Palestine and Israel

[DavidSSS]

Willo, you can start messing with borders which will cause all sorts of problems and lead to delays. The delays will be seized upon by Israel to just bring the process to a stand still because the status quo suits them.

The simplest solution at the moment is the 1967 borders. They are well defined and everyone knows where they are.

The Israelis currently living within the borders of what would become Palestine, at least in the medium term, would have a choice - move out of what is becoming Palestine, or remain as citizens of Palestine with no right of return to Israel, their choice.

The second state, as I said above, to be administered by the UN for maybe 5 years. In this time civil society needs to be built and then we move to Palestinian Administration depending on the situation. This would give Israel an incentive to not try and split the Palestinians because they know that whatever authority assumes control of Palestine after 5 years they will have to deal with.

You say the Israelis won't accept this, but you suggest that Hamas just surrender and give the hostages back (why would they accept that?). Apart from the fact that this would not stop the destruction in Gaza, why should the Israelis have the only right of refusal? The Palestinians need to have a say in this, for once. In any case, I am not suggesting this be put to the Israel Government, I am saying it gets imposed on Israel as the first step towards a permanent settlement. This requires that the US stop their unconditional support of anything Israel does, but things have to change and the US is the key here. Attitudes in the US are changing, may well have a bearing on the US election result this year, and Israel would be smart to see the winds of change getting stronger and get the best deal they can now. Without the US backing them Israel are far less powerful.

I'll tell you what is not realistic - continuing as we have been for decades. Israel slowly tries to expel the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza but they can't entirely get rid of them. The Palestinians get fed up with living in a ghetto and attack. Then there are responses from both sides, it calms down for a few years, rinse and repeat. This has been unviable, and grossly unfair to the Palestinians who have been left stateless, for decades. A solution needs to be imposed.

DS

 

[Willo]

, you can start messing with borders which will cause all sorts of problems and lead to delays.

Well which borders. The current borders of Gaza and the WB?

The delays will be seized upon by Israel to just bring the process to a stand still because the status quo suits them.

The simplest solution at the moment is the 1967 borders.

Ah so different borders that exist now you mean

They are well defined and everyone knows where they are

It maybe the simplest solution, but I highly doubt Israel would accept that. Regardless of whether they’re well defined and everyone knows where they are, that doesn’t make it workable or anywhere near acceptable.

The Israelis currently living within the borders of what would become Palestine, at least in the medium term, would have a choice - move out of what is becoming Palestine, or remain as citizens of Palestine with no right of return to Israel, their choice.

Sorry, that would never, ever be accepted. How the hell would you ever stop an Israeli returning to Israel? That’s just farcical.

It’s a conundrum. When Israeli families have been inhabiting some of that land for nearly 60 years or more if they were already there. While there would hardly be a Palestinian family that know where it is. Apart from some elderly former inhabitants.

The second state, as I said above, to be administered by the UN for maybe 5 years. In this time civil society needs to be built and then we move to Palestinian Administration depending on the situation. This would give Israel an incentive to not try and split the Palestinians because they know that whatever authority assumes control of Palestine after 5 years they will have to deal with.

I doubt whether the UN has the capacity to govern them. I doubt whether even Palestine would accept that either.
Israel isn’t going to just take their country, society and economy backwards.Thats never going to happen

You say the Israelis won't accept this, but you suggest that Hamas just surrender and give the hostages back (why would they accept that?).

I’m 100% sure they wouldn’t accept this. They’ve already knocked it back
Well maybe because the death toll and destruction in Gaza would stop. If they handed back the hostages and surrendered. How’s that for an incentive?

Apart from the fact that this would not stop the destruction in Gaza, why should the Israelis have the only right of refusal?

Eh? Really? Are you serious with the second sentence? A government wanting innocent kidnapped civilians returned from terrorists.
Geez.

The Palestinians need to have a say in this, for once

Thats the crux of it.
Is Hamas representing the everyday Palestinians? They were elected 20 years ago. Their term of office expired years ago and they won’t hold any elections, just the opposite, they murder any opposition.

So who speaks for the Palestinians. Not Hamas obviously. And the PA isn’t wanted in Gaza. They’ve got bit problems within themselves before they look to sit and negotiate any solutions.
That’s the first thing the Palestinians need to sort out. Who represents them

. In any case, I am not suggesting this be put to the Israel Government, I am saying it gets imposed on Israel as the first step towards a permanent settlement. This requires that the US stop their unconditional support of anything Israel does, but things have to change and the US is the key here. Attitudes in the US are changing, may well have a bearing on the US election result this year, and Israel would be smart to see the winds of change getting stronger and get the best deal they can now. Without the US backing them Israel are far less powerful.

Thats never, ever going to happen. Ever. The US would never impose those conditions on Israel.
Maybe attitudes are changing, or the lefties protests get airplay, but Congress still granted $billions to Israel just now.
I don’t know just how many of these protesters even vote.Or even if the popular vote would swing things. Too many powerful groups and lobbyists in the US

I'll tell you what is not realistic - continuing as we have been for decades. Israel slowly tries to expel the Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza but they can't entirely get rid of them. The Palestinians get fed up with living in a ghetto and attack. Then there are responses from both sides, it calms down for a few years, rinse and repeat.

