NBN

[Liverpool]

The NBN is an investment! There will be direct (through charged access) and countless indirect benefits to the economy. Get on your high horse about other spending (eg. Howard-style middle class welfare), but recognise that the NBN will be an economic bonus.

Of course its supposed to be an investment...all spending of our money should be, but you don't invest in something else if you already have a large (and growing) debt, do you?

As I have said before, I am in no way saying the Coalition's IT plan is better than the NBN...but I am also a realist, and want the Government to be economically responsible as well.
You don't keep spending money you don't have, simple as that.

 

[Liverpool]

The media conventrate on process and personalities because on economic management, foreign policy and implementing a legislative agenda labor's record is untouchable.

Bit disappointed that you drank the media kool aid SinTiger re "bumbling". Foreign policy achievements with the three biggest players in our region, China, India and US and gaining a prominent seat in world matters through G20 and a seat on the UN Security Council show they are anything but bumbling.

Having the best managed economy in the develeped world with solid public finances, low debt, one of only 9A economies ( ie more credit worthy than previous Australian governments) solid growth, low inflation, low interest rates shows its anything but bumbling.

And implementing an enourmous legislative reform agenda including carbon pricing, increasing super to 12%, fixing the Murray Darling Basin Conundrum of 112 years, establishing marine parks, getting rid of workchoices, massively refunding and reforming qualitatively the services in hospitals and education, massive infrastructure spend including building the NBN, establishing a national disability insurance scheme, further introducing Gonski reforms, introducing plain paper packaging, tripling the tax free threshold, massively increasing pensions, introducing Australia's first paid parental leave scheme, introducing gambling reforms, gaining a UN security counsel seat all while taxing people less than Howard and Costello did (as a percentage of GDP) shows it is anything but bumbling.

Under labor Australians have become the wealthiest nation in the world based on median wealth and gone from the 15th largest to the 12th largest economy in the world. (Poor old Livers is so dim he still doesn't know the difference between high private wealth and low public debt and conflates and confuses the two - very typical with economically illiterate tories).

Gillard will go down as one of Australia's great PMs when the daily spin cycle of the ratbag right is forgotten and real achievements accounted. Lets hope she gets further terms as Australia cannot affiord to go backwards after so much has been achieved.

The issue is really are the Australian people worthy of this government. Present signs are not promising.

That's just all fantastic :clap artyfest

Now back to the question I asked:

Our debt:

Date (30 June) Gross Debt ($ millions)
2007 58,284
2008 60,462
2009 101,147
2010 147,133
2011 191,291
2012 233,976

If everything is so rosy as you suggest, why is this growing and what is a Gillard-led government going to do to start reducing this?

Or do we just keep putting things on the tab (such as the NBN) and let someone else down the track try and rectify it (the Libs again? :?

Since the ALP has been in power, there has been no control at all over this and I doubt very much there is going to be any plan moving forward and while some people can say the NBN is an investment, is it going to help reduce or control this debt? is it going to make Australia money? is it going to keep businesses in Australia, or even encourage businesses to move there operations here, and therefore encourage jobs growth and maybe reduce this debt?

Many questions but so far, not many answers with substance from anyone.

 

[MB78]

Strange tactic by the Libs. They should embrace the technology and plan because to do otherwise is just setting Australia back to the outdoor dunny days in terms of IT. The can easily cast doubt on the ALPs ability to rollout it out on time and on budget turning it into an election winner for the instead of their current plan which is ridiculously bad.

Agree with all of this.

 

[mld]

Strange tactic by the Libs. They should embrace the technology and plan because to do otherwise is just setting Australia back to the outdoor dunny days in terms of IT. The can easily cast doubt on the ALPs ability to rollout it out on time and on budget turning it into an election winner for the instead of their current plan which is ridiculously bad.

In terms of tactics, Stilgherrian reckons Turnbull is 'pwning'.

 

[Sintiger]

Bit disappointed that you drank the media kool aid SinTiger re "bumbling". Foreign policy achievements with the three biggest players in our region, China, India and US and gaining a prominent seat in world matters through G20 and a seat on the UN Security Council show they are anything but bumbling.

