Nathan (Axel) Foley [MERGED]

[Disco08]

Re: Nathan Foley

60 minutes a game would be fine if we had a couple of players as or more capable of winning clearances on a regular basis, but we don't. Giving Foley 100 minutes and giving someone else (Humm, Howat?) Foley's role sounds like a better idea to me.

Rayzor, I think you're way off the mark. If Foley's on the ground for roughly half a game, how is it that in your view he's only collecting his possesions against the '2nd/3rd midfield rotation'? You do realise the very best midfielders spend at least 100 minutes on the ball and that coaches don't rotate all their good players out of the middle at the same time don't you?

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: Nathan Foley

You seem to be missing the picture Rayzor - Foley is averaging 14 possession a game but not playing more than 60 minutes. That works out at about 28 possies for a full game which is OK in my book. I also disagree with your assessment that he plays against the second tier rotations. Usually starts on the pine but I notice Wallace inserts him when we need some centre clearances ususally when the game is in the balance. I think they can step him up a bit. I think he was viewed as a direct replacement for Campbell early on in the season but with Cogs out I think he can start playing 90 plus minutes per game. If he does, then, like Polo and Raines, he will give the rising star award a real shake!!

I wasn't taking issue with his average possessions lamb - overall they're good taken as an average - just the amount of times he's had very few (7 of 12 games he's had 10 or quite a few less). This means he's having some very good games and he's also going missing in quite a few, which would suggest to me that he's not yet gained the consistency needed to be a genuine first string midfielder as claw was suggesting. The major point though, is that like most young players who don't fall into the category of being natural athletes, he's simply not physically ready to spend any more time on the ball than he already is. Unlike most other potential midfielders, he can't really be played in a BP or on the HBF for a couple of seasons while his body matures, so we are taking the only other option available which is to limit his game time and choose beneficial matchups on appropriately sized, less than elite midfielders for him where at all possible.

Rayzor, I think you're way off the mark. If Foley's on the ground for roughly half a game, how is it that in your view he's only collecting his possesions against the '2nd/3rd midfield rotation'? You do realise the very best midfielders spend at least 100 minutes on the ball and that coaches don't rotate all their good players out of the middle at the same time don't you?

Of course I realise that midfielders are generally replaced individually and not all at once Disco, but there are ideal combinations which you use at the start of a match and at crucial times, and then there are the less ideal combinations - 2nd ruck, 2nd/3rd best insiders etc.

Foley is given a matchup he can handle wherever possible - against other midfielders who are not 1st string midfielders themselves. Can you think of any examples where he's spent significant game time directly opposed to a genuine 1st string midfielder? I can't think of any off hand and I doubt there would be more than a couple of isolated examples if that.

He's not spending all his ~60 mins on the ball either, at times on Sunday he was running with some fairly unlikely non-midfield opponents (Clement for example) and this happens for probably 20% of his total game time on average.

 

[gustiger12]

Re: Nathan Foley

Does Foley have the stamina to absorb more game time. Maybe they are just slowly working him into a position where he can have more game time. I am not saying this is the case as I don't know, but someone else maybe able to shed some light on this possibility.

 

[Disco08]

Re: Nathan Foley

He's not spending all his ~60 mins on the ball either

That just makes his ability to win clearances even more impressive. Despite his limited TOG, Foley is in the top 50 for total clearances so far this year. As I've said a couple of times now, if he was to carry this type of output through to games where he plays 100+ minutes (assuming, as Gus says, his endurance allows him to do it), he'll easily be in the top 10. In today's football, that makes him an incredibly valubuable player.

Also, considering that the best midfielders play in the middle, as Foley mostly does, I'm sure he's accumulated his stats against a variety of the best players in the league, whether directly opposed to them or not. They are all trying their best to win the football after all.

 

[lamb22]

Re: Nathan Foley

Dont know where you are getting your stats from Rayzor but Foley's posessions this year are

19, 13, 17, 10, 11, 18 ,12, 10, 9, 17, 11 and 20

9 or 10 posessions in 50 odd minutes is not a bad game!!!

Rayzor If he is actually averaging 28 possessions for 120 minutes game time, it means that on some days he averages much more. eg Sunday where he would have picked up close to 40 possession if he had played 120 minutes - comprende!

For a kid starting out these are phenomenal stats - added to the manner on which he gets the ball and the way he disposes by hand means he is a real gem. I doubt you would find more than 25 players in the league who have a better disposal to TOG ratio and not many 'elite' midfielders who would average 28 disposals a game!

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: Nathan Foley

Dont know where you are getting your stats from Rayzor but Foley's posessions this year are

19, 13, 17, 10, 11, 18 ,12, 10, 9, 17, 11 and 20

9 or 10 posessions in 50 odd minutes is not a bad game!!!

Rayzor If he is actually averaging 28 possessions for 120 minutes game time, it means that on some days he averages much more. eg Sunday where he would have picked up close to 40 possession if he had played 120 minutes - comprende!