Yeah for well over 70 years, maybe even over 100 for some people. And the Israelis get fed up being bombed. Tit for tat, the cycle
repeats.
Well they do have a choice. Stay or leave. It mightn’t be palatable but they do have a choice. Many have chosen to leave and make a better life for themselves and their families. Just like millions of others around the world.
Is that playing into Israel’s hands? Probably. But look at the alternative. Would those folk who have been refugees for 76+ years have made different decisions for themselves and families if they knew what their future held in Gaza or the WB? Who knows. No doubt many would stay. But how many others would have left if they had the means.
Well they should have had the means when you consider the $trillions that have gone into Palestinian aid over nearly 80 years

This has been unviable, and grossly unfair to the Palestinians who have been left stateless, for decades. A solution needs to be imposed.

It sure has. Most of it as a result of not wanting to acknowledge the state of Israel in 1948. And then the following conflicts since, with the other Arab states invading Israel and getting their arses kicked.
But as I’ve said previously, it’s the innocent civilians who pay the price. Every time.

I highly doubt anything can be “imposed” on a legitimate state. Regardless of what people think of the state of Israel it is a legitimate, sovereign state.No democratic country would accept any other bodywork state or organisation imposing those conditions on it. It’s a declaration of war. As a student of history and/or world politics I thought you’d be aware of that.
Even if emotions govern your post, you would have to recognise this is a pipedream. Simply unworkable.
Thats my opinion. Not what I think is right or wrong.

I‘m not saying you’re wrong to hope this eventuate, as it been nothing but a nightmare there for decades.
What is workable? I’m not sure

DS

 

[TigerMasochist]

I said months ago that Israel exists, but it exists on Palestinian land, and that is the dilemma facing those who try to resolve this.

There's a bug in this statement that I'm struggling to accept, perhaps through ignorance or perhaps through a lack of care or empathy for either side of this barney.
Simple question as to who's land it actually is in the first place. From the insignificant knowledge n understanding I have. This is supposedly the land that old mate Moses led the Jewish people to way back in the biblical times when the Israeli people finally got free of the Egyptian slavers?????? Dunno what the Israelis did or where they went after they staked their claim to the bit of turf in question, but then over time a mob of nomadic at the time Arabic people decided to stake a claim n settle in whatever was already there n grow a community. Fast track a few hundred years to the end of WW2 n the good burgermeisters of the world decided that the Jews needed their own patch of turf to exist on and recover from the horrors of near obliteration by Dolphy n his mates. Jewish leaders n learned boss cockies pointed out the patch of turf smack bang in the middle of a whole bunch of Muslim Arabic nations and the *smile* has been hitting the fan big time ever since.
You keep time lining things from after WW2 less than 100 years ago David and claiming that the land belongs to the Palestinians, simply modern history n a bit like ticky tacky n faceless twits or whatever, anything more than five minutes old is stale and irrelevant. If we run the history back, was it vacant land or a nomadic wanderers paddock? Did the Jews claim and settle there first n push the nomads out n then they later returned n claimed the turf back?

 

[Willo]

What does it mean when people say that Israel should return to its ‘67 border?
Whatvthey mean is they want israel to remove all the settlements and army bases that they have put in on land they captured from Jordan and Egypt in the six day war. They erroneously call these “borders”. The Rhodes armistice agreement which set the lines after Israel’s war of independence clearly states numerous times that these lines are not borders. When signing the peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan in the 70s and 90s respectively, both of those countries relinquished all claims to the land Israel conquered and there was an understanding with Jordan that Israel would negotiate with the Palestinians to form a homeland for them without defining the exact borders as well. The Palestinians would like to lay claim to all of these lands for their homeland and are refusing to negotiate if the Israelis don’t agree that those lands will be given in their entirety to the Palestinians as a precondition to coming to the table. Israel’s position is that borders will be discussed at the table, but they will not accept any preconditions set by the Palestinians. One needs to keep in mind that although the Palestinian PR has managed to make it look to the world some 70 years later that they previously had some kind of hold over these lands prior to Israel, it is not the case. Since Jordan and Egypt relinquished claim, the land by law has become terra nullus or without sovereignty. As Israel holds it through conquest and agreement with the previous holders of the land, they have the obligation to either annex it or come to an agreement with the people living on it to hand it over to them in an orderly fashion. The Palestinian leadership now has many factions fighting between them for control. Israel would be derelict in just handing it over to one faction and let them fight it out. The Palestinians have to get their own house in order first of all and then show some semblance of wanting peace with Israel and not just to gain land from where to launch attacks on what would be a much weaker stand for the Israelis. If Gaza is any indication since being relinquished by Israel, the controlling factions of the Palestinians are not in that mindset as of yet.


https://www.quora.com/What-does-it-mean-when-people-say-that-Israel-should-return-to-its-67-border

 

[DavidSSS]

TM, the issue is that there were people living in what was Palestine when Israel was created, they were chucked out to create Israel. That is reality. Going back to just after WWII is extremely relevant because that is when Israel was created. On the other hand the Zionists lay claim to Israel on the basis they lived there thousands of years ago. Now, I have no time for claims from the Bible, Torah or any other religious text. But, Israel has existed since 1948 and it is not going anywhere. Hence the problem. Palestinians chucked out of the place where they lived, replaced by Israelis who have lived there now for a few generations. This is one of the main reasons why I have favoured a 1 state solution, but the way to get to 1 state has become more difficult with the current massive increase in hostilities, hence the idea of a 2 state solution leading to 1 state.

