Regrets, I've had a few, but then again there's three cups to mention... - Former Tiger Trade Debates

[Long Lost Hernaman]

Sorry, comparing Richmond and Essendon is ridiculous. We're talking about getting fair value for a 23-year-old premiership player—and pick 56 doesn't cut it, to quote Captain Obvious. You could perhaps adjust your thinking towards not realistically being the stone cold loser in every trade, which is what the recent run of Ellis, Higgins, Markov and Butler looks like to me.

So you think it would have been worth walking Butler to the draft and getting northing to prove some kind of point?

I really dont see a stuff up. Honestly, I see us getting less than might appear to be optimal (wearing a Richmond fan's hat) when moving fringe players on. I've already pointed to some of the virtues of helping platers move on. I'll also point to these things:

- B Ellis was a FA who went for a genuinely life changing contract. We couldnt repsonsibly match. Not a trade anyway.

- For every Butler who has some time in the sun at the new club, most don't. Consider C Ellis and Milesy as examples.

- There were also some off field type considerations which informed the Higgins trade.

- I wouldnt begurdge them both to have long and happy careers but the jury is out on whether Markov and Higgins can be consistent senior players, let alone to the standards we want of our starting 22. They are no certainties.

 

[Tortured Tiger]

The Butler and Higgins trades are done and dusted. You win some, you lose some, surely enough words have been said on this topic. Time to move on and look forward, not back.

 

[tigerdell]

What were the alternatives for Richmond?

Butler asked to be traded
Saints did a trading frenzy.
So what did they have to offer?

Obviously its unrealistic to expect pick 6 which became 12 and 18 which were traded for dougal howser and paddy ryder.
They got pick 32 for Joshbruce which then was traded for Zak Jones. imo everyone wouldve chosen jones over butler at that time.
Saints had previously traded away their 2nd round pick.
They had pick 52.
So in the end we got a pick that was the end of 3rd round. Not great but what the buyer had in the wallet.


The 2 other alternatives are we dont trade and keep Butler or he walks to the psd.
If he stays he is a list clogger.
Either way we dont pick Biggie.

Its simplistic to say we traded out a surplus small forward to punt on a tall defender, but that is sound list management strategy. Consistently make those small moves.
I wouldve shifted Caddy for the same logic.

Ps I like Butts and wish he had stayed

 

[Number8]

So you think it would have been worth walking Butler to the draft and getting northing to prove some kind of point?

Where did I say that? There are many other options, including asking St Kilda to cough up a future pick or trade into a better position.

I see us getting less than might appear to be optimal (wearing a Richmond fan's hat) when moving fringe players on

Broken thinking. Success has gone to your head. By definition, a fringe player at a premiership club will get a game at virtually every other club. That's how you value a player; his worth to another side. There is no argument to have here. The guy just came second in the B&F at his new club. The facts say we missed a trick.

the jury is out on whether Markov and Higgins can be consistent senior players, let alone to the standards we want of our starting 22. They are no certainties.

They are both excellent players who held their own at senior level with the best club in the land. Logic says they will be fine contributors for their new clubs.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? It's the clubs who make the trade, not the player. How does he take a risk? If the deal falls through he goes into the draft anyway and history shows almost every player gets to the club they choose in those situations. It doesn't happen often because more often than not clubs try and get players they don't want to new clubs if they can.

Perhaps I'm not being clear: the Richmond administration made a mistake in trading Dan Butler on the basis of being offered pick 56 in return. He should have been offered another contract even it were post the trade period. We'd all seen enough to know his best was tremendous. Whether he'd walk to the draft is speculation—maybe St Kilda's hand would have been forced if they wanted him badly enough.

Someone earlier posted that the Butler trade maybe won't hurt us long term but there is a pattern developing. We are in a golden period and it won't last. We have to hope the club makes the most of it by maximising the returns it gets for good players who just can't regularly force their way into an incredibly good team.

Ps I like Butts and wish he had stayed

Yeah, me too. Smart player, great tackler, speedy and outstanding goal sense.