Having the best managed economy in the develeped world with solid public finances, low debt, one of only 9A economies ( ie more credit worthy than previous Australian governments) solid growth, low inflation, low interest rates shows its anything but bumbling.

And implementing an enourmous legislative reform agenda including carbon pricing, increasing super to 12%, fixing the Murray Darling Basin Conundrum of 112 years, establishing marine parks, getting rid of workchoices, massively refunding and reforming qualitatively the services in hospitals and education, massive infrastructure spend including building the NBN, establishing a national disability insurance scheme, further introducing Gonski reforms, introducing plain paper packaging, tripling the tax free threshold, massively increasing pensions, introducing Australia's first paid parental leave scheme, introducing gambling reforms, gaining a UN security counsel seat all while taxing people less than Howard and Costello did (as a percentage of GDP) shows it is anything but bumbling.

Under labor Australians have become the wealthiest nation in the world based on median wealth and gone from the 15th largest to the 12th largest economy in the world. (Poor old Livers is so dim he still doesn't know the difference between high private wealth and low public debt and conflates and confuses the two - very typical with economically illiterate tories).

Gillard will go down as one of Australia's great PMs when the daily spin cycle of the ratbag right is forgotten and real achievements accounted. Lets hope she gets further terms as Australia cannot affiord to go backwards after so much has been achieved.

The issue is really are the Australian people worthy of this government. Present signs are not promising.

I don't drink anybody's Kool aid lamby, especially not the australian media's. I make up my own mind from what i experience and see.

Give me the ALP vision of the world and this country ahead of the LNP's any day. My point is simply that the ALP in terms of running infrastructure projects is bumbling and have proven themselves so. They interfere too much when they have little expertise, they try and do too much too quickly to satisfy the masses. I have direct experience in one of the areas you mention and what I have seen is that the policy is good but the implementation of that policy is totally inept from both the ALP federal government and the LNP State Government.

Government should set direction and the vision and leave the implementation to the experts. It could be argued that they have done this by setting up the NBN co but my understanding from people who I know involved that there is too much Government interference in mechanics.

I love the current NBN but Government should stay away. Good governments make good policy, its when they try and do things they stuff up.

 

[Willo]

Future of broadband going down to the wire
Date
July 3, 2013


With the departure of senator Stephen Conroy after Labor's recent switch to Kevin Rudd, it is opportune to consider what might now happen to the national broadband network.

There is no doubt the NBN was Conroy's ''baby'' with the Victorian politician having nurtured, protected and driven the project with the zeal of a religious leader determined to recruit as many new followers as possible. For Conroy, the NBN was a vision to be pursued at seemingly any cost.

Conroy's line was simple. We were asked repeatedly: How could anyone doubt the superiority of fibre to the premises?

The super speed of fibre and the view that fibre would enable endless amounts of content to be streamed into almost every Australian home were the cornerstone arguments in Conroy's passionate pursuit of his version of the NBN.

It has been a devastating line of attack and Conroy has been relentless in pursuing any critic of the NBN who dared to speak out. The problem was always going to be that Conroy's NBN was just one possible path to high-speed broadband. Much like different religious leaders having different paths to the ultimate goal, there was always going to be a difference of opinion as to the most appropriate path to a national high-speed broadband network.

Fixed versus wireless was going to be the obvious first point of contention. This is closely followed by the debate about fibre to the premises or fibre to the node. Ultimately, however, the real debate would always centre on the relative time and cost of pursuing the different paths to a national high speed broadband network.

Here the point is simply that Conroy's NBN is by far the most expensive version of a national high-speed broadband network.

Trying to connect almost every home with fibre was always going to the stumbling block and the ever-present threat to the NBN. That is assuming there would be a sufficient, ongoing amount of skilled labour and technical expertise at an affordable price to sustain a project of an increasingly unknown duration.

Just think about it. Walk down any street of Australia and you will see many houses that would need to be individually connected under Conroy's NBN. Multiply the number of houses by the thousands upon thousands of streets across Australia and you start to get some idea of the magnitude of the task ahead for Conroy's NBN.

