe tried to avoid a costly war so soon after the Great Depression. The invasion of Poland triggered war because it breached the Munich agreement.

Ironically what occurred with the Nazis, is eeriely similar to what happened with Putin and Ukraine.

The Nazis took control of Rhineland - Russia took control of the eastern part of the Donas
Then the Nazis annexed Austria - Russia annexed Crimea
Then the Nazis invaded Sudentenland - Russia did nothing in this part
Then the Nazis invaded Poland and war erupts - Then Russia invades Ukraine and war erupts.

How you can say that it isn't similar is ridiculous.

As to appeasement over negotiation. You understand what appeasement is right? Allowing the transfer of territorial land ownership to avoid conflict. If you think Putin would have come to the table with anything less than validating the annexation of the areas that he took in Crimea and the Donbas then you are living on some other planet. At the very minimum that would have been a starting position for him, no way would he have ceded that land and would have 100% demanded International acceptance and validation of the annexation of those areas. This is essentially what Trump is saying he would have done, Internationally validated the elections and allow for those lands to be legally transferred into Russian ownership.

What sort of negotiations do you think they would have gone down with?

You are trying to infer that they were 2 different conflicts, no way the negotiations would not have included both, and without doubt would have led to appeasement where Russia were transferred the ownership. The only question, is whether you think Putin would have stayed there, history tells us that he probably wouldn't. People like Putin see appeasement as weakness from the opposition and would continue to push.

Israel - Again how can you not say that was appeasement. To stop full blown out war, the International community has for decades allowed Israel to overstep their territorial boundaries and annex lands that have been legally (via the UN) been categorised as Palestinian lands.

 

[The_General]

I’ve never said they had to “appease” them. Others have said that. I haven’t.
I said there should have been negotiations.
Big difference

We know that.

It was for a different reason Putin invaded Ukraine than the Crimea/Donbas.


No, that’s why you sit down and negotiate before it gets to the last throw of the dice. War.

2 different conflicts for two very different reasons. As you should well know.

You've missed the point mate. I agree with the premise that death and destruction of any land, should be avoided. Always and absolutely. And negotiations should be done to avoid it.
But what if one party has no intention of a) negotiating or b) honouring outcomes?
There is no negotiation with those types. Putin is banking on the fact no one wants a world war, let alone a nuclear one, hence he keeps attacking. He won't stop until he's reached his goals, forcefully or otherwise. That is indisputable. Ukraine will need to cede to his will, or he'll keep attacking. And, without fully giving in, he'll regroup and attack again. Its obvious.
So you can lay the blame at the feet of the democratic leaders, or you could hold the despot involved accountable.

 

[Baloo]

Crimea got invaded 10ish years ago. Russia had its land, a path to the black sea. Then it wanted more.
You can't negotiate with Putin, because he's not interested in brokering anything other than Russian supremacy. So if Ukraine gives a bit now, in a couple of years, Putin will invade to take the rest.
Its a zero sum game for Putin.

Can't (thankfully) see what you're replying too, but you are spot on here. Putin wants the Soviet Union back. If he gets Ukraine, then he'll start planning the next invasion. Nothing surer.

 

[Willo]

 

[Willo]

 

[mrposhman]

Well you brought it up, not me.

I don’t need a history lesson. I notice you didn’t post who did.

None of that started WWW2 though did it. It was done with force but it wasn’t an invasion which is what we’re talking about here.
When Poland was invaded, there was no appeasement was there. War was declared immediately. Wasn’t it?
So with compare apples with apples.

It wasn’t an invasion

Yes, as I said previously

Nothing like it
Germany never felt threatened by a military bloc. Just the opposite. It was all about conquest, territorial expansion, Lebensraum, Aryan supremacy. Living space and to unite the Germanic people.

No country threatened Germany. If anything it was the opposite. Germany knew the major powers supported Poland, if Poland was invaded war would be declared on Germany, and was.

The Rhineland that was originally part of Germany

To unite the Germanic people.- Crimea was part of Russia for hundreds of years, up until the 1950s. That’s an argument for another day.

The Sudentland was part of the Australian Hungarian Empire and most of the people there in that area were German. Don’t forget Poland too invaded part of the country. Germany and the German part of Sudetenland wanted to be part of Germany.