 

[Ghost of 29]

On Butler, he was ordinary bordering on putrid in most of senior games in 2019. I clearly remember his cat like efforts v Port in our big win in Adelaide in 2019. He was petrified to get involved and crapped himself when about to be tackled. I’m glad he is doing well at Saints but was surplus at Tigers.

 

[Number8]

I definitely think there's merit in the argument he could have been re-signed. Where I think it would break down is we wouldn't have been anywhere near the terms offered by St Kilda in tenure or TPP commitment, so he likely would have walked to the PSD knowing no other club would want him with those terms either.

Of course, had we offered him a deal he may well have wanted to stay badly enough to sacrifice a better deal.

Yep, it's a philosophical matter and we'll likely never know how he might have reacted had the trade not been done.

That said, he did only receive a two-year deal and, some other posters have said, a modest wage from St Kilda.

I wonder who will be next in line to 'leave for more opportunities'?

Will it be Jack Ross? Maybe Jake Aarts? Or CCJ?

Whoever it is, I hope we don't make the same mistake we made with Butler.

 

[Jonesracing82]

I would've kept Markov and got rid of others.
He knows our style and when played he played well.
Not sure why our players are worthless in the open market.
25 year old kid in his prime for a 3rd rounder. No good

We just aren't complete A**holes to deal with.

 

[turk-d-tiger]

Whilst i was disappointing with the pick we received for Butler at the time and thought a #30's was more his true value he really only had 1 decent year at Richmond and that was 2017.

he arrived injured and 1819 years was barely getting a game and was on the fringes with another year similar would have been delisted
But if we had a pick in the 30's i would have wanted Ralpsmith with that pick which we got with a later selection any way.

It pretty much became Dan Butler for Bigoa Nyuon trade who the Saints rated highly as their academy kid and let him slip to us as a thank you when they could have taken him off us with a later pick by matching.

I think alot of people are going to be surprised with Bigoa Nyuon in 2 years time with more development. He has just about everything thats needed to play in todays game.

197/198cm elite speed and agility with a great leap and he could in 2 years time become our Dylan Grimes replacement

 

[The_General]

The fact is, he was always going to make St Kilda better.

If this is the reason why trade values should be higher, every pick trade needs a first rounder.

Read this carefully and slowly. I'm not going to bold or underline anything to stress the importance of my point.

No club makes a trade for a player and doesn't expect their club to get better as a result.

That's not a criterion ever. "No Blair, we're giving you a 3rd round pick, you guys don't play him, he's got a history of injury, and he's nominated us as his preferred choice."
"Nah sorry mate. He won a premiership a few years ago with us and he's going to make you guys better......so we want a top 25 pick"
See how ridiculous that would sound.

 

[Mr Brightside]

I’m more then happy to admit I got Butler wrong , good to see the young fella going well in his career at the Saints , just like Ellis B not one of my favourite Tiges , however those 2 were integral parts of giving me the best day of my life.

At the end of 2016 Butler was as good as gone until a very good VFL game in the last game of the season basically saved his career , then obviously he and George were reinvented as pressure forwards in the 2017 preseason and they were exceptiona in that role, over the next 2 seasons Butlers form really dropped off IMHO and by the end of 2019 he appeared to have lost all confidence, he was hesitant, fumbly and definitely had lost a yard in pace most likely due to injuries. So with more talented competition coming for his spot I think the trade was a win/win at the time, however no doubt in hindsight the Saints have won the trade easily , id be very surprised if they or Butler thought he would have as good of first season as he did. I think his form may just have dropped of at the end of the season

 

[tigerfan1961]

Sorry, comparing Richmond and Essendon is ridiculous. We're talking about getting fair value for a 23-year-old premiership player—and pick 56 doesn't cut it, to quote Captain Obvious. You could perhaps adjust your thinking towards not realistically being the stone cold loser in every trade, which is what the recent run of Ellis, Higgins, Markov and Butler looks like to me.