Willo, yes, the illegal settlements should be removed. They are illegal settlements on occupied land. Israel knew this when they started building the settlements so they can suck it up. Egypt and Jordan walked away from Gaza and the West Bank for various reasons, but they were always meant to be Palestinian territories. It is correct to say they never had any hold over those lands after 1948 (I can't recall anyone claiming that they were controlled by some sort of Palestinian Authority before 1967, the quote above is making things up on that score), and that too is a travesty. I see no reason why the Palestinians should be expected to leave the place where they have lived for hundreds of years. If a foreign power took over Australia would you expect us all to leave?

The point is that neither side is going to come to any agreement. Israel doesn't want to because the status quo suits them and with their military they reckon they can probably grab the rest, or as much as they want, by just pushing the boundaries slowly. The Palestinians have very little power which means they get offered a crap deal which they can't accept. So, one way or another, either a solution is imposed on both of them or we continue with the shitshow we have seen for decades. The US should really look into this, because they are getting sick of having to deal with the Middle East. Apart from securing oil supplies and exerting influence as a superpower, they don't really want to be so involved in the Middle East. With the rise of China as a rival power it would serve the US' interests to get this resolved and I am sure there are plenty saying this in the US.

I can't see any other alternative at the moment apart from an imposed settlement.

DS

 

[Sintiger]

TM, the issue is that there were people living in what was Palestine when Israel was created, they were chucked out to create Israel. That is reality. Going back to just after WWII is extremely relevant because that is when Israel was created. On the other hand the Zionists lay claim to Israel on the basis they lived there thousands of years ago. Now, I have no time for claims from the Bible, Torah or any other religious text. But, Israel has existed since 1948 and it is not going anywhere. Hence the problem. Palestinians chucked out of the place where they lived, replaced by Israelis who have lived there now for a few generations. This is one of the main reasons why I have favoured a 1 state solution, but the way to get to 1 state has become more difficult with the current massive increase in hostilities, hence the idea of a 2 state solution leading to 1 state.

Willo, yes, the illegal settlements should be removed. They are illegal settlements on occupied land. Israel knew this when they started building the settlements so they can suck it up. Egypt and Jordan walked away from Gaza and the West Bank for various reasons, but they were always meant to be Palestinian territories. It is correct to say they never had any hold over those lands after 1948 (I can't recall anyone claiming that they were controlled by some sort of Palestinian Authority before 1967, the quote above is making things up on that score), and that too is a travesty. I see no reason why the Palestinians should be expected to leave the place where they have lived for hundreds of years. If a foreign power took over Australia would you expect us all to leave?

The point is that neither side is going to come to any agreement. Israel doesn't want to because the status quo suits them and with their military they reckon they can probably grab the rest, or as much as they want, by just pushing the boundaries slowly. The Palestinians have very little power which means they get offered a crap deal which they can't accept. So, one way or another, either a solution is imposed on both of them or we continue with the shitshow we have seen for decades. The US should really look into this, because they are getting sick of having to deal with the Middle East. Apart from securing oil supplies and exerting influence as a superpower, they don't really want to be so involved in the Middle East. With the rise of China as a rival power it would serve the US' interests to get this resolved and I am sure there are plenty saying this in the US.

I can't see any other alternative at the moment apart from an imposed settlement.

DS

This idea that we hear that Palestinians had no rights to the land because there was no nation of Palestine, that it was territory of others is such a crock.
That’s politics and power, their claim is they lived there for many many generations.
There was an entity called Palestine, there are 4 Israeli prime ministers with Palestine on their birth certificates.

 

[Willo]

TM, the issue is that there were people living in what was Palestine when Israel was created, they were chucked out to create Israel

They weren’t “chucked out” at all. They left

. That is reality. Going back to just after WWII is extremely relevant because that is when Israel was created. On the other hand the Zionists lay claim to Israel on the basis they lived there thousands of years ago. Now, I have no time for claims from the Bible, Torah or any other religious text.

Of Course you would‘t. It doesn’t suit your narrative.
But being such a history buff, you’d at least know Jews were living there prior to Roman times. Even back to ancient Egypt. Maybe you don’t go back far enough.

But, Israel has existed since 1948 and it is not going anywhere.

Here We go again

Hence the problem. Palestinians chucked out of the place where they lived, replaced by Israelis who have lived there now for a few generations.

And again

This is one of the main reasons why I have favoured a 1 state solution, but the way to get to 1 state has become more difficult with the current massive increase in hostilities, hence the idea of a 2 state solution leading to 1 state.

yes, Hamas knew what they were doing

Willo, yes, the illegal settlements should be removed.

It’s not going to happen

They are illegal settlements on occupied land. Israel knew this when they started building the settlements so they can suck it up.

Here I was thinking you were serious. But obviously wereheading back to the star with this diatribe

Egypt and Jordan walked away from Gaza and the West Bank for various reasons

Yes, the main reason was they didn’t want anything to do with the Palestinians living there. Gazans were associated with the Muslim Brotherhood who were trying to overthrow the Egyptian government. While those under Jordan had the PLO tried to assassinate KingHussein several times. Both were deemed more of a nuisance than am asset. That’s the reason they gave up control. and they don’t want them back for that very reason

but they were always meant to be Palestinian territories. It is correct to say they never had any hold over those lands after 1948 (I can't recall anyone claiming that they were controlled by some sort of Palestinian Authority before 1967, the quote above is making things up on that score), and that too is a travesty. I see no reason why the Palestinians should be expected to leave the place where they have lived for hundreds of years.