World war erupts, Polands allies honour their treaties with Poland

Between those 2 countries

I can say it easily. I gave the reasons up above

I’ll say it again. I never mentioned “appeasement”

As I said…negotiation, not appeasement

I haven’t mentioned anything about Putin validating annexing Crimea and Donbas.
You’re off on a tangent now

WTF are you going on about. You keep adding bits in as part of the discussion that haven’t even been discussed.

Are you asking me or telling me what Trump would have done?
Either way it’s a seperate topic to the invasion of Ukraine

Who? Trump wasn’t in power, so obviously he couldn’t be involved.
Zelensky, Putin, the US? Britain other members of the Security Council?
You’re all over the shop

Well seeing Crimea/Donbas was over 10 years ago in 2014, and the Ukraine started in 2022, I could be forgiven that they were 2 different conflicts.


Once again no one has said anything about that except you. And you’re only guessing. You can’t prove what never happened.

*smile* appeasement again.

Not going there again. Been done to death and that thread closed.
Once again I never mentioned anything about appeasement. Stick to the topic.

You think I'm all over the shop!!

You claimed that Ukraine and the west needed to negotiate with Russia. I call it appeasement, you call it negotiation. I'll make it really easy for you:

In your opinion, what do you think Russias demands would have been in their "negotiation?

 

[AngryAnt]

This was going to be my response to Putin. Feels like this thread has gone full circle, weren't we talking about the weakness of appeasement way back in 2022?

Appeasement has been proven repeatedly that it doesn't work, how many examples do we need, clearly the Nazis are the biggest ones, Israel another good example.

The reasons given for the invasion were the proximity that Nato was getting towards Russian lands, so expanding Russian lands west would actually bring Nato troops even closer to Russian borders? Or were they planning on reducing Ukraine to essentially be a feeder country like Georgia, where they hold back economic development so that the local populace can work for the Russians.

Whats better? Not sure, but neither are a good scenario.

Reminds me though of a lyric in the song Survivor Guilt by Rise Against.

What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees."
"You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees."

So depends on peoples thoughts, had the Ukrainians appeased Russia and were essentially under their thumb, where they control their economic destiny and feed their economic empowerment essentially into Russia, is it better for them to die on their knees to Russia, or attempt to fight on their feet like they are doing. They want the chance to "live on their feet" in the above example, something that I highly doubt that appeasement would have provided them.

And still the pro-Trump/pro-Putin appeasers never mention the Ukrainian people and their right to self-determination and their right to defend their sovereign country.

Related, watch From Russia with Lev doco - Lev Parnas, previously on Trump's campaing to force Ukraine to investigate the Bidens Ukraine business dealings through witholding aid comes clean.

Yes, Trump is on Putin's side, yes, he wants Ukraine to fail and yes, Putin did interfere in the 2020 election.

The Trump apologists and appeaseniks can ggf.

 

[AngryAnt]

Of course the appeaseniks never want to call it "appeasement". Duh.

 

[Willo]

 

[Willo]

You think I'm all over the shop!!

Yep. It started with talking about Ukraine. Then it was Germany, Israel, Crimea and Donbas.
You’re better off sticking to the one topic.

You claimed that Ukraine and the west needed to negotiate with Russia.

I didn’t claim anything. And I didn’t just say the west. I included China as well.
I said before the war started there were rumblings about Russia invading. Mobilising troops, armour etc close to the border.
That’s when Ukraine and Permanent Members of the Security Council needed to sit down together with Russia.

I call it appeasement, you call it negotiation.

You can call it whatever you like and you’d be wrong.
They’re two completely different terms with different outcomes.

I'll make it really easy for you:

That’s so very thoughtful of you

In your opinion, what do you think Russias demands would have been in their "negotiation?

How would I know what their thinking is or what their real reason for invading Ukraine was?
You’d need to know that first and foremost.
And if I did it would only be conjecture and my opinion. Which counts for zero.


There is conjecture that the reason for Putin ordering the invasion was because of the concern Ukraine was contemplating joining NATO. Then following on from that, the perception that NATO missiles would be based in Ukraine.
Although I don’t know how much difference that would make apart from flight times to Russian targets.

Whether that was the main reason who knows?

Another reason is that Putins ego and his whole persona of being Russia’s “strongman” was to bring Ukraine back into the fold of Mother Russia. Which is what I believe the main reason. But that’s my opinion only.