Sure, if he wanted to take that risk. Most in that situation don't, of course.

For the love of God, he was 23 when traded with his career ahead of him. You're talking about getting ten years out of a bloke, not the 1-2 Geelong will get out of Smith and Higgins, who are both past their best.

Butler now has 2.5 seasons of elite football on the board, that is a fact. How do you know he won't reach the level of Smith and Higgins? He's looking pretty well placed right now.

You lot know it's OK to acknowledge we stuffed this up, yeah?

Lost me at elite football. He’s a serviceable player who played in a premiership side. You are way way overrating his ability buddy

 

[Number8]

On Butler, he was ordinary bordering on putrid in most of senior games in 2019. I clearly remember his cat like efforts v Port in our big win in Adelaide in 2019. He was petrified to get involved and crapped himself when about to be tackled. I’m glad he is doing well at Saints but was surplus at Tigers.

The problem with this line of thinking is there is a difference between a form slump and player who's simply not up to it.

Butler had proven he could seriously play. No-one questions that, I trust. This line of thinking has Aaron Finch dropped for half a dozen failures with the bat before he comes out and smashes 69 off 44 balls.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Just on Butler's 2019. He only played seven games so that's not a great body of evidence to work with. But what was unique about that set of games is that we lost five of them. Something wasn't working and Butler paid the price. But the reality with small forwards is they rely on players up the ground for their impact to be maximised. We weren't playing well as a team and, arguably, Butler's output suffered because of it.

People are also too dismissive of Butler's 2018. He was absolutely flying before the ankle injury.

His four years of senior footy have yielded 2.5 seasons of elite output.

If this is the reason why trade values should be higher, every pick trade needs a first rounder.

Read this carefully and slowly. I'm not going to bold or underline anything to stress the importance of my point.

No club makes a trade for a player and doesn't expect their club to get better as a result.

You've missed the point. Posters bang on about Butler being surplus to needs, not best 22, others have gone past him, and they want to get warm and gushy about how nice we are to other clubs—as though these are the criteria for valuing a trade.

The art of negotiation is to leverage your position to maximum advantage, and that meant recognising St Kilda's glaring need for a player of Butler's type and class. (Carlton, briefly, was in the same boat.)

Put it this way. Imagine you own two homes in Toorak. Logically, you can only really live in one. The other one is 'surplus'. So, rather than negotiating the best price you can get, you decide you don't really need it so you'll sell it to the first bloke that comes along at whatever he can afford to pay for it.

Richmond is not some development ground for other clubs. The wheel will turn and I hope we don't regret undervaluing our fringe players. It's bad business!

"Nah sorry mate. He won a premiership a few years ago with us and he's going to make you guys better......so we want a top 25 pick"
See how ridiculous that would sound.

Huh? Why is that ridiculous? How many premiership players did Hawthorn, Brisbane and Geelong give away for junk picks during their recent golden eras?

• Jed Anderson got Hawthorn pick 15 in 2015
• Shane Mumford got Geelong pick 28 in 2009
• Jason Gram got Brisbane pick 23 in 2003 (on the back of two senior games ... ever)

I can't believe there is even a debate about this. Butler was in the 2020 AA squad and finished above Hill, Ryder, Marshall, Gresham, Billings, Jones, Coffield and Ross in their B&F.

Pick 56 is an indefensible outcome. We lost the trade big time. Deal with it.

 

[TT33]

There seems to be a lot of hand wringing about losing Butler, a player who we'd well & truly replaced even before he left us.
Time to move on

 

[Number8]

Lost me at elite football. He’s a serviceable player who played in a premiership side. You are way way overrating his ability buddy

If making the AA squad isn't an indicator of elite ability, I can't help you pal.

 

[bairdy380]

Markov will be one we regret, imho

 

[TigerFurious]

Huh? Why is that ridiculous? How many premiership players did Hawthorn, Brisbane and Geelong give away for junk picks during their recent golden eras?

