Melbourne Publiic Transport Infrastructure

[Liverpool]

Ive got a theory that a Bubble-o-Bill is modelled off Karl Marx's face. Thats valid.

I asked a question to see what you and Knighters could come up with as an alternative to my idea, seeing as you both vehemently oppose it.

I will assume that with none forthcoming, you have no ideas and therefore I'll give your childish posts a miss and now wait for someone who has enough intellect and education to give a decent response.

Thanks for your contribution to the thread though.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

I asked a question to see what you and Knighters could come up with as an alternative to my idea, seeing as you both vehemently oppose it.

I will assume that with none forthcoming, you have no ideas and therefore I'll give your childish posts a miss and now wait for someone who has enough intellect and education to give a decent response.

Thanks for your contribution to the thread though.

The fact that you really like your idea doesn't make it valid or reasonable and you haven't mentioned how you would actually do it. Much like the slow and steady approach needed to combat climate change avoiding the necessary investment in infrastructure now will only make it more expensive in the future. My suggestion which I really like and think is valid is that they should start now. Reserves need to be acquired to allow for new lines and duplication of existing ones. Successive governments complain about the cost but the problem can't be avoided and the land only gets more expensive. Public transport is absolutely essential and is a fundamental responsibility of a state government

 

[Liverpool]

My suggestion which I really like and think is valid is that they should start now. Reserves need to be acquired to allow for new lines and duplication of existing ones. Successive governments complain about the cost but the problem can't be avoided and the land only gets more expensive. Public transport is absolutely essential and is a fundamental responsibility of a state government

No argument at all there with what you say.

However, even if the Government listen to your suggestion and go hell for leather (putting the financial stability of the state in jeopardy, but thats another matter)....the population growth is more than what we can afford to build.

For example, added a new lane to WestGate Bridge (still walking pace during peak hour), Bolte Bridge is 14 years old (walking pace and has been for years now), Burnley/Domain tunnels....Weestern Ring Road is constantly being 'upgraded' but always over-busy regardless...even the new PeninsulaLink is chocca at peak times.

Our investments aren't making inroads, thats the problem.
If anything, we are going backwards so there needs to be some other initiative so the investments the Government makes do start to make a difference to congestion.
Its not going to be solved by just spending lots and lots of money.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

No argument at all there with what you say.

However, even if the Government listen to your suggestion and go hell for leather (putting the financial stability of the state in jeopardy, but thats another matter)....the population growth is more than what we can afford to build.

For example, added a new lane to WestGate Bridge (still walking pace during peak hour), Bolte Bridge is 14 years old (walking pace and has been for years now), Burnley/Domain tunnels....Weestern Ring Road is constantly being 'upgraded' but always over-busy regardless...even the new PeninsulaLink is chocca at peak times.

Our investments aren't making inroads, thats the problem.
If anything, we are going backwards so there needs to be some other initiative so the investments the Government makes do start to make a difference to congestion.
Its not going to be solved by just spending lots and lots of money.

It is telling that this is a Public Transport discussion and all of your examples are roads, Maslow's hammer? If all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail? (Seems to be the guding principle of all the state conservatives ATM austerity is the answer to all issues)Where is this ongoing investment in Public Transportation Infrastructure that you keep mentioning? So far you argument is mundanely predictable it is an excuse to do nothing. By the way how are you going to slow population growth?

 

[Brodders17]

For example, added a new lane to WestGate Bridge (still walking pace during peak hour), Bolte Bridge is 14 years old (walking pace and has been for years now), Burnley/Domain tunnels....Weestern Ring Road is constantly being 'upgraded' but always over-busy regardless...even the new PeninsulaLink is chocca at peak times.

Our investments aren't making inroads, thats the problem.

Our investments in roads arent making inroads.
Perhaps governments need to look at ways to encourage people off roads.

 

[AngryAnt]

Our investments in roads arent making inroads.
Perhaps governments need to look at ways to encourage people off roads.

Give that man a cigar.

 

[tigergollywog]

I asked a question to see what you and Knighters could come up with as an alternative to my idea, seeing as you both vehemently oppose it.

I will assume that with none forthcoming, you have no ideas and therefore I'll give your childish posts a miss and now wait for someone who has enough intellect and education to give a decent response.

Thanks for your contribution to the thread though.

You didnt like my bubble-o-bill communist gag? there was some deep symbolism in it Livs.

FWIW=0, I got more degrees than a yankee thermometer.

Thanks for your warm thanks though.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Still no sign Livers explanation of how he would limit population growth? :-X

 

[tigergollywog]

Still no sign Livers explanation of how he would limit population growth? :-X

I heard Livs is on the gold coast at the 'