Regrets, I've had a few, but then again there's three cups to mention... - Former Tiger Trade Debates

[Number8]

I did with Butler. Wasn’t best 25 at the time. Hindsight a wonderful thing.
Don’t believe we did with Ellis, Markov or Higgins.

I thought the compensation for Butler was disgraceful and said so at the time.

For all the counterarguments, making an opponent stronger must be balanced with a commensurate return.

Butler was a premiership player at an elite club coming off a tricky injury. The apparent surprise at how well he played last year is revisionism at its best. Butler was always going to make St Kilda better, just like he had made Richmond better.

The only justification for it was to help the young man get regular senior footy, an attitude that is fine while you're flying.

In my view, we should be banking as many quality draft picks as possible, whether that be for kids or free agents.

The AFL's equalisation measures make it hard enough to stay up without giving away good players for no real return.

 

[Dont Argue]

I thought the compensation for Butler was disgraceful and said so at the time.

For all the counterarguments, making an opponent stronger must be balanced with a commensurate return.

Butler was a premiership player at an elite club coming off a tricky injury. The apparent surprise at how well he played last year is revisionism at its best. Butler was always going to make St Kilda better, just like he had made Richmond better.

With all due respect, think you’d be alone in suggesting it was no surprise that a player who cannot break into our team due to competitive deficiencies goes on to AA selection the following year!

I imagine you’d be suitably outraged then, letting Higgins go after an acquired brain injury. Will definitely make Saints stronger next year. Might even make Captain of the State Team

 

[Tigers of Old]

I thought the compensation for Butler was disgraceful and said so at the time.

For all the counterarguments, making an opponent stronger must be balanced with a commensurate return.

Butler was a premiership player at an elite club coming off a tricky injury. The apparent surprise at how well he played last year is revisionism at its best. Butler was always going to make St Kilda better, just like he had made Richmond better.

The only justification for it was to help the young man get regular senior footy, an attitude that is fine while you're flying.

Well said. I too thought we got unders for Butler. An embarrassment of riches shouldn't see you giving Premiership quality players away.

 

[leon]

I thought the compensation for Butler was disgraceful and said so at the time.

For all the counterarguments, making an opponent stronger must be balanced with a commensurate return.

Butler was a premiership player at an elite club coming off a tricky injury. The apparent surprise at how well he played last year is revisionism at its best. Butler was always going to make St Kilda better, just like he had made Richmond better.

The only justification for it was to help the young man get regular senior footy, an attitude that is fine while you're flying.

In my view, we should be banking as many quality draft picks as possible, whether that be for kids or free agents.

The AFL's equalisation measures make it hard enough to stay up without giving away good players for no real return.

Well-said. Butler played a real part in taking Saints into being a finals contender and who knows how much closer they might have got with a fit Ryder included. They'll be up and about this year too.

 

[TigerFurious]

Sharron Wellingham pick 17, dud
Chris Dawes pick 20 & 47, king dud
Paul Seedsman pick 32
Nathan Freedman 2nd round pick
James Aish pick 26 + 2nd rounder

Pretty sure Seedsman was part of a 3-way deal and not a straight swap for pick 32. The others (apart from Freeman) got significantly better deals at their new club and contract size is the biggest factor by a long way in determining a players trade value.

Butler moved to the saints on a 2 year deal worth only marginally more than base pay hence the 4th round pick.

 

[zippadeee]

Pretty sure Seedsman was part of a 3-way deal and not a straight swap for pick 32. The others (apart from Freeman) got significantly better deals at their new club and contract size is the biggest factor by a long way in determining a players trade value.

Butler moved to the saints on a 2 year deal worth only marginally more than base pay hence the 4th round pick.

Trades aren't worked out by wages and years. They can be traded for pick 1 and could be on a 1 year deal.
They weren't free agents.
Wellingham pick 17, he wasn't worth pick 71

 

[Mr Brightside]

Well said. I too thought we got unders for Butler. An embarrassment of riches shouldn't see you giving Premiership quality players away.

Yep said the same, was absolutely disgusted in what we got for my boy Dan

 

[Number8]

Butler moved to the saints on a 2 year deal worth only marginally more than base pay hence the 4th round pick.