The danger of a large cost blow-out will constantly hang over Conroy's NBN. A nice-sounding vision of connecting almost every home to fibre can soon become an economic nightmare. Ongoing delays in deploying Conroy's NBN will add considerable costs to an already very expensive project.

These cost blow-outs eventually get passed on to consumers one way or another. More problematic for consumers is that construction delays in the NBN would mean that it would take longer for consumers to get access to the promised higher broadband speeds.

So, while Conroy pursued his NBN with zeal, it was always going to be a race against time. The NBN was only guaranteed while he remained the the Broadband and Communications Minister and so long as Labor stayed in power. Any change in minister or government would inevitably cause a rethink, or at least a risk of a new minister wanting to put his or her mark on the project.

If there's one thing that is certain in politics, it is that each minister wants to cast a project in his or her image. A new minister often means a new approach or nuances on the previous minister's approach.

Will Conroy's NBN survive in its present form? Time will tell if the new Minister for Broadband and Communications, Anthony Albanese, has any new ideas of his own. With the NBN still in the relatively early construction stage it is clearly vulnerable to change now that Conroy has gone.

The workforce and engineering challenges that have delayed the construction of the NBN are likely to cause a reassessment sometime soon. Then there is the lingering debate as to whether fibre to the premises is ''superior'' as claimed. Yes, fibre may be superior if you want to be connected to a landline and download lots of content on a regular basis, but it may not be superior if you want the mobility and convenience that wireless provides.

Any assessment of ''superiority'' depends on the requirements of each individual consumer and a ''one-solution-fits-all'' view was the inherent flaw in Conroy's NBN.

At the end of the day, a national high-speed broadband network is really all about access, convenience and affordability. What's the point of building the most expensive fixed broadband network if it can only be accessed from your home?

It makes more economic sense to provide a fixed broadband network that provides a basic high-speed service with fibre to the node, with the potential for high-end users of broadband to be able to upgrade to fibre from the node to the premises. And let's not forget that wireless will become the preference for all but the people who prolifically download content.

Frank Zumbo is an associate professor at the school of business law and taxation at the University of New South Wales.



Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/future-of-broadband-going-down-to-the-wire-20130702-2p9qq.html#ixzz2YECpCHD8


I wonder if there may be some changes in the wind?

 

[MB78]

I wonder if there may be some changes in the wind?

http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/story/1638348/nbn-roll-out-crisis-talks-in-tasmania-ballarat/?cs=2452

NBN roll-out crisis talks in Tasmania, Ballarat
By JONATHAN SWAN July 15, 2013, 1:19 p.m.
Contractors have also been told they must foot the bill for employees to complete mandatory asbestos training and a basic health check. Contractors have also been told they must foot the bill for employees to complete mandatory asbestos training and a basic health check.
Work has stopped on the national broadband network in Ballarat and Tasmania after a dispute with sub-contractors, as ongoing problems plague the network.

The Ballarat dispute – which escalated on Monday – comes on the same day as contractors in Tasmania are holding crisis talks that will determine whether they continue rolling out the NBN.

These disputes are part of a larger, and worsening, headache for NBN Co. Major contractors appear to be struggling financially and subcontractors are downing tools because they are angry about not being paid on time, or in some cases, not being paid enough, for their work.

The increasing number of contractual disputes raises questions about whether the cost of building the NBN – currently estimated at $37.4 billion – could blow out as the Coalition has been predicting.

On Monday, all work on the NBN in Ballarat, in regional Victoria, halted, after a second major sub-contractor downed tools in the space of two months. It is understood the two subcontractors, Australian Broadband Company and DIRECTBOR, are complaining about the same problem – that main contractor Transfield Services is not paying them on time.

A spokesman for Transfield Services said it was "factually incorrect" that the company had not been paying its sub-contractors on time, though he admitted that work had stopped in Ballarat due to the dispute.

Transfield Services is happy with its current contract arrangements with NBN Co, the spokesman said.

