Midfield setup, it’s not right!!!! | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Midfield setup, it’s not right!!!!

Leysy Days

Tiger Legend
Feb 26, 2004
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11,951
It’s leysy’s view that since Cogs has come back into our setup we are exposing ourselves around the clearances.

We are smashing teams in clearance numbers but are not turning these into goals.

Conversely our opponent is torching us when they break from a stoppage.

Sure there’s more to it, but for example we have had 6 more clearances over the past fortnight but have scored only 6 goals to 14 direct from stoppages in this time. 8 goals difference in two games is a hell of a lot.

Leysy’s reasons -

1) Quality of clearances – Jackson, Tuck & Cogs are all average by foot. You can carry the odd “clearance” specialist who is mediocre by foot so that he can feed the runners. But we have three that are spending the vast majority of the game on the ball. Not for leysy. You can add Foley into this kicking category, however he does add a different element to the setup as he can spread from a stoppage.

2) Run & Spread – When the opposition does break they are killing us by foot. They have the speed to run off our slow trio & create QUALITY clearances. Port for example who are setup too much the other way i.e soft, outside had Burgoyne, Pearce & Boak winning the clearances against us. We couldn’t go with them. Conversely we are unable to break free by foot so our “wins” from stoppages are typically a Tuck Light tower killer, a Cogs floater or an indiscriminate Jackson handball or kick to someone under as much pressure. There are too many of the same “type” to have the necessary skilled runners there to support them.

Doubt it will ever happen because clubs are so risk-free at trade time. But an exchange of any one of them to someone like Port for a long kicking (which we don’t have near enough of) outside mid like Pearce would be a win for both parties.

We desperately need the Chimp, Lids & more to be our prime midfielders to get us a better balance ILO. We will also need to make some hard decisions to our midfield setup which should see at least one of the Tuck, Cogs & Jackson spending a lot less time there. Also remember Thomson & Hislop are similar players we traded for last season that will be trying to push through.

Be Interesting to see how the new coach see’s things & what decisions he makes becuase ILO some tough one's will need to be made.

One thing leysy’s confident on, we’ll go nowhere with the nucleus we’ve got.
 
Leysy Days said:
One thing leysy’s confident on, we’ll go nowhere with the nucleus we’ve got.

Great post, totally agree Leysy. However I am happy with the fact we have some depth here now so we can make the write decisions and hopefully have something to trade with.
 
And we have Thompson and Sloppy waiting on the fringes.
 
Interesting post.

Do the stats suggest a change since Cogs return, or is that just when you first noticed it?
 
Good observations Maisy.

I'd still be giving Cogs the time he needs to adjust after so much time outa the game. You would have to say that Jacko is improving wouldn;t you?

How far can he improve is the big question? It will be interesting to see how any caretaker plays him.

Tuck is the vunerable one for mine. Relying on him as a mid has been more by drastic need than design. He's a great utility, plays hard and tall, and the sooner he is released to that the better for him and the team.

Lids is so important in this discussion. His capacity to reach elite midfielder is what alot hinges on. Cotchin, Foley, Lids and Cogs ain't too shabby if all play up to their potential, even without one of Thomson or Hislop hitting paydirt (think Thomson will once he can play injury free)

Collins is my midfield wild card. He looks slow but has that time and space element in hs game, and can deliver well. Still early days yet.
 
Agree 110%. This is the biggest area we need to fix. You cannot have all of Coughlan, Tuck and Jackson in the same team. Their contested possessions are getting us nowhere and it doesn't matter how hard they go in and have a dip. Their hurt factor is zero.

Our 3 best on-ballers are Deledio, Cotchin and Foley. Deledio is playing off half back or half forward, Cotchin has been injured and Foley gets the heavy tag every week. Why does Foley get a tag? Is it any wonder Tuck, Coughlan or Jackson never get tagged? It's in the opponents advantage that thse 3 get the ball. Add Johnson, Polo, White, Tambling, Thomson, Hislop to the midfield mix and you can see where we are at.
 
Leysy's just laying the groundwork for a Collins starting mid putsch. ;)
 
I suspect that it just as much to do with the fact that for the last two weeks the forward set up has revolved around Tambling, Morton, Brown, Nahas and Pettifer.

We've really only looked dangerous when Newman or Deledio has hit one of them lace out on the lead or when Simmonds/Graham has played full-forward for a few minutes.

Neither happens often enough to worry anyone.

Why has Newman been consistently left out of the primary midfield rotations by Wallace? Why has he not taken the opportunity to bring Thursfield or even Sylvester into the side and play either Moore or McGuane at CHF in the last two weeks? Why is Reivoldt at Coburg? Why not bring in another of the young ruckmen and play Simmonds as a permanent forward in Richo's absence, and maybe even prop one of the rucks in a pocket beside him for a few minutes?

On the midfield question, much as it is popular to want hard nuts, Leysy would know as well as anyone that skilful outside runners are even more important. Even McMahon would improve our chances of snagging a few more goals.
 
TOT70 said:
On the midfield question, much as it is popular to want hard nuts, Leysy would know as well as anyone that skilful outside runners are even more important. Even McMahon would improve our chances of snagging a few more goals.

