Palestine and Israel

[Sintiger]

Your own words condemn you.
But at least I answered you.

Only condemn me in your mind. I know you are wrong so to me it is inconsequential.

The fact that you can put in a smiley face when you have stated that someone is a terrorist sympathiser says a lot about you Willo.

 

[Willo]

Only condemn me in your mind. I know you are wrong so to me it is inconsequential.

Oh well that’s good then. You’re happy. It seems silly to ask me what I thought but you didn’t care about it anyway.

The fact that you can put in a smiley face when you have stated that someone is a terrorist sympathiser says a lot about you Willo.

I didn’t state anything. You asked for a yes or no. I gave it. But you don’t care about my answer, but put an emoji in and that’s your response. What a; absolute joke Sin. You must have missed the nuance

Differed when I asked you the same and your reply to it. A bit hypocritical. Seems par for the course for pro Pally sympathisers.

 

[Sintiger]

Oh well that’s good then. You’re happy. It seems silly to ask me what I thought but you didn’t care about it anyway.

I didn’t state anything. You asked for a yes or no. I gave it. But you don’t care about my answer, but put an emoji in and that’s your response. What a; absolute joke Sin. You must have missed the nuance

Differed when I asked you the same and your reply to it. A bit hypocritical. Seems par for the course for pro Pally sympathisers.

This is just a silly little post

I was trying to be sure about your thought process and now I am. I don’t care if you think I am a terrorist sympathiser because I know I am not. But it is a serious thing to say something like that about another human being, and maybe you should dwell on that.

 

[Willo]

This is just a silly little post

Oh of course it is.

I was trying to be sure about your thought process and now I am.

Well you’ve told me so many times I didn’t understand English, I didn’t understand context, I didn’t understand nuance. What do you expect? I don’t want to exceed your expectations

I don’t care if you think I am a terrorist sympathiser because I know I am not.

Well good for you then, that settles it.

But it is a serious thing to say something like that about another human being, and maybe you should dwell on that.

You “don’t care“ ”but it’s a serious thing” Make your mind up.

It sounds like you don’t know whether to be offended or upset that‘s about what people might think of you. But you don’t care what they think, because it’s not true. Gee follow that logic.

As I said, people’s words condemn them. I don't need to dwell on anything.
You don’t think you or some others are. Others think differently going by the words you use. Who cares? It’s an opinion. It changes nothing in the Middle East.

You think there aren’t any “human being” terrorist sympathisers anywhere? Here’s a tip, there are plenty of them.

 

[Sintiger]

Oh of course it is.

Well you’ve told me so many times I didn’t understand English, I didn’t understand context, I didn’t understand nuance. What do you expect? I don’t want to exceed your expectations

Well good for you then, that settles it.

You “don’t care“ ”but it’s a serious thing” Make your mind up.

It sounds like you don’t know whether to be offended or upset that‘s about what people might think of you. But you don’t care what they think, because it’s not true. Gee follow that logic.

As I said, people’s words condemn them. I don't need to dwell on anything.
You don’t think you or some others are. Others think differently going by the words you use. Who cares? It’s an opinion. It changes nothing in the Middle East.

You think there aren’t any “human being” terrorist sympathisers anywhere? Here’s a tip, there are plenty of them.

Of course it is a serious thing. You are stating that another human being is a terrorist sympathiser.
Whether that person values your opinion or not does mot change the seriousness of such a statement.
The idea that you can say something about someone else and wait to see if they are offended or care to decide if it is the right thing to do or not is strange thinking.

 

[DavidSSS]

I have countered every single thing you have ever put up, I have tried to engage with you logically and with great patience but in the end your response is basically to call me an anti semite who supports terrorists. This incredible nonsense that you trot out about dealing with facts is so tiresome. It is as I have said before you don't deal with facts, you can only deal with absolutes. When something is not black or white or yes or no you cannot deal with it.

Sin, we all know there is no convincing those who think everything is black and white when the situation is far more complex than they can comprehend.

You should remember the quote by Jean Cocteau:

Never associate with idiots on their own level, because being an intelligent man, you'll try to deal with them on their level - and on their level, they'll beat you every time.

DS

 

[Willo]

Of course it is a serious thing. You are stating that another human being is a terrorist sympathiser.

when someone says they deplore an atrocity then say but , it was because of the lead up to October 7 ie what Israel did prior as if to mitigate that atrocity is worse in my eyes. In others too. There’s a few others who believe as you do. In my eyes and others they’re same. Israel’s to blame for Oct 7 = Hamas sympathisers. That’s a very obvious connection. To anyone with an ounce of sense, the ability to deduce situations. Very obvious.

Whether that person values your opinion or not does mot change the seriousness of such a statement.

Well if it‘s someone I don’t care about what they say or their opinion it wouldn’t bother me in the least. Unless I was called out for something I was trying to hide. Which I haven’t been, so it’s not aproblem for me.

The idea that you can say something about someone else and wait to see if they are offended or care to decide if it is the right thing to do or not is strange thinking.