• Jed Anderson got Hawthorn pick 15 in 2015
• Shane Mumford got Geelong pick 28 in 2009
• Jason Gram got Brisbane pick 23 in 2003 (on the back of two senior games ... ever)

I can't believe there is even a debate about this. Butler was in the 2020 AA squad and finished above Hill, Ryder, Marshall, Gresham, Billings, Jones, Coffield and Ross in their B&F.

Pick 56 is an indefensible outcome. We lost the trade big time. Deal with it.

Anderson was contracted when traded. Mumford, a ruckman, went to Sydney on significantly more money and a longer contract than Geelong were offering. And as for Gram, he was pick 19 only two years prior to being traded to St Kilda. High picks tend to retain most of their value at least a couple of years from being drafted (see Higgins).

None of those players are comparable to Butler at the time he was traded. St Kilda just got lucky.

 

[zippadeee]

The problem with this line of thinking is there is a difference between a form slump and player who's simply not up to it.

Butler had proven he could seriously play. No-one questions that, I trust. This line of thinking has Aaron Finch dropped for half a dozen failures with the bat before he comes out and smashes 69 off 44 balls.

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Just on Butler's 2019. He only played seven games so that's not a great body of evidence to work with. But what was unique about that set of games is that we lost five of them. Something wasn't working and Butler paid the price. But the reality with small forwards is they rely on players up the ground for their impact to be maximised. We weren't playing well as a team and, arguably, Butler's output suffered because of it.

People are also too dismissive of Butler's 2018. He was absolutely flying before the ankle injury.

His four years of senior footy have yielded 2.5 seasons of elite output.

You've missed the point. Posters bang on about Butler being surplus to needs, not best 22, others have gone past him, and they want to get warm and gushy about how nice we are to other clubs—as though these are the criteria for valuing a trade.

The art of negotiation is to leverage your position to maximum advantage, and that meant recognising St Kilda's glaring need for a player of Butler's type and class. (Carlton, briefly, was in the same boat.)

Put it this way. Imagine you own two homes in Toorak. Logically, you can only really live in one. The other one is 'surplus'. So, rather than negotiating the best price you can get, you decide you don't really need it so you'll sell it to the first bloke that comes along at whatever he can afford to pay for it.

Richmond is not some development ground for other clubs. The wheel will turn and I hope we don't regret undervaluing our fringe players. It's bad business!

Huh? Why is that ridiculous? How many premiership players did Hawthorn, Brisbane and Geelong give away for junk picks during their recent golden eras?

• Jed Anderson got Hawthorn pick 15 in 2015
• Shane Mumford got Geelong pick 28 in 2009
• Jason Gram got Brisbane pick 23 in 2003 (on the back of two senior games ... ever)

I can't believe there is even a debate about this. Butler was in the 2020 AA squad and finished above Hill, Ryder, Marshall, Gresham, Billings, Jones, Coffield and Ross in their B&F.

Pick 56 is an indefensible outcome. We lost the trade big time. Deal with it.

What did Stkilda give up for lovett?
What did we give up for Yarran?
I totally agree, not being in the best 22 at Richmond dosent mean trade them out for nothing.

 

[Number8]

Anderson was contracted when traded. Mumford, a ruckman, went to Sydney on significantly more money and a longer contract than Geelong were offering. And as for Gram, he was pick 19 only two years prior to being traded to St Kilda. High picks tend to retain most of their value at least a couple of years from being drafted (see Higgins).

None of those players are comparable to Butler at the time he was traded. St Kilda just got lucky.

They are entirely comparable on the basis none was considered best 22 at their previous club.

 

[Number8]

Markov will be one we regret, imho

Jeebus, let me get over Butler first

 

[Number8]

I still don't understand how anyone proposes we could have received a better deal for Butler without signing him for another year.

To me that would be an exceptionally risky list management strategy.

Too many variables and unknowns to unpack the matter fully but out-of-contract players are traded all the time. And when trades can't be facilitated, players can always be re-signed. With a bit of thought and creativity, gifting St Kilda a competitive advantage could have been avoided.