Melbourne Publiic Transport Infrastructure | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Melbourne Publiic Transport Infrastructure

Short term the new state government needs to place an order for about 50 extra trains yesterday. They should also start grade seperation on some of the busiest level crossings because at the moment there is a limit imposed by VicRoads on the number of trains that can be run per hour on many lines.

Long term, train line to the airport (what self respecting city doesn't have this?), train line out to Doncaster and Rowville for starters plus that metro tunnel under the city should get the go ahead too.

As for the trams. Well they're stuffed and there isn't much that can be done about it. Adding more trams will just clog the roads. About all they can do is purchase bigger trams and maybe cut the number of stops on some lines. Extending lines out to Vermont and Doncaster etc is a useless gesture that solves nothing. Who wants to spend 75 minutes on a tram getting to and from work each day?
 
TigerFurious said:
Short term the new state government needs to place an order for about 50 extra trains yesterday. They should also start grade seperation on some of the busiest level crossings because at the moment there is a limit imposed by VicRoads on the number of trains that can be run per hour on many lines.

Long term, train line to the airport (what self respecting city doesn't have this?), train line out to Doncaster and Rowville for starters plus that metro tunnel under the city should get the go ahead too.

As for the trams. Well they're stuffed and there isn't much that can be done about it. Adding more trams will just clog the roads. About all they can do is purchase bigger trams and maybe cut the number of stops on some lines. Extending lines out to Vermont and Doncaster etc is a useless gesture that solves nothing. Who wants to spend 75 minutes on a tram getting to and from work each day?
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With what money? Do you really think if the previous government could have afforded it that they wouldn't have looked at purchasing new trains etc.
 
IanG said:
With what money? Do you really think if the previous government could have afforded it that they wouldn't have looked at purchasing new trains etc.
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Let's start with the money spent on 700 odd media advisers. Their salaries alone would be a decent down payment on a few extra trains.

The defining characteristic of the previous government was inaction. Given a choice between doing something and doing nothing they chose the latter whenever possible although if I had their record on major projects (MyKi, Desal Plant, Fast trains, north-south pipeline) I'd be inclined to sit on my hands too.

The money was always there if they really wanted to do it.
 
TigerFurious said:
As for the trams. Well they're stuffed and there isn't much that can be done about it. Adding more trams will just clog the roads. About all they can do is purchase bigger trams and maybe cut the number of stops on some lines. Extending lines out to Vermont and Doncaster etc is a useless gesture that solves nothing. Who wants to spend 75 minutes on a tram getting to and from work each day?
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one thing the footsrcray-caulfield train line could do is eliminate the swanston st-st kilda rd tram corridor that run between melbourne uni and st kilda junction. you would make trams 8 and 72 terminate at the at the domain, trams 3, 5, 6, 16, 64 and 67 terminate at st kilda junction, with these passengers to train it the rest of the way. that leaves the no. 1 tram left, and you could just run a shuttle between flinders st and south melbourne beach similar to the glenelg tram in adelaide.
 
TigerFurious said:
Short term the new state government needs to place an order for about 50 extra trains yesterday. They should also start grade seperation on some of the busiest level crossings because at the moment there is a limit imposed by VicRoads on the number of trains that can be run per hour on many lines.

Long term, train line to the airport (what self respecting city doesn't have this?), train line out to Doncaster and Rowville for starters plus that metro tunnel under the city should get the go ahead too.

As for the trams. Well they're stuffed and there isn't much that can be done about it. Adding more trams will just clog the roads. About all they can do is purchase bigger trams and maybe cut the number of stops on some lines. Extending lines out to Vermont and Doncaster etc is a useless gesture that solves nothing. Who wants to spend 75 minutes on a tram getting to and from work each day?
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Nobody wants to spend 75 minutes on a tram but some of us already spend 75 minutes on a TRAIN getting to work and back each day. Therein lies the problem for those of us in the outer suburbs. A train system that is still the same structure as it was 100 years ago. On the Frankston line there's only 1 line after Mordialloc. So no expresses after Mordy ( after Cheltenham in fact). The system needs trillions spent on it make it the system it needs to be. More lines/tracks, more expresses, less stations ( in some areas the front of the train is in the station ahead as the back of the train is in the last station they're that close!).
 
The problem is worse than needing to spend money on the rail though tim.

Given how many level crossings there are in Melbourne, to actually improve corridors with express trains, like the frankston and dandenong corridors, the government would need to grade separate the rail and road, otherwise the boom gates will be almost permanently down in some locations.
 
