Other games Rnd 3 | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Other games Rnd 3

I see a lot of us assuming umpire bias in here, but we should focus on what the Bulldogs are doing.

What's going on here? What's true? I think the Bulldogs, and other teams, train to win free kicks.

They are very technical and know what they are doing.

In contrast, we don't think about that as much because Richmond plays with honour and doesn't worry about manipulating technical rules to win.

If we don't like this situation, there is only one practical way to change the landscape anytime soon:

Draw attention to it.

The answer already exists as a rule. If you contribute to your own high contact, then it's play on. That is a rule, correct? It was introduced specifically to curb the Joel Selwood shrug. So why is the Joel Selwood shrug still prevalent?

That's what we should be drawing attention to.

In theory, any player that tries to manipulate the rules for their own advantage should not be rewarded with a free kick.

It shouldn't matter how the player does it.

This is in the category of the old intentional out of bounds rule - the umpire needs to read the intent of the player.

Every single time a Bulldogs player carefully twists into a tackle with the technique to draw a free kick, it rightfully should not be a free kick.

If it happens too fast, then they need to be trained at spotting these techniques better or alternative deterrents would need to be introduced.

End of the way, it's a player-generated problem, so the solution will come from a focus on what the players are doing to create the problem.

I mostly agree, but I would add an element of umpiring inconsistency. They do come up with different decisions in situations which are essentially the same.

I'm sure some teams do train for free kicks, but that does not explain the disparity for West Coast in Perth (a disparity which is not reflected in their free kick stats elsewhere) and it also does not explain how some teams keep getting free kicks even after changing coaches and players. I'm not sure when Bevo took over at Footscray but they have had 6 years in the 2000s where they have not had a free kick advantage, some years it can be as high as 130%. I know we changed our style of play from 2016 to 2017 and yet in both years we had a deficit.

As for the training for free kicks, they really do need to crack down on the shrug to make a tackle high, the duck to make a tackle high and the fall forward in a tackle to get an in the back free. They are a blight on the game.

The whole free kick disparity cannot be explained only by players' actions, there is not enough consistency in umpiring.

DS
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
rd...thats all.

3 Both sides flooded back 50 and looked for fast break. Result of stand rule.
4 Further result of stand rule and coach adapting. ..low scoring.
Congratulations idiots at AFL.
5. Further result..high making contests almost gone.

I think what we're seeing is the inevitable logical conclusion of the game's recent shift towards professionalism. It's physics.

Imagine it theoretically with 44 people on an open field. They could be atoms in a balloon. Fish in a barrel. Lions on the savannah.

The task is to work together to get the ball through the sticks at your end of the field.

Logically, what will happen if those 44 entities become, let's say, twice as fit and 20% faster?

They'll cover more ground more quickly, yes?

Okay, but the field is the same size. That means the opposition has less time and less space.

New law: "Running power" and "time and space" have an inverse relationship.

There's more to the equation. Now you've got 2 x coaches coordinating these 44 players who now cover twice as much ground at higher velocities.

Then you add 3-5 full-time assistant coaches to spend 3-5 months working full-time with those players in small groups to get everyone running in effective, synchronous patterns to make it really hard for the opposition to have time or space. Better defence.

And then you get those teammates to spend 5-8 years learning how to cover each other in their system.

And THEN you get to a match today.

What's going to happen? How do you score against that?

Richmond discovered a theoretical way to score in 2017: you need to move the ball faster than the professionally defending opposition can setup their systems, and the best possible time to do this is to prey on the opposition's mistakes, because that's when they're not ready, so then you'll get time and space.

We did it with fast direct kicking, running towards goal, forward handballs, chaos crumbled balls for small forwards at the feet of a pack, running in numbers, play on at all costs, tap the ball forward, be unpredictable (while knowing where your teammate will be)... Richmond footy.

We were the first club to perfectly account for these changes to professionalism in the modern game.

This is where the game will inevitably continue to go based on the amount of coordinated running that is now the new normal, and certainly hasn't yet reached it's maximum limits.

To address the 3 points quoted:

3.) Teams flood back to defend with as many numbers as possible, then win a fast break, and now they have an opportunity to move the ball forward in the absence of opposition defensive systems. That's not a result of the stand rule - it's just a result of full-time professionalism as predicted above.

4.) Scoring is lower because it's easier to defend in the era of full-time coordinated professional runners. That's due to about changes in defence, not attack, and the rule changes have all been a futile attempt to combat these inevitable changes brought on by rising professionalism across the competition.