McMahon kicked a few nice goals on the weekend, wouldn't surprise me to see Terry bring him in with Jack this week.
 
pharace said:
Tuck is the vunerable one for mine. Relying on him as a mid has been more by drastic need than design. He's a great utility, plays hard and tall, and the sooner he is released to that the better for him and the team.

Lids is so important in this discussion. His capacity to reach elite midfielder is what alot hinges on. Cotchin, Foley, Lids and Cogs ain't too shabby if all play up to their potential, even without one of Thomson or Hislop hitting paydirt (think Thomson will once he can play injury free)

Collins is my midfield wild card. He looks slow but has that time and space element in his game, and can deliver well. Still early days yet.

Problem is Tuck is bagging 10% of Richmonds clearances ATM so he has to stay.

I think if our mids had some options to kick to up the ground they would look a lot better. But you are right Leysy in regards to pace its the defensive side of our centrework which is the biggest problem at the moment. Even one more pacy (defensive) mid would make a difference. I think Jacko is holding his own in this regard.
 
Leysy Days said:
It’s leysy’s view that since Cogs has come back into our setup we are exposing ourselves around the clearances.

We are smashing teams in clearance numbers but are not turning these into goals.

Conversely our opponent is torching us when they break from a stoppage.

Sure there’s more to it, but for example we have had 6 more clearances over the past fortnight but have scored only 6 goals to 14 direct from stoppages in this time. 8 goals difference in two games is a hell of a lot.

Leysy’s reasons -

1) Quality of clearances – Jackson, Tuck & Cogs are all average by foot. You can carry the odd “clearance” specialist who is mediocre by foot so that he can feed the runners. But we have three that are spending the vast majority of the game on the ball. Not for leysy. You can add Foley into this kicking category, however he does add a different element to the setup as he can spread from a stoppage.

2) Run & Spread – When the opposition does break they are killing us by foot. They have the speed to run off our slow trio & create QUALITY clearances. Port for example who are setup too much the other way i.e soft, outside had Burgoyne, Pearce & Boak winning the clearances against us. We couldn’t go with them. Conversely we are unable to break free by foot so our “wins” from stoppages are typically a Tuck Light tower killer, a Cogs floater or an indiscriminate Jackson handball or kick to someone under as much pressure. There are too many of the same “type” to have the necessary skilled runners there to support them.

Doubt it will ever happen because clubs are so risk-free at trade time. But an exchange of any one of them to someone like Port for a long kicking (which we don’t have near enough of) outside mid like Pearce would be a win for both parties.

We desperately need the Chimp, Lids & more to be our prime midfielders to get us a better balance ILO. We will also need to make some hard decisions to our midfield setup which should see at least one of the Tuck, Cogs & Jackson spending a lot less time there. Also remember Thomson & Hislop are similar players we traded for last season that will be trying to push through.

Be Interesting to see how the new coach see’s things & what decisions he makes becuase ILO some tough one's will need to be made.

One thing leysy’s confident on, we’ll go nowhere with the nucleus we’ve got.


Here Here Maisey well said son ol son.
 
Mr Pumblechook said:
Interesting post.

Do the stats suggest a change since Cogs return, or is that just when you first noticed it?

Had concerns when Cogs first came back. Then Burgoyne took us to the cleaners in the last qtr to get them back in the game & we had no-one to go with him.
Essendon only confirmed leysy's concerns last week.

Its pretty obvious from the clubs trading that they never expected Cogs to return. Now that he has the dynamics have changed. Leysy doesn't believe that with the current players around him its for the better.

pharace said:
Good observations Maisy.

I'd still be giving Cogs the time he needs to adjust after so much time outa the game. You would have to say that Jacko is improving wouldn;t you?

Sure there improving individually. But is the team improving with them both in there??

pharace said:
Tuck is the vunerable one for mine. Relying on him as a mid has been more by drastic need than design. He's a great utility, plays hard and tall, and the sooner he is released to that the better for him and the team.

Lids is so important in this discussion. His capacity to reach elite midfielder is what alot hinges on. Cotchin, Foley, Lids and Cogs ain't too shabby if all play up to their potential, even without one of Thomson or Hislop hitting paydirt (think Thomson will once he can play injury free)

Collins is my midfield wild card. He looks slow but has that time and space element in hs game, and can deliver well. Still early days yet.

Yep fair enough.

Harry said:
Agree 110%. This is the biggest area we need to fix. You cannot have all of Coughlan, Tuck and Jackson in the same team. Their contested possessions are getting us nowhere and it doesn't matter how hard they go in and have a dip. Their hurt factor is zero.

Our 3 best on-ballers are Deledio, Cotchin and Foley. Deledio is playing off half back or half forward, Cotchin has been injured and Foley gets the heavy tag every week. Why does Foley get a tag? Is it any wonder Tuck, Coughlan or Jackson never get tagged? It's in the opponents advantage that thse 3 get the ball. Add Johnson, Polo, White, Tambling, Thomson, Hislop to the midfield mix and you can see where we are at.

Exactly Harry. Tuck & Jackson are both in the top 50 possession winners in the league. But its Deledio & then Foley that cop the tags. Thats not a coincidence. As you say there is no hurt factor.

Elmer said:
Leysy's just laying the groundwork for a Collins starting mid putsch. ;)

All in good time Mr Fudd. ;D

TOT70 said:
I suspect that it just as much to do with the fact that for the last two weeks the forward set up has revolved around Tambling, Morton, Brown, Nahas and Pettifer.

We've really only looked dangerous when Newman or Deledio has hit one of them lace out on the lead or when Simmonds/Graham has played full-forward for a few minutes.

Neither happens often enough to worry anyone.

Why has Newman been consistently left out of the primary midfield rotations by Wallace? Why has he not taken the opportunity to bring Thursfield or even Sylvester into the side and play either Moore or McGuane at CHF in the last two weeks? Why is Reivoldt at Coburg? Why not bring in another of the young ruckmen and play Simmonds as a permanent forward in Richo's absence, and maybe even prop one of the rucks in a pocket beside him for a few minutes?

You'll get no arguement from leysy about Wallets setup of the team & his development of players, especially in the forward half. Reiwoldts exclusion after kicking 6 the previous week for Coburg was shocking.

But that doesnt explain how Essendon can waltz in & kick 8 goals from just 26 clearances.

TOT70 said:
On the midfield question, much as it is popular to want hard nuts, Leysy would know as well as anyone that skilful outside runners are even more important. Even McMahon would improve our chances of snagging a few more goals.

Absolutely, the good teams however have well rounded players that can do both. We have very few of this ilk. Glass half full types as they are known on here. ;D

We've got a couple of youngsters that may well fill that breach.
 
Good post leysy, what thoughts do you have then on the recruitment of Thomson and Hislop to also play in the midfield?
 
They all need to watch tapes of Simon Black to see what's required. he gets the hard ball and the loose ball and he never wastes it.
 
Leysy Days said:
But that doesnt explain how Essendon can waltz in & kick 8 goals from just 26 clearances.

Don't get me started on what happens at the other end of the ground.

Wallace has been well-and-truly sorted out by every other coach in the AFL. They all concede Richmond the ball and collapse back deep into defence knowing that three things will happen. The midfield will not kick long to the forward line, the defence will push forward and the ball will be turned over, which is inevitable if you are fiddling around with it.

It leaves you half the field to control when you win it back and the Tigers are hopelessly out of positon, esp when Moore and McGuane try to become leading forwards for a few seconds. Even our best goal on the weekend, the Dean Polo shot on the run in the first quarter is instructive. What the hell is your half back flanker doing in the forward pocket?

Wallace,the Basketball guru, set about to revolutionise Footy with his innovative ideas, borrowing extensively from Basketball. In reality, he has been undone by the "fast Break ," the oldest trick in the book. I still use it every weekend with my daughter's B-grade U18 Girls team.

If it wasn't my footy club involved, I would think this to be both ironic and incredibly amusing.
 
i think that the figures show the midfield is working well.

Whats not working is the forward line. Time and time again we have the ball through the centre with no-one to kick to. Morton leads to the pocket and the rest are to small. When our best lead up forward in the last 2 weeks is 5"6' questions need to be asked WHY?

Is our forward line to small?
Do they work well together?
Why the flipping hell is Jack not in the team?
Why has Shulz never been left in the forward line for more than 5 minutes?

And the most important question.
Who is coaching the transitional football from the midfield to the forward line? or do they work to independant of each other?
 
Agree Leysy, our midfield is pretty stodgy.

Cannot understand for the life of me why Lids is not played more on the ball - he has great hands and can also provide a fast break for a receive (maybe he should handball to himself ;D)

Also, is Tuck not more versatile? Could he not play a role as a fiesty forward and chip in with a goal or two each week?

Many questions - all I know is that the coaches seem to be in a rut. I look forward to a new group shaking things up a bit.
 
Hungry said:
Also, is Tuck not more versatile? Could he not play a role as a fiesty forward and chip in with a goal or two each week?

And can take a reasonable grab, and is a pretty good set shot kick. Although haven't we got Morton, Brown, and Pettifer to play that role?

(Wallace may consider Tuck too tall for a KP fwd)
 
Hungry said:
Agree Leysy, our midfield is pretty stodgy.

Cannot understand for the life of me why Lids is not played more on the ball - he has great hands and can also provide a fast break for a receive (maybe he should handball to himself ;D)

Our starting midfield should be Lids, Foley and Tuck or Cogs, agree that both can't be in at the one time. With Jackson starting outside the square to come in as a tag, maybe Jackson should come in as a battering ram.
 
Yeah, Shamekha and Pumbles make good points - the overall structure sucks.

This small forward line issue has been a Wallace fetish since his time at the Dogs. Sure, it throws teams occassionally, but not for long.

We're also too small down back - why isn't Shulz playing CHB? He played his best footy down back, yet we persevere with him as a forward. I know he's ordinary but IMO his best games have been as a defender - maybe he's just one of those players who respond by being led to the ball, rather than having to work hard for it.

I dunno, and I suspect our coaches don't either...