Palestine and Israel

[geoffryprettyboy]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Both the Gaza & Lebanese govts say that they are not in possession of the 3 Israeli soldiers.
So who does the Israeli govt negotiate with?

Fair enough, by the sounds of it, it seems that negotiating with hard line extremists is a waste of time, but what's happened to protocol and that is discussing the matter with a meeting in the UN?

I'll be very interested what stance the UN will have, if any, on Isreal's invasion of Lebanon.  Will they condone it or will they give the green flag for invasion to justify the soldiers who have been kidnapped?  There will be a massive death toll of innocent civilians for 3 soldiers, a bit harsh you might say, but where there is a will there is a way, but in this case it is a war of pride versus dignity.

The shear act of power being portrayed by the Isreali defence by crossing the Lebanese border (land & sea) is just going to turn out to be a display of pride and there will be no resolution (its not as if there was ever any resolution in the first place).

 

[pahoffm]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Yes, this maybe an aside, but a lesson in Scottish history is enlightening.
I have some old friends who were descendents of the La Mont clan. The story of the demise of the La Mont clan I think serves as a lesson that conflicts such as these are decided thus ......

This name used to always be pronounced with the emphasis on the first syllable, not as "La Mont" as it is frequently heard these days. The name is of great antiquity in southern Argyll where the chiefs were known as "Mac Laomain Mor Chomhail Uile" or "The Great MacLamont of all Cowal" - there is an inscription in an old churchyard in Kilmun recording this. The name comes from Logmaor, the Norse word for "law man" or "law giver".

Legend has it that the clan is descended the royal house of Dalriada and from the O'Neill princes of Tyrone in Ireland in the 11th century. But the first firm evidence for the name is in the early 13th century when Laumanus, son of Malcolm, granted land at Kilmun and Kilfinan in Argyll to the monks from Paisley Abbey.

In 1456 John Lamond was the baillie (a magistrate) of Cowal. The seat of the chiefs of the clan (styled the Lamont of Lamont) was at Castle Toward, opposite Rothesay Bay, south of Dunoon. Their territory stretched from the edge of Dumbartonshire to Loch Fyne.

In 1643, Sir James Lamont supported the royalist cause - which brought him into conflict with the powerful Campbells. The Lamonts ravaged some of the Campbell lands but after the defeat of the Marquis of Montrose, the Campbells besieged the Lamont castles. The chief surrendered and although the terms appeared to allow him and his family safe conduct, the Campbells imprisoned the Lamont chief in Dunstaffnage Castle for five years and massacred 200 clansmen, women & children. One tree was said to have carried thirty five bodies from its branches. Elsewhere thirty six men were buried alive. The two castles, Toward & Ascog, were decimated and Sir James was thrown into a dungeon for five years. The clan never recovered from the ravages of the Earl of Argyll. The last chief to live in Cowal was born in 1854. The clan lands were sold in 1893 and the chief emigrated to Australia where the present chief resides. A clan history of the Lamonts by Hector McKechnie was published in 1938.

In more recent times, Norman Lamont was a Chancellor of the Exchequer in Margaret Thatcher's government and famously took the UK out of the European Exchange Rate Mechanism.

The Lamont clan motto is "Ne parcas nec spernas" which means "Neither spare nor dispose".

Surnames regarded as septs (sub-branch) of the Lamont clan include Black, Blake, Brown, Burdon, Clement, Lamb, Lambie, Lammond, Lamondson, Landers, Lemond, Limond, Limont, Lucas, Luke, MacClymont, MacGilledon, MacLamond, MacLucas, MacLymont, MacPatrick, Meikleham, Munn, Patrick, Toward, Turner, White, Whyte.

http://www.rampantscotland.com/clans/blclanlamont.htm
http://www.scotclans.com/clans/Lamont/history.html
http://www.myclan.com/clans/Lamont_62/default.php

The good part of the story.

On the cusp of East Perth parkland surrounded by flashy real estate sits the most grown-up dining room of the Lamont clan's three restaurants. The past year has seen the restauranteur/author/tourism impresario Kate Lamont shift focus from hands-on cooking to managing the family empire and, frankly, the food at these sophisticate digs has never been better.

Lamont's East Perth
11 Brown St, East Perth
Telephone 08 9202 1566

Breakfast Saturday & Sunday
Lunches Tuesday to Sunday
Dinners Wednesday to Saturday

 

[jayfox]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

One more thing, if someone was given a bit of land (with higher authority of course) and in time they spread out slowly and crept over their boundary and built houses, and continued to spread moving right out their intial treaty of land and continued to acquire land everyone would say that's unfair wouldn't that be right? I reckon the UN are to blame just as much as the Americans who turn a blind eye to all what is happening in the gaza strip.

This spreading out from the initial land given was due to the 6 day war GPB. This was a war between the Arab nations, who did not recognise Israel as an Independant state, and Israel. The Arab nations rose against Israel as one and were soundly beaten in 6 days. Israel not only protected their existing land but also claimed the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights. You can hardly blame them for this as it was the spoils of war. Had the Arab nations not unified in an attempt to destroy Israel that land would all still be in the hands of the original owners.