5.) High marking contests are still there, they're just a lot easier to defend against because the defensive teams are now professional athletes who spend 5-8 years training specifically to organise themselves to cover each other. So, you can't score with this strategy anymore and you never will again, because future defenders will only become more capable of covering more ground more quickly... not less. If you think back to Rance/Grimes/Vlas/Astbury covering for each other in 2017, and then imagine Tony Lockett trying to get a kick against a defensive unit like that, and then everyone else learning how to imitate it... what we're seeing is just the inevitable logical conclusion of defensive professionalism, and it's only going to keep getting harder to score when the opposition is setup.

When teams score a goal these days, I'm especially paying attention to the 2-3 possessions before it. You'll notice a large number of goals these days come from 2 fast, forward possessions before the forward can get the ball. Even when a big, tall forward takes a mark... rewind the tape. It's very often just a chest mark on the lead following the ball moving 80m in under 3 seconds when the opposition isn't ready. They very rarely take big contested marks against a setup defence like people remember seeing in the traditional version of the sport.

Jack Riewoldt is a genius forward and he rarely kicks goals by marking the ball after a slow kick into a big pack. It's an forward handball to a running Trent Cotchin who takes 1 second to keep running forward and then kick in short and low to a smart leading Jack who knows where Trent is looking and when he'll pull the trigger.

It's a permanent change caused by a massive increase in running power and meaningful improvements in club's ability to coordinate that running power. Stand rule is nothing in comparison to that IMO.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I think what we're seeing is the inevitable logical conclusion of the game's recent shift towards professionalism. It's physics.

Imagine it theoretically with 44 people on an open field. They could be atoms in a balloon. Fish in a barrel. Lions on the savannah.

The task is to work together to get the ball through the sticks at your end of the field.

Logically, what will happen if those 44 entities become, let's say, twice as fit and 20% faster?

They'll cover more ground more quickly, yes?

Okay, but the field is the same size. That means the opposition has less time and less space.

New law: "Running power" and "time and space" have an inverse relationship.

There's more to the equation. Now you've got 2 x coaches coordinating these 44 players who now cover twice as much ground at higher velocities.

Then you add 3-5 full-time assistant coaches to spend 3-5 months working full-time with those players in small groups to get everyone running in effective, synchronous patterns to make it really hard for the opposition to have time or space. Better defence.

And then you get those teammates to spend 5-8 years learning how to cover each other in their system.

And THEN you get to a match today.

What's going to happen? How do you score against that?

Richmond discovered a theoretical way to score in 2017: you need to move the ball faster than the professionally defending opposition can setup their systems, and the best possible time to do this is to prey on the opposition's mistakes, because that's when they're not ready, so then you'll get time and space.

We did it with fast direct kicking, running towards goal, forward handballs, chaos crumbled balls for small forwards at the feet of a pack, running in numbers, play on at all costs, tap the ball forward, be unpredictable (while knowing where your teammate will be)... Richmond footy.

We were the first club to perfectly account for these changes to professionalism in the modern game.

This is where the game will inevitably continue to go based on the amount of coordinated running that is now the new normal, and certainly hasn't yet reached it's maximum limits.

To address the 3 points quoted:

3.) Teams flood back to defend with as many numbers as possible, then win a fast break, and now they have an opportunity to move the ball forward in the absence of opposition defensive systems. That's not a result of the stand rule - it's just a result of full-time professionalism as predicted above.

4.) Scoring is lower because it's easier to defend in the era of full-time coordinated professional runners. That's due to about changes in defence, not attack, and the rule changes have all been a futile attempt to combat these inevitable changes brought on by rising professionalism across the competition.

5.) High marking contests are still there, they're just a lot easier to defend against because the defensive teams are now professional athletes who spend 5-8 years training specifically to organise themselves to cover each other. So, you can't score with this strategy anymore and you never will again, because future defenders will only become more capable of covering more ground more quickly... not less. If you think back to Rance/Grimes/Vlas/Astbury covering for each other in 2017, and then imagine Tony Lockett trying to get a kick against a defensive unit like that, and then everyone else learning how to imitate it... what we're seeing is just the inevitable logical conclusion of defensive professionalism, and it's only going to keep getting harder to score when the opposition is setup.

When teams score a goal these days, I'm especially paying attention to the 2-3 possessions before it. You'll notice a large number of goals these days come from 2 fast, forward possessions before the forward can get the ball. Even when a big, tall forward takes a mark... rewind the tape. It's very often just a chest mark on the lead following the ball moving 80m in under 3 seconds when the opposition isn't ready. They very rarely take big contested marks against a setup defence like people remember seeing in the traditional version of the sport.

Jack Riewoldt is a genius forward and he rarely kicks goals by marking the ball after a slow kick into a big pack. It's an forward handball to a running Trent Cotchin who takes 1 second to keep running forward and then kick in short and low to a smart leading Jack who knows where Trent is looking and when he'll pull the trigger.