TigerFurious said:
Let's start with the money spent on 700 odd media advisers. Their salaries alone would be a decent down payment on a few extra trains.

The defining characteristic of the previous government was inaction. Given a choice between doing something and doing nothing they chose the latter whenever possible although if I had their record on major projects (MyKi, Desal Plant, Fast trains, north-south pipeline) I'd be inclined to sit on my hands too.

The money was always there if they really wanted to do it.
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The government actually spent lots on infrastructure when it was in power.

If you're looking to blame governments of the past for why we're in the situation we're in, look at the Cain\Kirner and the Kennett governments, who did nothing for rail infrastructure whilst in power.

The current governments (Bracks\Brumby and now Baillieu) will be playing catch-up on the works which weren't done during those 20 years or thereabouts.
There has been a lot of work over the past 7-8 years, particularly bringing older locations up to standard, in terms of both safety and capacity.

Brumbracks did upgrade works at Caulfield, Dandenong, Epping, Craigieburn Electrification, Broadmeadows, Newport, Laverton, Diamond Creek, Blackburn Rd Grade Separation, Springvale Rd Grade Separation (Nunawading), Fast Train projects (Bendigo, Ballarat, Traralgon, Geelong), Westall. There were many, many regional level crossings upgraded, not to mention freight line upgrades which were a joint federal\state and private enterprise arrangement, particularly improving access into our ports in Melbourne and Geelong.

That's just the ones I can remember sitting here in 5 mins.
 
The_General said:
The problem is worse than needing to spend money on the rail though tim.

Given how many level crossings there are in Melbourne, to actually improve corridors with express trains, like the frankston and dandenong corridors, the government would need to grade separate the rail and road, otherwise the boom gates will be almost permanently down in some locations.
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Indeed General, there's been a few cases of running the train line underground ( Middleborough rd Blackburn and Springvale rd). I guess they only wait until the problem becomes untenable before they act.
 
tigertim said:
Indeed General, there's been a few cases of running the train line underground ( Middleborough rd Blackburn and Springvale rd). I guess they only wait until the problem becomes untenable before they act.
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It ain't a cheap process. Each crossing costs tens of millions (off memory Springvale Road cost $140-150m). Given we have 170 of the things, just removing half of them would cost about ten billion
 
The_General said:
The government actually spent lots on infrastructure when it was in power.

If you're looking to blame governments of the past for why we're in the situation we're in, look at the Cain\Kirner and the Kennett governments, who did nothing for rail infrastructure whilst in power.
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yep. being a former westie, one example is the werribee line. the altona line was extended to werribee in 1984. from that day trains ran every 20 minutes in peak hour. it was only in the past 12-18 months that extra services have been added so trains run every 10 minutes in peak hour (which still isn't enough imo). so basically trains ran every 20 minutes in peak hour on the werribee line for the best part of 25 years before any changes were made. disgrace!!!

The_General said:
Brumbracks did upgrade works at Caulfield, Dandenong, Epping, Craigieburn Electrification, Broadmeadows, Newport, Laverton, Diamond Creek, Blackburn Rd Grade Separation, Springvale Rd Grade Separation (Nunawading), Fast Train projects (Bendigo, Ballarat, Traralgon, Geelong), Westall. There were many, many regional level crossings upgraded, not to mention freight line upgrades which were a joint federal\state and private enterprise arrangement, particularly improving access into our ports in Melbourne and Geelong.
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spot on. you can criticise the previous govt all you like, but they did morre for public transport infrastructure than any other state govt in a generation
 
From memory, public transport patronage had been falling until around the mid-late 90's plus the state was nearly bankrupt until Kennet took over so there are some very good reasons why public transport infrastructure was neglected.

What is not excusable is that the Bracks government set out a plan very early on to double public transport patronage but didn't come close to providing the infrastructure to cope.
 
ZeroGame said:
The "fast trains" didn't exactly acheive much though, did they?
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The problem is not the Trains themselves.The problem is once the Country trains get into the Metro area.Inparticular on the Bendigo,Ballarat and Taralgon services.The Ballarat and Bendigo issue is being addressed with plans to use the Dynon Goods line[The same as the XPT is using] between South kensington and Sunshine there for getting off the overcrowded St.Albans line.Inturn those on the St.albans line will also benefit with extra services due to no Country trains[During peak hours].Hence the Werribee>>>Sunshine Loop line to go ahead.
For those on the Taralgon line,There were plans to go with a 3rd line from Caulfield to Dandy.However the bean counters couldn,t jusitfy the cost for a sevice that runs only every hour,so its been scrapped.
 
tigertim said:
Indeed General, there's been a few cases of running the train line underground ( Middleborough rd Blackburn and Springvale rd). I guess they only wait until the problem becomes untenable before they act.
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Quite the contrary Tim.