By the way, dare I say it but all of this middle east tension, along with many other current world events, are all predicted in The Bible. It is scary how many Biblical predictions of the 'End Times' are occuring within our lifetime.

 

[WesternTiger]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Doesn’t help when you have Christian extremists running the US JF ???

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

This was the deal...sound fair to you?  ::

Corporal Gilad Shalit, a tank gunner, is seized by Palestinian gunmen and spirited into Gaza. Two other soldiers and two gunmen are killed in the clash. Shalit's captors demand that Israel release more than 1,000 Palestinian security prisoners. Israel refuses and launches a sweep of Gaza.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israels-hostage-crises/2006/07/12/1152637737804.html

a critical mass of palestinians are all on the same page and hence the escalated violence.

as i said i dont condone suicide bombing but when you are fighting an army of unlimited resources and US supplied technology throwing stones doesn't really cut it, its all they have.

they did request 100 prisoners, so what. thats why its called negotiation. dismissing them as terrorists and refusing to negotiate with them is hypocrytical as they recognise them enough to believe they act on behalf of a government/ sovereign state to see their kidnappings as an act of war.

they cant have it both ways. are they terrorists or acting on behalf of their respective ruling governments?

 

[jayfox]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

a critical mass of palestinians are all on the same page and hence the escalated violence.

as i said i dont condone suicide bombing but when you are fighting an army of unlimited resources and US supplied technology throwing stones doesn't really cut it, its all they have.

they did request 100 prisoners, so what. thats why its called negotiation. dismissing them as terrorists and refusing to negotiate with them is hypocrytical as they recognise them enough to believe they act on behalf of a government/ sovereign state to see their kidnappings as an act of war.

they cant have it both ways. are they terrorists or acting on behalf of their respective ruling governments?

It sounds like you are condoning the kidnapping LbTiger. Surely that is not the case? And why are 2 Israeli lives supposedly worth 1000 Arab ones?

 

[WesternTiger]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

How about you open your eyes Liverpool re. the Yanks  :

Check out the doco Dirty War that was on SBS tonight or check the link below to the discussion forum.

http://www8.sbs.com.au/saforum/viewtopic.php?t=102

 

[jayfox]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Doesn’t help when you have Christian extremists running the US JF ???

Regardless of what you think of the US leadership you shouldn't judge the religion by the people who claim to follow it. Judge Christianity by what is written in the Bible alone. Jesus taught us to love one another as ourselves and to turn the other cheek. I would love for people to read the Biblical Prophecies that were written 2000 years ago and are coming true today. It is an absolutely amazing eye-opener! Anyhow, I won't go on about it but people can PM me if they want anymore info.

 

[jayfox]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

How about you open your eyes Liverpool re. the Yanks :

Check out the doco Dirty War that was on SBS tonight or check the link below to the discussion forum.

http://www8.sbs.com.au/saforum/viewtopic.php?t=102

The Yanks are certainly not perfect but can you imagine if the Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians or Iranians were the major world superpower or even worse if the Germans and Japanese had won the war. You'd be praying that the US were in control.

 

[WesternTiger]

Re: Not Good News From Israel


It sounds like you are condoning the kidnapping LbTiger. Surely that is not the case? And why are 2 Israeli lives supposedly worth 1000 Arab ones?

Are two Israeli lives worth the 22 inoccent people killed last night as the result of Israeli strikes in Lebanon?

 

[jayfox]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

Are two Israeli lives worth the 22 inoccent people killed last night as the result of Israeli strikes in Lebanon?

You mean the 22 innocent people who wouldn't have been killed if the 2 Israeli's weren't kidnapped?

 

[WesternTiger]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

The Yanks are certainly not perfect but can you imagine if the Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians or Iranians were the major world superpower or even worse if the Germans and Japanese had won the war. You'd be praying that the US were in control.

JF the world was a very different place 50 or even 20 years ago.

Even going back 15 years ago we were living in a very stable political environment. The rise of the neo conservatives in the US however changed that!

I suggest you read a book call Future Tense: Coming World Order by Gwynne Dyer

 

[WesternTiger]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

You mean the 22 innocent people who wouldn't have been killed if the 2 Israeli's weren't kidnapped?

There were other avenues for the Israeli's to take

 

[jayfox]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

JF the world was a very different place 50 or even 20 years ago.

Even going back 15 years ago we were living in a very stable political environment. The rise of the neo conservatives in the US however changed that!

I suggest you read a book call Future Tense: Coming World Order by Gwynne Dyer

The point still stands. If the Japanese or Germans had won the war we wouldn't have the freedom we enjoy right now.
Perhaps I will look into your book. I suggest you read a book called The Bible and if you are interested in World Events, get a good commentary and read Revelation.

 

[jayfox]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

There were other avenues for the Israeli's to take

You are justifying a kidnapping.

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

It sounds like you are condoning the kidnapping LbTiger. Surely that is not the case? And why are 2 Israeli lives supposedly worth 1000 Arab ones?