For a kid starting out these are phenomenal stats - added to the manner on which he gets the ball and the way he disposes by hand means he is a real gem.  I doubt you would find more than 25 players in the league who have a better disposal to TOG ratio and not many 'elite' midfielders who would average 28 disposals a game!

You can't really equate figures for a partial game to 120 minutes - on that basis Mark McGough would have been the best ballgetter in the comp in 2004.

Not detracting from your argument though.

 

[lamb22]

Re: Nathan Foley

LTRTR - True some figures can be distorted but it is clear that Foley in games consistently gets a posession for every 4 - 5 minutes he is on the ground which means he is a 24 to 30 possession per full game player. When you consider that ball magnet and champ West averages a tick over 25 possessions over his career you get an indication of how good Foley could become - and I think Foley is slicker with his use of the ball, faster and a better kick!

Also watch him closely and you will see that it usually falls to Richmond's advantage when he attacks the ball even if he doesn't get the disposal - pressures the opposition, gets to the right spot often whether to get the ball or to assist the ball getter - plus lays a heap of tackles - would like to see him have a real solid pre season and get some definition in his body and work on his aerobic capacity and then watch out

 

[the claw]

Re: Nathan Foley

lets cut out all the bull *smile*.theres stats and stats and damn lies you can make stats serve whatever purpose you want. one fact is foley finds plenty of the ball with limited game time and generally uses the ball well when he gets it.here we have a kid who has a good motor. has good skill okay his kicking lacks a bit of depth.uses the ball well is quick over a short distance. and finds plenty of the ball. theres only one way to find out if he can find the ball for a full 100 to  120 minutes and thats play him.i ask what else does he have to do to get a decent amount of time on the field. again i say play the kid and give him the chance to show what he can do for a full game.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: Nathan Foley

Does Foley have the stamina to absorb more game time. Maybe they are just slowly working him into a position where he can have more game time. I am not saying this is the case as I don't know, but someone else maybe able to shed some light on this possibility.

Not at this stage Gus if we want him to still be contributing strongly at the end of the season and in years to come. Coughlan was a year ahead of Foley and probably more if you consider body mass when we gave him major onball time for an entire season...took a heck of a lot out of Cogs and he hasn't looked the same since. Injuries have affected him as well no doubt...but who's to say whether that midfield load too early caused or greatly aggravated his OP troubles. One thing's for sure, even last year (let alone 2004) he said he played much of a game literally dead on his feet. We've been careful not to do it (midfield overload too early) with any other young players since, so that fact speaks for itself IMO.

That just makes his ability to win clearances even more impressive. Despite his limited TOG, Foley is in the top 50 for total clearances so far this year. As I've said a couple of times now, if he was to carry this type of output through to games where he plays 100+ minutes (assuming, as Gus says, his endurance allows him to do it), he'll easily be in the top 10. In today's football, that makes him an incredibly valubuable player.

Top 50 clearances at each club averages out to slightly over three clearance players from each club (generalising...I know it doesn't work out exactly like that)...it's a bit like lauding a bloke that's ranked 31st in hitouts for the season IMO Disco. His clearances have been going quite well, but that's his primary skill/role and the almost sole reason he's there. He's going pretty well, I've said it countless times this season and I'm not arguing his worth - I started out merely stating why he is getting the game time he is.

Also, considering that the best midfielders play in the middle, as Foley mostly does, I'm sure he's accumulated his stats against a variety of the best players in the league, whether directly opposed to them or not. They are all trying their best to win the football after all.

You're missing what I'm getting at Disco, Foley isn't getting tagged yet like Tuck and Coughlan do, he isn't playing directly on blokes that at this stage will more often than not beat him to the ball standing shoulder to shoulder, and he's coming on with relatively fresh legs for most of his time out there.

IF in years to come he graduates to becoming a first class inside mid (as I think he has the potential to do), then he will be tagged, play shoulder to shoulder against the best and face onfield endurance issues he hasn't had to deal with too much yet.

He's not there yet - Wallace and the coaching staff know it and he's being handled accordingly (you lamb and claw are welcome to argue with them about it... ...I think they're handling him 100% effectively and giving him every chance he's able to handle ATM). The stats he has achieved do not at all reflect how he will go right now as a starting inside midfielder playing most of a game on the ball...they are some guide to what he MAY be able to achieve in that role in the future. It's not a case of "he's getting this in half a game - now double it for a full game"...not at all.

It's just like the graduation levels between being a young KP backman or defender...your output naturally changes when you go from playing half a game on the 3rd best to playing a full game on the outright best defender or forward.

------------------------

lamb, I just saw your post as I went to post this one, but I think I covered most of what I'd reply with in the response to Disco, except to say that I did accidentally include some of his 2005 games in his low possession tallies...my mistake, though his average of 13.8 possessions a game was correct.

I think most of his disposal in the centre has been quite good, but there's been plenty of 'fizzers' and scrambled possessions rather than genuine quality ones counted as stats in his totals as well...not that I don't think he'll improve on those as he gets more games under his belt.