Well in 1948 if the other arab countries hadn’t invaded Israel, the Nakba wouldn’t have happened. Of course that depends on whose version you believe.. or the land granted to Jews by the UN meant that those Palestinians living there were booted out.

If a foreign power took over Australia would you expect us all to leave?

Well no doubt you will leave the country and give your house to an indigenous family.
Native land title ring a bell?

The point is that neither side is going to come to any agreement.

So you now agree with me

Israel doesn't want to because the status quo suits them and with their military they reckon they can probably grab the rest, or as much as they want, by just pushing the boundaries slowly. The Palestinians have very little power which means they get offered a crap deal which they can't accept.

They should have accepted theUN plan in 1947. They didn’t want to share any land with Jews. They wanted all of it. Hence the 1948 war and the arabs trying to eradicate the Jews.
And you think you know history?

So, one way or another, either a solution is imposed on both of them or we continue with the shitshow we have seen for decades. The US should really look into this, because they are getting sick of having to deal with the Middle East. Apart from securing oil supplies and exerting influence as a superpower, they don't really want to be so involved in the Middle East.

That sounds contradictory. One minute you want them to impose a solution. (That won’t be a quick fix) then you say they don’t want to be involved in the Middle East

With the rise of China as a rival power it would serve the US' interests to get this resolved and I am sure there are plenty saying this in the US.

I can't see any other alternative at the moment apart from an imposed settlement.

The US will never impose a settlement. Never.
The UN is useless as a basically as a peacekeeping entity. Not too many countries will offer up personnel to the UN on an “imposed solution” there.

DS

So the reality is, there isn’t a realistic solution now.
Hamas has brought that reality to fruition. Exactly what they want according to their manifesto/charter, call it whatever you like.
Hamas, as many say are the government in Gaza. They don’t want a solution to be found. They just want Israel and every Jew living there eradicated.
So good luck dealing with representatives from a government with that in mind.

 

[Willo]

There's a bug in this statement that I'm struggling to accept, perhaps through ignorance or perhaps through a lack of care or empathy for either side of this barney.
Simple question as to who's land it actually is in the first place. From the insignificant knowledge n understanding I have. This is supposedly the land that old mate Moses led the Jewish people to way back in the biblical times when the Israeli people finally got free of the Egyptian slavers?????? Dunno what the Israelis did or where they went after they staked their claim to the bit of turf in question, but then over time a mob of nomadic at the time Arabic people decided to stake a claim n settle in whatever was already there n grow a community. Fast track a few hundred years to the end of WW2 n the good burgermeisters of the world decided that the Jews needed their own patch of turf to exist on and recover from the horrors of near obliteration by Dolphy n his mates. Jewish leaders n learned boss cockies pointed out the patch of turf smack bang in the middle of a whole bunch of Muslim Arabic nations and the *smile* has been hitting the fan big time ever since.
You keep time lining things from after WW2 less than 100 years ago David and claiming that the land belongs to the Palestinians, simply modern history n a bit like ticky tacky n faceless twits or whatever, anything more than five minutes old is stale and irrelevant. If we run the history back, was it vacant land or a nomadic wanderers paddock? Did the Jews claim and settle there first n push the nomads out n then they later returned n claimed the turf back?

Of course, things change over the course of time. But this historical map, not from the bible, Talmud or Torah, shows the land the Jews occupied nearly 3000 years ago.

 

[Sintiger]

There's a bug in this statement that I'm struggling to accept, perhaps through ignorance or perhaps through a lack of care or empathy for either side of this barney.
Simple question as to who's land it actually is in the first place. From the insignificant knowledge n understanding I have. This is supposedly the land that old mate Moses led the Jewish people to way back in the biblical times when the Israeli people finally got free of the Egyptian slavers?????? Dunno what the Israelis did or where they went after they staked their claim to the bit of turf in question, but then over time a mob of nomadic at the time Arabic people decided to stake a claim n settle in whatever was already there n grow a community. Fast track a few hundred years to the end of WW2 n the good burgermeisters of the world decided that the Jews needed their own patch of turf to exist on and recover from the horrors of near obliteration by Dolphy n his mates. Jewish leaders n learned boss cockies pointed out the patch of turf smack bang in the middle of a whole bunch of Muslim Arabic nations and the *smile* has been hitting the fan big time ever since.
You keep time lining things from after WW2 less than 100 years ago David and claiming that the land belongs to the Palestinians, simply modern history n a bit like ticky tacky n faceless twits or whatever, anything more than five minutes old is stale and irrelevant. If we run the history back, was it vacant land or a nomadic wanderers paddock? Did the Jews claim and settle there first n push the nomads out n then they later returned n claimed the turf back?

i have decided to delete my response because it is debate that is useless.

It just creates angst for me so I am taking a break.

 

[TigerMasochist]

TM, the issue is that there were people living in what was Palestine when Israel was created, they were chucked out to create Israel. That is reality. Going back to just after WWII is extremely relevant because that is when Israel was created. On the other hand the Zionists lay claim to Israel on the basis they lived there thousands of years ago. Now, I have no time for claims from the Bible, Torah or any other religious text. But, Israel has existed since 1948 and it is not going anywhere. Hence the problem. Palestinians chucked out of the place where they lived, replaced by Israelis who have lived there now for a few generations. This is one of the main reasons why I have favoured a 1 state solution, but the way to get to 1 state has become more difficult with the current massive increase in hostilities, hence the idea of a 2 state solution leading to 1 state.