I didn’t wait for anything. It was in the same post.
Tou said you didn’t care about what I think. Then you get offended by what I think. Ok


Anyway this thread isn’t about you or me or hurt feelings. Move on.

 

[Willo]

Sin, we all know there is no convincing those who think everything is black and white when the situation is far more complex than they can comprehend.

Especially when massacring and butchering innocent civilians..men, women and children. Torturing and raping young girls and women.
Oh no It’s not black and white, otherwise Hamas gets the blame.
That won’t serve our narrative or the people we sympathise with, or their terrorist rulers they voted into power.
Oh right we’ll just blame on Israel bringing on themselves because they stole our land, illegal settlers and whatever, it’s their own fault. Hamas were,forced into the butchery. They were innocent.
Yeah, then we can say we deplore what happened on Oct 7 but …Israel, yeah. It started before that day so we just dismiss it. Hamas sympathisers right there folks

We all know where the lack of comprehension and truth sits.

You should remember the quote by Jean Cocteau:

And yet here you are. You keep coming back for more.and more. Stupidity knows no bounds

DS

Did you happen to recheck that date David. You know more about history than me. 1940 as I said. Or 1941 when you were mistaken

 

[Willo]

Good to see the posse coming in to the rescue. Yeehaa And the little lurky likers

More of the wall headbutters. Complain about me having my opinions and posts. But they just want to keep engaging with me. Or quoting me or having their usual condescending quip when their arguments are dismissed as pure guff and they’re outed for what they really are. Then get all offended.

Make your minds up.

 

[Sintiger]

when someone says they deplore an atrocity then say but , it was because of the lead up to October 7 ie what Israel did prior as if to mitigate that atrocity is worse in my eyes. In others too. There’s a few others who believe as you do. In my eyes and others they’re same. Israel’s to blame for Oct 7 = Hamas sympathisers. That’s a very obvious connection. To anyone with an ounce of sense, the ability to deduce situations. Very obvious.

Well if it‘s someone I don’t care about what they say or their opinion it wouldn’t bother me in the least. Unless I was called out for something I was trying to hide. Which I haven’t been, so it’s not aproblem for me.

I didn’t wait for anything. It was in the same post.
Tou said you didn’t care about what I think. Then you get offended by what I think. Ok


Anyway this thread isn’t about you or me or hurt feelings. Move on.

Except no one said that Israel is to blame for October 7. What has been said is that if it was not for the persecution of the Palestinian people Hamas would not exist because there would be no reason for them to exist. They are not the same thing and they will never be the same thing no matter what you say. I have said many times that I deplore the actions of Hamas, there should be other ways to get justice than violence.

Once again you don’t understand that I was giving an example in general sense with my comment about why you shouldn’t make statements as you did. I am at a loss to work out why you can’t comprehend this, it’s a real head scratcher.

This conversation is at an end as far as I am concerned.

 

[Sintiger]

Sin, we all know there is no convincing those who think everything is black and white when the situation is far more complex than they can comprehend.

You should remember the quote by Jean Cocteau:



DS

Thanks for coming to my rescue David. I really needed your help

I will take your advice. I also don’t have the time as I am busy erecting my monument to Yassar Arafat in the backyard.

 

[Willo]

Except no one said that Israel is to blame for October 7.

You’d better read through some of the posts again

What has been said is that if it was not for the persecution of the Palestinian people Hamas would not exist because there would be no reason for them to exist.

That wasn’t all that was said. You’re trying to rewrite posts in this thread

They are not the same thing and they will never be the same thing no matter what you say.

Good because I didn’t say that at all

I have said many times that I deplore the actions of Hamas, there should be other ways to get justice than violence.

But…

Once again you don’t understand that I was giving an example in general sense with my comment about why you shouldn’t make statements as you did. I am at a loss to work out why you can’t comprehend this, it’s a real head scratcher.

An example in a general sense? Why would you do that when you say I don’t understand English, I can’t comprehend anything, I don’t know what nuance is, it’s got to be black and white. What else was there you mentioned I don’t do?

This conversation is at an end as far as I am concerned.

Thank the lord for that.

 

[Willo]

Thanks for coming to my rescue David. I really needed your help

Obviously he thought so

I will take your advice. I also don’t have the time as I am busy erecting my monument to Yassar Arafat in the backyard.

Dead and long gone. They’re the opposition don’t forget.
Maybe you ought to look at Haniyeh or Sinwar

 

[Willo]

they’ve gone from “we are Palestine” to “we are Hamas”.
*smile* wits.
Now they’re in our ow; country

 

[Sintiger]

Obviously he thought so

Dead and long gone. They’re the opposition don’t forget.
Maybe you ought to look at Haniyeh or Sinwar

Last word Larry strikes again

 

[DavidSSS]

There is a big difference between explaining the actions of a group like Hamas and supporting their actions.

I'll explain for the bystanders as Sin clearly knows this already and others cannot comprehend.