How to negotiate with him? If you could. Well I’m sure there are wiser heads in State Departments around the world and some people who have a personal relationship with him.

 

[mrposhman]

Yep. It started with talking about Ukraine. Then it was Germany, Israel, Crimea and Donbas.
You’re better off sticking to the one topic.

I didn’t claim anything. And I didn’t just say the west. I included China as well.
I said before the war started there were rumblings about Russia invading. Mobilising troops, armour etc close to the border.
That’s when Ukraine and Permanent Members of the Security Council needed to sit down together with Russia.


You can call it whatever you like and you’d be wrong.
They’re two completely different terms with different outcomes.


That’s so very thoughtful of you

How would I know what their thinking is or what their real reason for invading Ukraine was?
You’d need to know that first and foremost.
And if I did it would only be conjecture and my opinion. Which counts for zero.


There is conjecture that the reason for Putin ordering the invasion was because of the concern Ukraine was contemplating joining NATO. Then following on from that, the perception that NATO missiles would be based in Ukraine.
Although I don’t know how much difference that would make apart from flight times to Russian targets.

Whether that was the main reason who knows?

Another reason is that Putins ego and his whole persona of being Russia’s “strongman” was to bring Ukraine back into the fold of Mother Russia. Which is what I believe the main reason. But that’s my opinion only.


How to negotiate with him? If you could. Well I’m sure there are wiser heads in State Departments around the world and some people who have a personal relationship with him.

Ok hang on let me get this right.

So Putin was on the border and you say that the West / China / Ukraine needed to "negotiate" with him (we can't call it appeasement because we don't know what he wants), then say that your suspicion (like most) is that Putin wanted to unite the Motherland , which would have meant that 1 of his demands in your "negotiation" would have been the validation of the elections in the Donbas and Crimea (you can claim that you don't know what he would have wanted but then say thats what you suspected anyway as above - but lets not call it appeasement right).

Guess what, this is continue to follow the appeasement outcome with the Nazis before WW2. Ie. we promise we'll just take the Sudenteland, but then when you stop watching and you celebrate your "negotiation", well lets just take the rest, like the Nazis did with Czechslovakia right? Then what, Ukraine falls, and we the world waits until what, they invade Estonia next? Romania? Latvia?

 

[Willo]

Devils Advocate.
No sense in trying to start any negotiations now as Putin wouldn’t be interested. And even if he was he wouldn’t adhere to any part of it anyway.
So thats out of the question.

Appeasement won’t work either, so no use trying that.

Where does that leave the situation? The status quo just continues on or….

 

[Willo]

Ok hang on let me get this right.

So Putin was on the border and you say that the West / China / Ukraine needed to "negotiate" with him (we can't call it appeasement because we don't know what he wants), then say that your suspicion (like most) is that Putin wanted to unite the Motherland , which would have meant that 1 of his demands in your "negotiation" would have been the validation of the elections in the Donbas and Crimea (you can claim that you don't know what he would have wanted but then say thats what you suspected anyway as above - but lets not call it appeasement right).

Guess what, this is continue to follow the appeasement outcome with the Nazis before WW2. Ie. we promise we'll just take the Sudenteland, but then when you stop watching and you celebrate your "negotiation", well lets just take the rest, like the Nazis did with Czechslovakia right? Then what, Ukraine falls, and we the world waits until what, they invade Estonia next? Romania? Latvia?

Oh FFS.
.

 

[Willo]

Biden announces billions to help Ukraine 'win this war' — PerthNow

A major new US commitment includes a precision medium-range missile among billions of dollars in assistance to help Ukraine "win this war".

apple.news

 

[Tigaman]

Putin has bitten off more than he could chew. War was going to be over in six weeks. Putin is a despot holding his Russia to ransom. Since he came to reign how many US Presidents ,UK PM's ,Australian PM's ?. How many Russian Opposition Leaders are still kicking. None. Putin will sign a Cease Fire Treaty only on his terms so you do not sign a Treaty with him unless he retreats to his borders before 2000. Russian operatives shot down the Malaysian Airline jet yet he does not put his hand up & say Sorry. Great leader following on the footsteps of former Russian leaders. They will never change so we do not change. If they challenge us we challenge them. If we do not God help us.