Are two Israeli lives worth the 22 inoccent people killed last night as the result of Israeli strikes in Lebanon?

You mean the 22 innocent people who wouldn't have been killed if the 2 Israeli's weren't kidnapped?

There were other avenues for the Israeli's to take

You are justifying a kidnapping.

no i dont think he is, hes looking at a whole series of events that took place and weighing up both sides of the story

you are also assuming the 2 israelis are dead. they are not.

 

[WesternTiger]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

The point still stands. If the Japanese or Germans had won the war we wouldn't have the freedom we enjoy right now.
Perhaps I will look into your book. I suggest you read a book called The Bible and if you are interested in World Events, get a good commentary and read Revelation.

No thanks JF Im not into reading fiction!

And no the point does not stand. The US Government and its agenda was a lot different 50 years ago and as recent as 15 years ago. If you want to talk about "what ifs" well what if the UN had not voted to give the Jewish people Palestine in 1948!

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

a good well balanced article

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/beirut-skies-burn-with-memories/2006/07/14/1152637869578.html

 

[Lidsand]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2006/07/syria_is_bigges.php

Syria is biggest beneficiary of Israeli terror in Lebanon
Friday, 14 July, 2006 @ 11:49 AM


Beirut- The hotels in Lebanon were fully booked for the entire summer, but Israeli terrorizing of Lebanon has forced the tourists to flee to Syria, resulting in the biggest boom for Syria's tourist industry.


This is the biggest irony of this war on Lebanon. While Syria is the main supporter of Hezbollah, Lebanon has been blamed by Israel for the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers.

Lebanon's infrastructure has been completely devastated by the Israeli terror. Using American made jets:

. Israel has bombarded most of the bridges in Lebanon.
. Israel has blockaded Lebanon completely. The only exit is Syria.
. Israel has bombarded all the airports in Lebanon and all flights in and out of Beirut have been cancelled. Even the fuel tanks at Beirut's only international airport were bombarded and set on fire.

The silence of the United States raises a lot of questions. President Bush said Israel has the right to self defense. The question is : What does the bombardment of civilian infrastructure and the killing of over 60 civilians so far has to do with Israeli self defense? The only victim of this terrorizing war so far has been the innocent Lebanese.

The United States has a responsibility to stop this war, since after all Israel is using American made weapons that are strictly for self defense. It doesn’t take a high IQ to conclude that Israeli actions are strictly offensive and the civilians are the only victims so far.

Israel is using the kidnapping as an excuse to destroy Lebanon, the only true democracy in the region. Israel wants to prove to the rest of the world that a multi racial, multi religious society cannot exist in the Middle East, but Lebanon has always proven Israel wrong. It is about time that the civilized world community understand Israeli intensions and stop this blatant aggression against the civilians of Lebanon.

It is about time for the civilized world community to tell Israel , "enough is enough". This state terrorism by Israel will only create more hatred as mothers lose sons and daughters, and brothers and sisters lose their loved ones. If Israel wants peace, its actions in Lebanon send the wrong message to this and future generation of Lebanese.

President Bush is not running for reelections in 2008...so perhaps it is about time he should have the guts to stand up and be counted - by telling Israel "enough is enough".

Every one knows that the Lebanese government has no control over Hezbollah. The government didn’t even know of Hezbollah kidnapping plans, even though they (Hezbollah) are part of the government. Hezbollah is a "state within a state ", thanks to Israel, Iran and Syria.

. Israeli continued occupation of Shebaa farms territory gives Hezbollah an excuse to hold onto its arms.

. Iran's financing of Hezbollah, will allow it to use the organization to achieve its objectives in the region, regardless of the interest of Lebanon and the Lebanese.

. Syria's support to Hezbollah, allows it to use this organization as its card in dealing with Israel. Every time Syria is under pressure, Hezbollah creates a crises of some sort in South Lebanon

But who is the biggest loser in all of this: Lebanon and the innocent Lebanese people. The Lebanese will again have to rebuild their country on their own and accumulate more debt, in addition to the $38 billion they have accumulated so far, in rebuilding their country during the Syrian occupation.

However:

. Israel will now receive more free arms from the United States, thanks to the ongoing deal that has been in effect ever since Israel was created...and the American taxpayers will again have to foot this bill.
. Hezbollah will receive more funding from Iran and the "state within a state" affair will continue. Iran is flush with cash thanks to the high oil prices.
. Syria will come out smelling like a rose. Their economy will again prosper as tourists will be diverted from Beirut to Damascus.

Time for the civilized world to wake up and say: Enough is enough. The innocent Lebanese have suffered already far too much for being squeezed in the middle of this dirty politics. If no action is taken to stop this terror, Lebanon could disintegrate and with it the last democracy in the Middle East will disappear...and president Bush could easily say" So long for democracy in the Arab World".

 

[Anduril]

Re: Not Good News From Israel

"The belief of individuals/groups that they can buy their place in heaven by sending other people to hell is a tragedy of humanity. To be good by controlling oneself is hard; to punish weak, poor or powerless people is easy."

Margaret Redelman