It's a permanent change caused by a massive increase in running power and meaningful improvements in club's ability to coordinate that running power. Stand rule is nothing in comparison to that IMO.

Pretty much agree with this . . . but . . . the stand rule still sucks and has to go.

DS
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I got the feeling the swans missed a few 50/50 type frees while Dogs got them

to win by 2 goals with a skewed free count doesn't bode well for the dogs
Dogs very inaccurate. They kick straigher they win by more. Dogs looked the better team. I'd rather the dogs to be up than Sydney.
 
I mostly agree, but I would add an element of umpiring inconsistency. They do come up with different decisions in situations which are essentially the same.

I'm sure some teams do train for free kicks, but that does not explain the disparity for West Coast in Perth (a disparity which is not reflected in their free kick stats elsewhere) and it also does not explain how some teams keep getting free kicks even after changing coaches and players. I'm not sure when Bevo took over at Footscray but they have had 6 years in the 2000s where they have not had a free kick advantage, some years it can be as high as 130%. I know we changed our style of play from 2016 to 2017 and yet in both years we had a deficit.

As for the training for free kicks, they really do need to crack down on the shrug to make a tackle high, the duck to make a tackle high and the fall forward in a tackle to get an in the back free. They are a blight on the game.

The whole free kick disparity cannot be explained only by players' actions, there is not enough consistency in umpiring.

DS

You could be right, I haven't looked closely enough to be sure either way. I'm assuming these inconsistencies are from players learning how to split hairs, so the umpires would be technically correct even though two incidents look almost identical. If it is umpire bias then I don't know how to approach a problem like that.

The ones that frustrate me are the unavoidable ones.

The Bulldogs do a thing where they turn 180 degrees, and their body will be at a 45 degree angle from the ground (insanely low) and they'll almost get so low that their legs slide out from under them while their shoulders drop lower and lower into the approaching tackler. Their facial expression shows they're anticipating contact well before the tackle. I've seen this happen where "high contact" is made 30cm from the ground in the slow motion replay. That's a joke lol.

If there was no tackler there, it would look ridiculous. Our players can't avoid this unless that anticipate it and just stop approaching the contest altogether in hopes of making the opposition look foolish... but if we don't want to do that, then we can't avoid some of these techniques, so our only option would be to draw attention to the existing rule that's supposed to curb this kind of behaviour.

Focusing on umpire bias will only hurt us, so even if that is the cause, it'll help us more to focus on the players performing the action.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Pretty much agree with this . . . but . . . the stand rule still sucks and has to go.

DS
Stand rule's not changing. We won flags with Whateley's changes.
AFL don't test any changes prior to their introduction. Melbourne have won a flag with the new rule. I hope that Richmond has been working on it for the off season.
After the Carlton loss things were pretty negative. The win vs the Giants has restored my faith. I don't think we will win a flag this year but let's wait and see
 
You sure? My stats say last 5 years Geelong frees for 8th most, 16th, 8th, 7th, 1st. For differential, 2nd, 16, 5, 8, 12.

Selwood 2.4 frees per game over last 5 games (2.5 over his career). As comparison, over last 5 years Cripps is the closest I can find @ 2.33 over last 5 years.

No doubt Selwood has attracted a lot of frees, but not so much by ducking imo so to speak, but his skill to drop the shoulder at just the right time and force an opponent's arm higher in the tackle.
1648795050008.png

Got this from https://www.sen.com.au/news/2021/12/06/the-afl-free-kick-ladder-of-the-last-five-years/

Got the Selwood stat from this article: https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/fo...l/news-story/7c8eea5455c5aaf64bc5800ad1649ad7

Not saying it's accurate BTW
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
No it looks like it is correct. Interesting. I prefer comparing frees differential per opposition as it takes into account the frees the opposition received in the same game. In that stat Bulldogs & Pies are way out in front over the last 5 years. Tigers were last in 3 and 2nd last in 1 of the last 5 years.
 
I accept what 123cups is saying. .but the stand rule has forced coaches to defend in the back 50 en mass...as it is now impossible to defend in the wider midfield.
This is only possible because players are fitter than 20 years ago.
On the offensive side, the attacking team cannot get through the flood unless they chip to avoid a turnover and get exposed the other way or must attack on the fast break..also possible due to fitness.
This style of play is necessary to combat the stand rule.
It precludes long kicking and high marking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
How *smile* do Robbos bombers look. Geez they are in for a long year.
 
Over the shoulder, around the neck and ball between Fritsch's legs and they pin the Drugs bloke for holding it .......................... garbage decision.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
lol Guelfi .......................... that was *smile* that Hamm shouldve given off the first handball.