So as far as you're concerned history only goes back to just after WW2. Anything before then is no longer relevant. Pretty sure that the Al Aqsa mosque was built on top of the ruins of a Jewish temple which would indicate that the original people of that region were the Jews who got invaded, enslaved n dispersed by various nations over hundreds of years and then after the madness of WW2 claimed / were given back the ownership of the region and called it Israel. Then since the Jewish people reclaimed their turf the various Arabic nations have once again decided that they don't want the Jews to exist n have been trying to eradicate n disperse them again through several wars n ongoing terrorism.

Funny thing about story books like the Bible, Torah n other religious texts. Way back in the day, the only people who could read n write were pretty much the educated god botherers, aside from trying to explain things that at the time were extremely difficult to comprehend
( therefore it was god's mysterious doing ) they also kept legal records, medical information, historical information etc etc etc alongside of and often mixed up with their god bothering stuff. Guessing that if it's not on Googly or Wiki or Ticky Tacky it's simply to religiously corrupted or not up to date enough for one as socially modernised as you.

 

[DavidSSS]

They weren’t “chucked out” at all. They left

Well in 1948 if the other arab countries hadn’t invaded Israel, the Nakba wouldn’t have happened. Of course that depends on whose version you believe.. or the land granted to Jews by the UN meant that those Palestinians living there were booted out.

Aah, I see, the Palestinians weren't chucked out they were booted out. Ok, but at least you are finally admitting that the Palestinians were living there and were removed involuntarily.

No realistic solution you say. So, we keep kicking the can down the road and the Israelis keep massacring Palestinians and throwing them off their land? Yep, your line accords with that of the Israeli government who want to just keep edging the Palestinians off the whole area between the River and the Sea and expand the state of Israel to match Netanyahu's map he took to the UN in September.

TM, the reason 1948 is critical is that it is the last time a major change happened. Following WWI Palestine ceased to be part of the Ottoman Empire, it became a protectorate and pretty much a colony of the UK. We can keep going back and back but the reality is that it was the Palestinians living there in 1948 with some Zionist settlers who had settled there and that reality was changed by the creation of the State of Israel and the booting off of the Palestinians to use Willo's terminology.

DS

 

[Willo]

So as far as you're concerned history only goes back to just after WW2. Anything before then is no longer relevant. Pretty sure that the Al Aqsa mosque was built on top of the ruins of a Jewish temple which would indicate that the original people of that region were the Jews who got invaded, enslaved n dispersed by various nations over hundreds of years and then after the madness of WW2 claimed / were given back the ownership of the region and called it Israel. Then since the Jewish people reclaimed their turf the various Arabic nations have once again decided that they don't want the Jews to exist n have been trying to eradicate n disperse them again through several wars n ongoing terrorism.

Funny thing about story books like the Bible, Torah n other religious texts. Way back in the day, the only people who could read n write were pretty much the educated god botherers, aside from trying to explain things that at the time were extremely difficult to comprehend
( therefore it was god's mysterious doing ) they also kept legal records, medical information, historical information etc etc etc alongside of and often mixed up with their god bothering stuff. Guessing that if it's not on Googly or Wiki or Ticky Tacky it's simply to religiously corrupted or not up to date enough for one as socially modernised as you.

Well if the Palestinians had accepted the partition plan and the UN resolution they’d have a hell of a lot more land.
Except the Palestinians didn’t want the Jews to have any . None, zero, zilch.
There had been skirmishes and massacres and revenge killings. The usual story for all of them that continues to this day.

Then in 1948 when Israel declared the state of Israel, the Palestinian Brigades with the other arab nations decided to wipe out the Jews.
Except they all got their arses handed to them. This was one part of the Nakba, “ the catastrophe”. Palestinians fleeing the fighting their own people and arab allies caused. So they lost some more land.
Another contributor to the Nakba was Jewish land purchases, where the farmers and others who lived on that land were told to leave. Other places they were forcibly, even at gunpoint made to leave. I’d love to know whether that land was the ares granted to Jews under the Partition Plan and/or UN Resolution. I can’t find a map of it anywhere, but it would be interesting to find out.

19 years later, they decide to do the same and repeat their attempt to eradicate the Jews. The Palestinians, the Arab League and others wanted to eradicate the Jews entirely and take all the land. They got their arses handed to them again. And lost more land.

Then in 1973, rinse and repeat. The arabs copped another hiding and they lost more land.

Egypt handed over control of Gaza to Israel. Believing the Palestinians were conspiring with the Islamic Brotherhood to overthrow the Egyptian government and fomenting unrest. ie they were too much trouble. So the southern border of Gaza has the Egyptians manning the blockade as they don’t want any of them.

Ditto the West Bank.
The PLO and other Palestinians living in Jordan, under Arafat conspired on a few occasions to assassinate King Hussein. Finally he’d had enough. His forces battled the PLO in the Black September clashes.
Jordan expelled many Palestinians and gave up control of the WB to Israel. They’d had enough of the pesky troublesome Palestinians as well.
So the reality is, no one wants the Palestinians. No arab or Muslim country want them. It’s not because if they do accept them as refugees it plays into Israels hands. They wouldn’t have given up control of Gaza or the WB.
It’s because having them causes more trouble than it’s worth.