 

[the claw]

Re: Nathan Foley

rayzor no offence but your full of it.to me most things are black and white. foley finds the ball has a good motor and generally uses the ball well. to me he has to be rewarded for his output and effort with more game time. as i said theres only one way to find out how he will go over the lenght of a full game and thats play him for 2 or 3 games with plenty of tog. pretty uncomplicated really.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: Nathan Foley

LOL...tell Wallace he's "full of it" claw...he'll give you the same explanation I have. You're welcome to your 'black and white' view mate, I'm just trying to explain Wallace's (and every other coach's) reasoning about young midfielders of certain body type for you so you don't burst from frustration and confusion wondering "why?" one of these weeks.

Honestly...some of you blokes must sit down with the form guide at carnival time and double the times of a horse's 1200m runs and extrapolate 20 length record breaking Caulfield Cup victories out of them.

 

[the claw]

Re: Nathan Foley

LOL...tell Wallace he's "full of it" claw...he'll give you the same explanation I have. You're welcome to your 'black and white' view mate, I'm just trying to explain Wallace's (and every other coach's) reasoning about young midfielders of certain body type for you so you don't burst from frustration and confusion wondering "why?" one of these weeks. 

Honestly...some of you blokes must sit down with the form guide at carnival time and double the times of a horse's 1200m runs and extrapolate 20 length record breaking Caulfield Cup victories out of them. 

so based on form and output do you personally think foley deserves an opportunity to show he can run out a full game. a simple yes or no will suffice.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Re: Nathan Foley

No.

 

[the claw]

Re: Nathan Foley

No.

yhank you for your no nonsense reply. i wont get into a long winded debate with you as it wqill ultimately drive me crazy.. but i will say you are wrong and assume much.

 

[Disco08]

Re: Nathan Foley

Top 50 clearances at each club averages out to slightly over three clearance players from each club (generalising...I know it doesn't work out exactly like that)...it's a bit like lauding a bloke that's ranked 31st in hitouts for the season IMO Disco. His clearances have been going quite well,

No, it isn't. Foley has gained his ranking while spending half as much time on the ground as basically everyone else on the list (and one less game). Isn't it pretty obvious that doubling his TOG will roughly double his stats? (As I said assuming his fitness will allow it). Now, have a look at the list I gave you the link to, start at the top and find a player you wouldn't gladly have on Richmond's list. Then slot Foley in at about #4 or 5 (where he'd be if the above is true) and tell me if you think his contribution is valuable or not.

 

[Dyer'ere]

Re: Nathan Foley


Why is it that the panel doesn't give Foley 120 minutes of game time? Is it just because they are mistaken?

What do they see in the 60 odd minutes that they don't like? (If anything)

Is there anything in his TOG that suggests that he should be rested/rotated?

How are Foley's opponents going? How often do they find themselves in space around the ground? Does he get lost? Is it because he lacks stamina or concentration? Is either weakness attributable to tiredness? Does he show either weakness?

Does he roll the dice too often? If he fluffs it, does he fix it?

How valuable are his clearances? (I've seen players like Dent and Atkin at Fitzroy rack up meaningless clearances.) Do his clearances hurt them? How bad? Does his opponent get extra clearances?

What is the panel asking him for? Is he delivering?

Is he being dragged for defensive oversights during games? Let's pay particular attention to when the bloke in the fluoro suit is going out to him.

Foley is the only bloke getting it out for us ATM. Why doesn't he get more game time? I'm going to watch him specifically along the lines mentioned above to find out.

 

[evo]

Re: Nathan Foley

It seems to me some of you blokes are getting your panties in a bunch over a load of nothing.

67 minutes is a substantial amount of game time for a rover with 18 senior games to his name.

A midfield rotation consists of between 7-10 players in modern AFL football,not 1 centreman,1rover and 1 ruckrover all playing 120 minutes.I'm sure you've noticed Foley is 5 foot nothing-His usefullness in being rested in the forward pocket with the chance of snagging a couple of goals(a la Tucky) is rather limited.Hence when he tires,he returns to the bench.

Top guys like Luke Ball or Daniel Kerr don't play 120 minutes in the guts,it's not physically possible.Why do you expect Foley shoud?

One of the Adelaide rotation midfielders, Thompson, is a fair bit more developed and talented than Foley and he currently starts every quarter on the bench.

Sometimes I wonder if some of you guys wont be happy till we have a starting 18,all under 21 playing 100% of the game.

Foley is getting more and more game time each week as would be expected for a guy only just starting at AFL level.Just relax and watch his development.

 

[johnson2richo2003]

Re: Nathan Foley

With Razor on this one.The coaching staff would well and truely know Foley,s capacity to runout a game or not through the data over the pre-season.Comforting thought for TW to have someone on the bench like Foley if the midfeild isnt firing.

 

[Leysy Days]

Re: Nathan Foley

evo my son, you've hit the nail fair n square on the head.

 

[Ghost of Punt Road]

Re: Nathan Foley

If he cant run out games, how did he have games last year with close to 50 posessions, with many in the last quarter?


I doubt with a full pre-season AFTER that he has lost fitness