Also on Monday, crisis talks are being held in Hobart between as many as six subcontractors and the state's main NBN contractor, VisionStream. Fairfax Media understands the dispute – over timely payments – mirrors the clash in Ballarat.

It is understood the Hobart subcontractors are seriously considering withdrawing from the NBN rollout. VisionStream has not yet responded to Fairfax Media, but the Hobart crisis talks were confirmed by Tony Cook, the chief executive of the Civil Contractors Federation Tasmania.

Mr Cook said the contract disputes had noticeably slowed the rollout of the NBN in Tasmania.

"It's slow to say the least," Mr Cook said. "I have just driven into Hobart and certainly I'm not seeing a lot of activity as we did so a couple of months ago."

Sub-contractors in Tasmania were "hopeful" they could reach a resolution this week so they could continue building the network, Mr Cook said.

Opposition communications spokesman says his new ministerial counterpart, Anthony Albanese, "must immediately commit to an audit of the NBN rollout" following the latest reports about construction freezes.

"Labor cannot continue to say this project is running on time and on budget when contractors are losing money and subcontractors are walking away from work," Mr Turnbull said on Monday.

He pointed to the larger contractual problems afflicting the network.

NBN Co has yet to re-sign contractor Silcar for the rollout in NSW, Queensland and the ACT, despite a June 30 deadline to sign the contract. And in Western Australia and South Australia, the contractor Service Stream is in a trading halt on the ASX and has flagged a "material loss" on its NBN contract.

NBN contractual disputes are heating up across the country, according to David Mier, a national official at the Communications Electrical Plumbing Union.

''There will be meetings of subcontractors and the unions in the coming days in WA and Tassie regarding . . . financial issues,'' Mr Mier said.

NBN Co and Mr Albanese's office have been contacted for comment.



The above is no surprise at all. So no changes in the wind Willow, still cost blowouts, timeframe's that are not being adhered to, and zero accountability from the Government.

 

[Willo]

Just for "transparency" you'd think they'd give a up to date progress report with the number of homes actually connected (not "passed"), $ spent, etc
Makes you wonder why it's so hush hush.
But some wouldn't care what the cost is ..$50 billion, $70 billion+, so long as they can download movies a bit quicker. Any chance of some truth now Conroy's fled?

 

[Baloo]

Just for "transparency" you'd think they'd give a up to date progress report with the number of homes actually connected (not "passed"), $ spent, etc
Makes you wonder why it's so hush hush.
But some wouldn't care what the cost is ..$50 billion, $70 billion+, so long as they can download movies a bit quicker. Any chance of some truth now Conroy's fled?

Yeah, the NBN is all about downloading movies quicker.

 

[Willo]

Yeah, the NBN is all about downloading movies quicker.

Quick perusal would show the word "some" Baloo.

 

[Baloo]

Focusing on the most negative hypothetical example you can use to try and prove a point ? You're not Andrew Bolt are you ?

 

[Willo]

Focusing on the most negative hypothetical example you can use to try and prove a point ? You're not Andrew Bolt are you ?

Nothing hypothetical about it Baloo.
Merely mentioning what plenty of work mates have said. ie they don't care about the cost, as long as their movie download speed increases.
No I'm not, but I agree with some of his thoughts.

I notice you didn't comment on being "transparent' as to the progress or cost. Do you agree or disagree there should be?

 

[Baloo]

Nothing hypothetical about it Baloo.
Merely mentioning what plenty of work mates have said. ie they don't care about the cost, as long as their movie download speed increases.
No I'm not, but I agree with some of his thoughts.

I notice you didn't comment on being "transparent' as to the progress or cost. Do you agree or disagree there should be?

Of course they should be transparent, but that's not the point I'm calling you up on.

NBN is going to be one of the biggest enablers Australia has seen for a while. It will drag Australia back to the leading pack when it comes to internet connectivity and what that can deliver.

To brush it off as simply a means to download movies faster is rather disingenuous .

 

[MB78]

Of course they should be transparent, but that's not the point I'm calling you up on.

NBN is going to be one of the biggest enablers Australia has seen for a while. It will drag Australia back to the leading pack when it comes to internet connectivity and what that can deliver.