But the funniest thing is, after starting 3 wars and not counting the suicide bombers, missile attacks, shootings etc. the Palest8nians still believe they should have the land back.

Then what? Start another war? Lose and want what they lost back again. Talk about dumb business

 

[Willo]

You’d nearly laugh at the suggestion that the USA should impose a solution on Israel to give land back to the Palestinians.
Does that set a precendent?
Do the Mexicans get California, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah and Nevada back do you think?
The goddamm yanks took all that land from Mexico, maybe they’ll return it. No wonder so many “wetbacks” are trying to get into the USA. They’re really just going home.

Will the Xhosa in South Africa give the traditional lands back to the Zulu and Sotho nationsand the other tribes? From when they took over the from the colonialists. Will Zimbabwe seperate the Shona, Ndebele and San lands.

Why are the Palestinians the exception?
When will the USA (why does it have to be them? ) What about other world powers like China and Russia share the burden? when will they sort out all the other land disputes or religious disbutes around the world?

What about Africa?
Care International's research singled out 10 African countries — including Zimbabwe, Uganda, Burundi, Zambia, and Senegal — that are suffering crises such as climate change, conflict, poverty, hunger, violence and political instability but are getting little news coverage.
What about the floods, drought and hunger in Angola that affected some 7 million people.


Oh where is the humanitarian care and concern? Where are the protest marches?
Oh they’re black not brown. Not newsworthy. Not the popular topic. Not worth it.

Donate to East Africa hunger crisis | Somalia, Kenya, Ethiopia, South Sudan, Uganda | World Vision Australia

Humanitarian assistance is urgently needed to support millions of people facing food insecurity.

www.worldvision.com.au

$billions if not $trillions have been given to the Palestinians, maybe some of the money and aid can go elsewhere where it’s needed.
Instead of some of it being siphoned off for weapons, missile manufacture and building tunnels.

 

[Willo]

Aah, I see, the Palestinians weren't chucked out they were booted out. Ok, but at least you are finally admitting that the Palestinians were living there and were removed involuntarily.

Finally admitting? I‘ve never said otherwise. You’re a little confused

No realistic solution you say. So, we keep kicking the can down the road and the Israelis keep massacring Palestinians and throwing them off their land? Yep, your line accords with that of the Israeli government who want to just keep edging the Palestinians off the whole area between the River and the Sea and expand the state of Israel to match Netanyahu's map he took to the UN in September.

Well we could also use your plan for “the US to impose a solution“. What if the US decided they could go and live with Iranians?
That would sort it all out.

TM, the reason 1948 is critical is that it is the last time a major change happened. Following WWI Palestine ceased to be part of the Ottoman Empire, it became a protectorate and pretty much a colony of the UK. We can keep going back and back but the reality is that it was the Palestinians living there in 1948 with some Zionist settlers who had settled there

Telling only part of the story. And you “know history
The Balfour Declaration of 1917 establishing a National home for the Jewish people
The UN Partition Plan of 1947. Resolution 181. 3 zones. Arab state 2. Jewish state 3.Jerusalem under an International body

And you know very well, knowing your detail to history, but only when it suits you. Otherwise you tend to leave a lot of detail out.
There weren’t just “some Zionist settlers who had settled there”. There was an existing Jewish population that had never left.
Then other migrants came. They weren’t just “settlers” you use that term disparagingly. We know the reason why. There were land purchases made by Jewish companies. A lot of Palestinians may have lived on the land but they never owned it. That’s a fact anyone can look up for themselves. But often don’t because it stuffs their narrative.

and that reality was changed by the creation of the State of Israel and the booting off of the Palestinians to use Willo's terminology.

Yes don’t forget the UN Resolution 181 partition plan. see above.
Yes when the State of Israel was created and the Palestinians other Muslim nations wanted to eradicate the Jews from Israel. Then in 1967 and then again in 1973. “Yeah we know we started 3 wars and other terror attacks, got our arses handed back by those we attacked, but they’ve kept the land”
They’d be the only mob of idiots that keep starting wars, losing them and then want everything back again. And money and aid to go with it.
And so many fall for it. Now wonder they never learn. Protest, blame Israel for defending themselves and put their hands out again.
And now the protests are “we are all hamas”. Not we’re not! Only the *smile* wits are

The booting out didn’t just start then. Squatters the world over have been booted off land by the owners.

DS

 

[Willo]

Just a thought
The average age of Palestinians is 74.3 years. Life expectancy for women is 76.7 for men 71.9
Since the State of Israel was declared in 1948 and the Nakba in 1947/48. Its approx 76 years ago.
There wouldn’t be too many of the original inhabitants left these days. given the time passed and the respective ages.
I wonder how just how many. (found some numbers)
Palestinians in total 70+ Approx 100,000. 80+ approx 23,000 90+ approx 1,400. So 75+ to 90+ = approx 74,000

Maybe Israel could invite them back to live out their final days in Israel. That would be a sign of goodwill and obviously at that age they wouldn’t pose much danger, like being part of hamas.

The age demographic of the remaining Palestinians is such that they have never lived anywhere else.
So they’re not really refugees if they are living where they’re born and where their forefathers were born, lived and worked.
Gaza was/is Palestinian and the WB was/is Palestinian so they are their homelands aren’t they?