I know Middleborough Rd was done first as a bit of an experiment. They wanted to do one of the "smaller" crossings on that corridor (the most frequently used in Melbourne), to see how it would plan out. They are massive logistical exercises, as you want to relocate a very large section of railway in a couple of weeks. That's before the infrastructure of the trains can be added for them to run. It was carefully planned, and they used that project as a learning experience for bigger jobs, like Springvale Rd (which was the worst crossing in the state at the time).

I don't know what the plans are for more grade separation now the gov't has changed, but I'd expect the next few to be out on the Dandenong corridor. The plans for the third line have been hindered due to the amount of level crossings. There's speculation that some crossings would barely be open during peak hour, due to the frequency of trains, making it untenable to add the third line until grade separation is done. Purely my opinion, not stating any government policy at all btw.

Grade separations are hard to do, as they require alliances across several engineering disciplines and are very expensive. I don't know about other disciplines, but I work in rail. There is a shortage of skilled engineers in the industry. I'm sure governments (not only here, but overseas as well), are being restrained somewhat by the lack of capable resources, as well as political pressures to keep budgets in surplus.
 
TigerFurious said:
From memory, public transport patronage had been falling until around the mid-late 90's plus the state was nearly bankrupt until Kennet took over so there are some very good reasons why public transport infrastructure was neglected.

What is not excusable is that the Bracks government set out a plan very early on to double public transport patronage but didn't come close to providing the infrastructure to cope.
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TigerFurious said:
From memory, public transport patronage had been falling until around the mid-late 90's plus the state was nearly bankrupt until Kennet took over so there are some very good reasons why public transport infrastructure was neglected.

What is not excusable is that the Bracks government set out a plan very early on to double public transport patronage but didn't come close to providing the infrastructure to cope.
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Not sure if you intend it TF, but the issue is a cross party one. No government before Bracks had spent much on rail infrastructure. Patronage had been falling, partly due to the fact that governments had been building better roads as part of their transport policy (Ring roads and Citylink anyone?) and people saw it easier to get to work by car. The frequency of most train services in Melbourne was 20mins, sometimes 15 in the peak. Trains to Ringwood had a higher frequency due to the level of patronage and supporting infrastructure to support it.

Obviously the biggest change that public transport faced was the cost of oil going up. It became untenable for some people to pay for petrol, tolls and parking to get to work. So they decided to train\tram it instead. Problem is we didn't have the infrastructure in place to deal with it. Governments in most countries have been caught out by that fact. Eg until recently, train services in New Zealand stopped at 7.30 each night due to low demand, this has changed in the last few years.

The fact that the state was nearly bankrupt until Kennett took over, doesn't mean spending couldn't have been made on better public transport. It would have meant cuts to spending elsewhere however.

Bracks and Brumby's plan is still underway. There's works going on all over Metropolitan Melbourne, to add enough yards to store all the new trains they've bought. Unfortunately, until these yards are completed (they've been underway for 2years+) there's not enough places to store them, or maintain them. If you're patient though, you'll see most of these completed by next year - all works that were started by Brumbracks.
 
The Fish said:
Had my first illegal pub pot of beer in the Savoy. Used to be packed with commuters. In those days the only other bar was that old one upstairs at the station. Only derros would drink in there.

Another shocking city site is the old city square. It's better than it used to be, but you would think they could do better with that space.

That bit down the Spencer st end of Flinders is really ordinary although there's a good little bar just opened there which has live music - Bertha's Bar.
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Yep not a bad lil joint
 
Good to see that the government is looking at scrapping myki. Sure, we have ploughed a lot of money into it, but there is no point in sending good money after bad.
 
ZeroGame said:
Not only looking at scrapping Miki, but looks like the new Melbourne to Werribee line could also be scrapped after a $880 million blowout in costs. Labor incorrectly costed the signalling and didn't include two required overpasses in Sunshine. Interestingly the Public Transport Users Association are backing the scrapping of the project.

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/blowout-puts-rail-project-in-doubt-20110203-1afgx.html#poll
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bugger. hope it's not scrapped. it's a vital project.
 
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