Not sure I understand the logic and I can't see how those two things are connected. Geelong got Shaun Higgins in on a 2-year deal for pick 30 last trade period. Isaac Smith earned a 2-year deal at Geelong and they paid with pick 42.

Furthermore, Higgins is 32 and Smith is 31. When Butler was traded, he was 23 and we got pick 56.

Those numbers do not add up.

 

[zippadeee]

Not sure I understand the logic and I can't see how those two things are connected. Geelong got Shaun Higgins in on a 2-year deal for pick 30 last trade period. Isaac Smith earned a 2-year deal at Geelong and they paid with pick 42.

Furthermore, Higgins is 32 and Smith is 31. When Butler was traded, he was 23 and we got pick 56.

Those numbers do not add up.

We just get reamed or we are really bad at trading.
I cannot remember a trade that we got, that was more then original draft pick.
Higgins pick 17 for pick 17.
Ellis first rounder, AFL compo pick 324.
Bulter was a premiership player and Stkilda picked him up for nothing. He wasnt 43 he was 23.

 

[zippadeee]

Exactly, people are either incredibly naive or deliberately mischievous on the value of trades.

It's not just a matter of player x plays football better than player y so they are worth more in a trade. A trade depends on a multitude of factors, where the player sits in their current team, , what type of player they are, what their contract is like, whether or not their current team need them, how their TPP looks, how badly the new team want them, what their draft hand looks like, what the draft prospects look like for that year and so on and so on.

It's impossible to compare apples and apples.

Usually 90% of the time a club wants a player because of a hole in their side. Therefore they pay overs to get them.
The Dud Hill cost stkilda 2 first rounders. Bulter on the wing or at half forward would provide the same result.
Markov might've not been best 22 at Richmond but he would be Best 22 at 10 or 12 other clubs.
4th rounder, isn't good enough.
All these freebies might now go without any damage, but we arent going to be top 4 for the next 10 years.
We shouldve stood our ground with stkilda for Higgins, even letting him go into the pre-season to prove we arent push overs when it comes to trading.
Collingwood during 2010-2015 were getting gold for the exact same types.
Wellingham, Freeman, Kennedy, Obrein, Dawes, Seedsman, even their 3 best midfielder got them 2 first rounders and a player (Beams).

 

[Number8]

It's not just a matter of player x plays football better than player y so they are worth more in a trade. A trade depends on a multitude of factors, where the player sits in their current team, , what type of player they are, what their contract is like, whether or not their current team need them, how their TPP looks, how badly the new team want them, what their draft hand looks like, what the draft prospects look like for that year and so on and so on.

Only one thing matters by the time you get to the negotiation table: will the player make them a better side?

We were not compelled to trade Butler. We held the whip hand—he was our player. Nothing happens unless we get a fair return.

Nek minit ...

 

[TigerFurious]

At the time of trading. Again, AT THE TIME OF TRADING, Butler was:
- in his 5th year on the list
- not currently in the senior side.
- was competing for a small forward role against Castagna, Rioli, Bolton and Stack (coming off his first season and looking like a real prospect)
- had played one, yes ONE, good season in 5 years at the club.
- was uncontracted.
- St Kilda were the only club to offer Butler a deal and it was for 2 years at barely more than minimum wage.

We didn’t get screwed on the deal, St Kilda just got lucky, that’s all.

 

[Number8]

We didn’t get screwed on the deal, St Kilda just got lucky, that’s all.

Blind Freddy could see it was a bad deal and we didn't need hindsight to tell us.

The fact is, he was always going to make St Kilda better. Which is why bleating about Richmond having a surfeit of small forwards is irrelevant. At the negotiation table, it's about leveraging the need of the other party. Never give a sucker an even break.

Our recruiting has been incredible these past few years. The more 'fringe' players we give away, the less that record means.

While our fantastic club is well and truly in credit when it comes to making smart decisions in recent times, we got this one wrong.

 

[daniel30]

Let's see what Butler does in his second year now as with us he was fantastic when we won the flag and then got injured and looked very average at best and lazy.In the finals with saints went missing.Markov had improved, but make mo mistake he was no Houli replacement.

 

[Long Lost Hernaman]

Blind Freddy could see it was a bad deal and we didn't need hindsight to tell us.