 

[Willo]

In war-battered Gaza, residents grow angry with Hamas
BY CLAIRE PARKER, HEBA FAROUK MAHFOUZ, HAZEM BALOUSHA AND HAJAR HARB
27th April 2024

JERUSALEM — More than six months into the war in Gaza and with dimming hopes for a cease-fire deal, Palestinians there are growing more critical of Hamas, which some of them blame for the months-long conflict that has destroyed the territory — and their lives.


The war has displaced most of the Gaza Strip’s population, killed tens of thousands of people and pushed the enclave toward famine, its infrastructure in ruins. The Israeli military waged a punishing campaign to eliminate Hamas after the group, which ruled Gaza for 17 years, attacked Israel on Oct. 7, killing an estimated 1,200 people and abducting more than 250.


But while the majority of Palestinians in Gaza blame Israel for their suffering, according to polling conducted in March, they also appear to be turning their ire toward the militants. In interviews with more than a dozen residents of Gaza, people said they resent Hamas for the attacks in Israel and — war-weary and desperate to fulfill their basic needs — just want to see peace as soon as possible.


If Hamas wanted to start a war, “they should have secured people first — secured a place of refuge for them, not thrown them into suffering that no one can bear,” said Salma El-Qadomi, 33, a freelance journalist who has been displaced 11 times since the conflict started.


Palestinians want leaders “who won’t drag people into a war like this,” she said. “Almost everyone around me shares the same thoughts: We want this waterfall of blood to stop. Seventeen years of destruction and wars are enough.”


Hamas, an Islamist political and military movement, was founded in 1987 during the first Palestinian uprising. It staged some of the deadliest attacks on Israeli civilians and later won Palestinian legislative elections, beating out the secular Fatah party that leads the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank.


The rival parties entered into a deadly power struggle, fighting a brief but bloody battle in Gaza in 2007, when Hamas seized control. For years after that, the group fought sporadic wars with Israel, but it also presided over periods of calm.


It used the smuggling tunnels under the border with Egypt to manage the territory’s besieged economy and cracked down on criminal gangs that preyed on locals. More recently, however, Hamas’s fortunes turned. The tunnel trade had dried up after Egypt sealed off the network, and the group’s isolation deepened as some Arab states began normalizing relations with Israel.


Still, many observers, including Israel’s leaders, were sure Hamas wanted to stay in power and had little interest in a major conflict. The attack in October took many Palestinians — and much of the world — by surprise.


Hamas has said it launched the assault in part to avenge what it claimed was Israel’s “desecration” of the al-Aqsa mosque compound in Jerusalem, Islam’s third-holiest site, known to Jews — who also consider it sacred — as the Temple Mount.
The attack, a terrifying rampage through southern Israeli communities, initially boosted the group’s support in both Gaza and the West Bank, according the Ramallah-based Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, which carried out polling in late November and early December

Even recently, in a poll conducted over five days in March, a majority of respondents in both places say Hamas’s decision to carry out the attack was “correct.”


But, the center’s researchers said, “it is clear from the findings … that support for the offensive does not mean support for Hamas.” Instead, the results show three-quarters of Palestinians believe the attack refocused global attention on the conflict “after years of neglect.”


The anger mounting now in the enclave appears centered on stalled cease-fire talks, with Hamas insisting on a permanent truce and Israel’s full withdrawal from Gaza before it hands over any hostages


“We can’t live like this anymore,” said a 29-year-old displaced lawyer and mother of three, who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of retaliation. Hours before the interview, she said, Israeli drones fired at her and her children on the street in central Gaza.


“We need to be able to mourn what has happened to us, to bury those who were killed and look for those lost,” she said. “By any means, we want the war to stop, whatever it takes.”


Fedaa Zayed, a 35-year-old writer from northern Gaza, said she thinks Hamas is avoiding a cease-fire agreement because it doesn’t want to admit defeat. She fled her Gaza City apartment on the second day of the war and is now staying in Rafah on the border with Egypt.


“In reality, we are in full retreat, the domestic front is destroyed,” Zayed said. “We, as a people, want a cease-fire, the withdrawal of the Israeli army. We want to return to our homes even if they are in rubble.”


Hamas says it understands the frustrations of those who are suffering in Gaza. “But these complaints do not reflect the political situation,” said Basem Naim, a senior Hamas official.


The most popular and interesting stories of the day to keep you in the know. In your inbox, every day.

Instead, he said, “we are listening to thousands of voices that are emphasizing that despite the sacrifice, they refuse to let go of the big goals that involve ending the occupation, freeing Jerusalem and setting up a Palestinian state.”


Naim and other senior political leaders, including Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh, are based outside Gaza. Inside the enclave, Hamas leader Yehiya Sinwar, the apparent mastermind of Oct. 7, is believed to be hunkered down in a tunnel to escape the Israeli strikes

Hamas, however, has never really tolerated dissent, and it arrested, jailed and beat activists who spoke out against its rule
The group’s administration in Gaza was “full of corruption, nepotism, and bias in favor of the movement,” said Mohamed, 35, a graphic designer from Rafah. He spoke on the condition that only his first name be used out of fear of reprisal by the group’s fighters.


Also in Rafah, Ayman, 46, said he voted for Hamas in 2006 because he thought the Palestinian Authority was corrupt. But what came next, he said, also speaking on the condition that only his first name be used, “was a number of wars, the destruction of homes, the martyrdom of thousands, difficulty in life, and the siege.”