If you actually analyse a situation and attempt to explain actions which you do not agree with you are on the path of attempting to prevent the actions taking place in the first place. So, by looking at the reasons why Hamas exist and why they act the way they do, you are trying to resolve the situation before it comes to this.

On the other hand, if you equate explaining a group's actions with supporting their actions you have no analysis to prevent the actions in the first place, you are limited to responding after the fact.

Of course, you can also use the actions of Hamas to pursue other agendas as we are seeing with the Israeli government turning Gaza into rubble, hassling and killing Palestinians in the West Bank and quietly annexing more of the West Bank. But these responses will solve nothing in the medium to long term. The Palestinians have a right to self-determination and most of the world already understands this.

DS

 

[Willo]

Good post.
You should have written that 100 pages back David. At least it’s in English and you’re not talking about the War of the Roses

 

[Sintiger]

There is a big difference between explaining the actions of a group like Hamas and supporting their actions.

I'll explain for the bystanders as Sin clearly knows this already and others cannot comprehend.

If you actually analyse a situation and attempt to explain actions which you do not agree with you are on the path of attempting to prevent the actions taking place in the first place. So, by looking at the reasons why Hamas exist and why they act the way they do, you are trying to resolve the situation before it comes to this.

On the other hand, if you equate explaining a group's actions with supporting their actions you have no analysis to prevent the actions in the first place, you are limited to responding after the fact.

Of course, you can also use the actions of Hamas to pursue other agendas as we are seeing with the Israeli government turning Gaza into rubble, hassling and killing Palestinians in the West Bank and quietly annexing more of the West Bank. But these responses will solve nothing in the medium to long term. The Palestinians have a right to self-determination and most of the world already understands this.

DS

Of course that is what the study of history is in the end, understanding not just what but why. Unfortunately the lessons of history aren’t being learned by so many in this particular conflict.

When you take something away from a people which is theirs they will fight back and using further violence and oppression against them does not solve the basic issue. The other lesson is that using extreme violence against your oppressor does nothing but perpetuate violence and will not solve the issue either.

When all this happens we are just lost in a sea of violence and will be until the actual issue is resolved.

The troubles have always been a great lesson for this particular conflict imo. There is no doubt Ireland is the homeland of the ethnic celts there and there is a long history of invasion and oppression by the British not just in Northern Ireland but in the republic as well. The resistance spawned ugly response from organisations such as the IRA even spilling over to mainland England which in the end did nothing to solve the problem. Yet it was solved by compromise with neither side getting all they wanted. We have even seen a Sinn Fein government in Northern Ireland.

No conflict is the same and no issue is a perfect parallel, but the lesson of the troubles is relevant. Compromise on both sides is necessary and we need leaders to take a stand. The only compromise that works in this case is an acceptance that in that land both Israelis and Palestinians must live together or side by side. That the Palestinians deserve a viable state and that the State of Israel exists and is not going away.

 

[DavidSSS]

More on the mass graves:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024...t-gazas-nasser-hospital-what-you-need-to-know

I said months ago that Israel exists, but it exists on Palestinian land, and that is the dilemma facing those who try to resolve this.

Although I have been of the opinion that a 2 state solution is not viable and only a 1 state solution can work, recent events have led me to the conclusion that a 2 state solution can be an interim measure, followed by confederation and eventually 1 state. This is the only way forward I can see and the only way to do this would be to impose the second state, ie: Palestine, on the region and have it run by the UN for a fair number of years.

Otherwise we continue the military responses and military responses are not about compromise, they are about victory. The only military resolution would be removal of either the Palestinians or the Israelis, neither of which is going to happen.

The parallel with Ireland is very relevant although I always saw the final outcome of the Good Friday agreement to be a United Ireland, one day maybe.

DS

 

[Willo]

I said months ago that Israel exists, but it exists on Palestinian land, and that is the dilemma facing those who try to resolve this.

Although I have been of the opinion that a 2 state solution is not viable and only a 1 state solution can work, recent events have led me to the conclusion that a 2 state solution can be an interim measure, followed by confederation and eventually 1 state. This is the only way forward I can see and the only way to do this would be to impose the second state, ie: Palestine, on the region and have it run by the UN for a fair number of years.

So in your scenario, which area does the second state ie Palestine comprise of David?

Would it incorporate one area or two like it is now?

Who would govern this second state? One governing body or two? If the PA is on the nose, what happens if Hamas won the vote?
Do you think Israel would wear that?

Otherwise we continue the military responses and military responses are not about compromise, they are about victory. The only military resolution would be removal of either the Palestinians or the Israelis, neither of which is going to happen.

So if the removal of Israelis isn’t going to happen, do you envisage the “second state” to comprise of the WB and Gaza? Or another alternative?

The parallel with Ireland is very relevant although I always saw the final outcome of the Good Friday agreement to be a United Ireland, one day maybe.

DS

It’s got to be realistic to even be contemplated, let alone acceptable.

Surely not what hamas is demanding, pre 1967 boundaries.
I very much doubt the Israelis wouldn’t even take an initial phone call, let alone sit down to discuss that.