The fact is, he was always going to make St Kilda better. Which is why bleating about Richmond having a surfeit of small forwards is irrelevant. At the negotiation table, it's about leveraging the need of the other party. Never give a sucker an even break.

Our recruiting has been incredible these past few years. The more 'fringe' players we give away, the less that record means.

While our fantastic club is well and truly in credit when it comes to making smart decisions in recent times, we got this one wrong.

There was only one bidder. A single bidder sets the price. We either accept it or keep a player who our footy management did not consider to be best 22 and not a selection priority. He gets maybe 6 games a year, stagnates further and ends up unhappy. Lose for the player, lose for the club.

IMO one needs to see the bigger picture - its more than the individual trade deal. Destination clubs are more than just winning flags, its about looking after people. Sometimes that means helping them get to another club. Good for culture, good for attracting high end talent from other clubs, who see that the club doesnt treat players like cattle. You reckon that didnt occur to Prestia and Lynch when they considered where to go?

And you can't realistically expect to be the dominant victor in every trade and shouldnt try. If you want to see the consequences of that approach look at Essendon.

 

[tigerfan1961]

Not sure I understand the logic and I can't see how those two things are connected. Geelong got Shaun Higgins in on a 2-year deal for pick 30 last trade period. Isaac Smith earned a 2-year deal at Geelong and they paid with pick 42.

Furthermore, Higgins is 32 and Smith is 31. When Butler was traded, he was 23 and we got pick 56.

Those numbers do not add up.

Butler was nowhere near the level of the others mentioned. I wasn’t unhappy to see him leave as he was poor every time he played in the seniors

 

[Long Lost Hernaman]

LOL, spelt differently , Plugger we used to call him, top bloke, him & Kamdyn used to live around the corner from me & used to see a fair bit of them

Plugger was definitely punching above his weight if you know what I mean

I know what you mean Taz.

He had nice skills. I remember watching him in the twos thinking/hoping he might have a good senior career. Hope life has treated him well.

 

[tigerfan1961]

Only one thing matters by the time you get to the negotiation table: will the player make them a better side?

We were not compelled to trade Butler. We held the whip hand—he was our player. Nothing happens unless we get a fair return.

Nek minit ...

Except he was out of contract

 

[TigerMasochist]

Not sure I understand the logic and I can't see how those two things are connected. Geelong got Shaun Higgins in on a 2-year deal for pick 30 last trade period. Isaac Smith earned a 2-year deal at Geelong and they paid with pick 42.

Furthermore, Higgins is 32 and Smith is 31. When Butler was traded, he was 23 and we got pick 56.

Those numbers do not add up.

Higgins and Smith both premium quality experienced players who were regularly playing senior footy for their existing clubs. Geezer had one year 2017 where he played a quality small forward role. 2018 / 2019 he went backwards at a great rate of knots n was barely performing the few times he got senior games.
Trading out to the Aints might have been the perfect spur Geezer needed to resurrect his career. Might also mean a lot more clubs pay closer attention to his game this year n he tapers off again.

Reckon maybe the Aints got lucky ( it happens ) n maybe the Moggies payed overs in getting a couple of banged up old pensioners who perhaps have only a half to one decent season left in them.

 

[Number8]

And you can't realistically expect to be the dominant victor in every trade and shouldnt try. If you want to see the consequences of that approach look at Essendon.

Sorry, comparing Richmond and Essendon is ridiculous. We're talking about getting fair value for a 23-year-old premiership player—and pick 56 doesn't cut it, to quote Captain Obvious. You could perhaps adjust your thinking towards not realistically being the stone cold loser in every trade, which is what the recent run of Ellis, Higgins, Markov and Butler looks like to me.

If we didn't trade him, he could go to St Kilda via the draft for nothing.

Sure, if he wanted to take that risk. Most in that situation don't, of course.

Butler was nowhere near the level of the others mentioned.

For the love of God, he was 23 when traded with his career ahead of him. You're talking about getting ten years out of a bloke, not the 1-2 Geelong will get out of Smith and Higgins, who are both past their best.

Butler now has 2.5 seasons of elite football on the board, that is a fact. How do you know he won't reach the level of Smith and Higgins? He's looking pretty well placed right now.

You lot know it's OK to acknowledge we stuffed this up, yeah?