Earlier this year, demonstrations calling for a cease-fire broke out in at least two cities in Gaza. In a video of a protest in January, a crowd of mostly men and boys marches down a street in the city of Khan Younis, holding antiwar signs and chanting: “The people want an end to the war!”


Analysts say they have also seen an uptick in social media posts critical of Hamas.

“Hamas... don’t be upset with us and try to understand us correctly,” Rami Haroon, a 45-year-old dentist and father of five, wrote on Facebook on April 20.

“We have been suffocated by you for a long time,” wrote Haroon, who said he is not affiliated with any political party. “Your ship will sink and you will drown us with you.”

But while resentment is brewing, many Palestinians “feel it’s a shame to go after Hamas during this Israeli assault,” said Mkhaimar Abusada, associate professor of political science at al-Azhar University in Gaza, who is now based in Cairo. “They don’t want to be seen as collaborators with the occupation if they protest against Hamas now.”

In the March poll from the policy center, a slim majority of respondents in Gaza said they would prefer Hamas — rather than the Palestinian Authority — to control the Strip after the war. The other options included the United Nations, the Israeli military, or one or more Arab countries.

“Given the magnitude of the suffering in the Gaza Strip, this seems to be the most counter intuitive finding of the entire poll,” the researchers wrote. At the same time, the results were consistent with the increase in the percentage of Palestinians in Gaza who think Hamas will win the war and stay in power
There are many ways to understand that,” Palestinian political analyst Khalil Sayegh, who is based in Washington, said of the finding in an interview last week. “One of which is that the people understood and saw that Hamas is staying, and thus they’re afraid to express their opinions.”

According to Abusada, people “care about Palestine and resistance and freedom and independence. But first of all, they want to live as humans, to be able to eat and sleep.”

“That’s why the criticism is much more vocal now and much more public now,” he said. “Israel really sent us to the Stone Age.”

Mahfouz and Balousha reported from Cairo, and Harb from London. Sarah Dadouch in Beirut contributed to this report

In war-battered Gaza, residents grow angry with Hamas — The Washington Post

As Hamas sticks to a hard line in cease-fire negotiations with Israel, many Palestinians just want the fighting and misery to end after more than six devastating months.

apple.news

via Washington Post

 

[Willo]

@TigerMasochist you’ve really got to watch this. Only a few minutes long but worth the watch

 

[TigerMasochist]

TM, the reason 1948 is critical is that it is the last time a major change happened.

DS

So the only relevant history for you is the last time critical change happened. Guess that'd make Aus history only relevant from when the Poms moved in?
Guess that'd mean all over the world there'd be not much relevant history since WW2 for most countries. Is critical change in the process of happening right now in the Ukraine?? Thinking that would mean if Putinontheritz snaffles most or all of Ukraine then that area would instantly be all of Russia with none of their previous history permitted to exist or be relevant to anything.

 

[Sintiger]

So the only relevant history for you is the last time critical change happened. Guess that'd make Aus history only relevant from when the Poms moved in?
Guess that'd mean all over the world there'd be not much relevant history since WW2 for most countries. Is critical change in the process of happening right now in the Ukraine?? Thinking that would mean if Putinontheritz snaffles most or all of Ukraine then that area would instantly be all of Russia with none of their previous history permitted to exist or be relevant to anything.

TM. Going back to ancient times is a very difficult exercise in that part of the world. The people who lived in that land were probably semitic people, and by no means all of them followed Yahweh and were Israelites. It has been pointed out many times that the term anti semitic is actually inaccurate because there are many people who are semitic who are not jewish.

Paralleling it with the indigenous people of Australia is not a valid parallel. There is no doubt that the land that is now Australia was inhabited for many thousands of years but noone else but the indigenous people. There were lots of different ethnic groups and sub groups who lived in the ancient land of what is now Palestine

1948 is a big date because it was the date when the British mandate ended over Palestine so it is relevant, but it is not the only date as you rightly say because none is. The "deal" was that 54% of the land was offered to 1/3 of the people (jewish) and 46% to 2/3 of the people (Palestinians) and there would be economic union and political separation, with Jerusalem shared. In hindsight related to where we are now that looks a good deal for the Palestinians but of course there were many then that believed one of two things
1. There should have been no offer at all, that although Palestine was not a nation it was a "land" (an entity) and the British or anybody else had no right to partition something that wasn't theirs to partition. That was certainly the view of many of the Arab nations at the time.
2. The partition was very unfair given the population and land split, especially given many thousands of Palestinians were living on the 54% that was given to the jewish people.
What happened was that the palestinians backed by many Arab countries rejected the deal all together and didn't participate in the process and the Jews declared a nation (Israel).

and here we are now ...

None of that is a value judgement, you make up your own mind on what has happened since but putting 76 years of hindsight into the minds of people making decisions then is not particularly helpful.

Deciding whose "land" it is from ancient times is a fraught exercise for anyone who does not believe that "god" gave the land to the Israelites. There is no doubt that both descendants of the Israelites (many modern day Jews) and descendants of Palestinians and other Arabic people lived on the land.

 

[K3]

With more information coming out about mass graves in Palestine, where women and children are believed to have been tortured before being killed, and even buried alive, the Yanks, in their infinite complicity, have asked the Israeli Govt to investigate itself on these shameful human rights breaches. The USA has refused to push for an independent forensic investigation of what actually took place.

What a wonderful world we live in...

For those interested, here is a clip of a journo asking the Pentagon waffler about this