To brush it off as simply a means to download movies faster is rather disingenuous .

I accept that NBN is the best measure as the people in the know said it is. What I won't accept is the lack respect that we are currently getting form the Government and NBN co. It is a disgrace.

 

[Baloo]

I accept that NBN is the best measure as the people in the know said it is. What I won't accept is the lack respect that we are currently getting form the Government and NBN co. It is a disgrace.

Did the Goverment say transparency of the NBN rollout was a core promise, or just a promise ?

Governments aren't great at rolling out massive programmes. The public sector really don't have the experience to do it. But it needs to be Government run and funded so the population get the most benefit out of it without being bled dry.

But I'd rather have an NBN with sub-par transparency on it's rollout than any solution the Libs have put forward. Though I do think Malcolm is only towing the party line and he does know that FTTH is the way to go.

 

[Willo]

Of course they should be transparent, but that's not the point I'm calling you up on.

NBN is going to be one of the biggest enablers Australia has seen for a while. It will drag Australia back to the leading pack when it comes to internet connectivity and what that can deliver.

To brush it off as simply a means to download movies faster is rather disingenuous .

You can "call me up" on whatever you like.
I will emphasise the word again "some". Not everyone will use it either. But we've been through this before.

Here's a question (not doubting the speed advantage) but do you think ANY cost is acceptable?

 

[Willo]

I accept that NBN is the best measure as the people in the know said it is. What I won't accept is the lack respect that we are currently getting form the Government and NBN co. It is a disgrace.

it's not so much a matter of respect mate. They don't want the general public to know the real cost (^) or how much has been connected (v). Hence the secrecy. Arse covering at it's best.
Another "great idea" but unable to deliver as promised

 

[Willo]

Did the Goverment say transparency of the NBN rollout was a core promise, or just a promise ?

Governments aren't great at rolling out massive programmes. The public sector really don't have the experience to do it. But it needs to be Government run and funded so the population get the most benefit out of it without being bled dry.

But I'd rather have an NBN with sub-par transparency on it's rollout than any solution the Libs have put forward. Though I do think Malcolm is only towing the party line and he does know that FTTH is the way to go.

Yes it was. But a Gillard "promise" is worth, what?
Agree with the first part, but I believe the funds allocated will be dry before they get anywhere near completion.
Me, I'd rather FTTN for the "general populace", those who require more can pay for it to be installed themselves.

 

[Baloo]

Here's a question (not doubting the speed advantage) but do you think ANY cost is acceptable?

The cost of not getting Australia onto a decent internet speed would far outweigh the cost rolling it out could come too. Now, if you start talking in hypothetical extremes again and rattle off 1 Trillion Dollars as something I am condoning then there is no real pint in discussing it.

Yes it was. But a Gillard "promise" is worth, what?

Was it a promise, or a core promise ? Howard is the one that introduced the term. Promises are whats said in an elecction year to win votes, but not really something the government will do. Core promises are something they do intend to do.

Agree with the first part, but I believe the funds allocated will be dry before they get anywhere near completion.

The funds will never dry up because the government, no matter which party is in power, will add more funds. This is an infrastructure program benefitting all australians.

Me, I'd rather FTTN for the "general populace", those who require more can pay for it to be installed themselves.

Following on from the old dunny analogy, FTTN would be like running sewrage pipes down the middle of the street and only those that want to use it can pay for the piping to the home. Everyone else can still call in the septic cleaners to pump and desposit it down the street.

I reckon 10 years ago you would have thought the "general populace" wouldn't need that fancy 128Kb ADSL technology everyone was talking about. 56k dial would have be fine for most expect those pesky music downloaders.

 

[Brodders17]

Yes it was. But a Gillard "promise" is worth, what?

A Gillard 'promise' is worth a lot more than anything that comes out of Abbott's mouth.

on the NBN the choice appears to be spend a lot now on a system that will give great results and can be easily and cheaply upgraded in the future, or to spend less on a system that will bring limited benefits and will require constant expensive upgrading in the future. i know which i prefer.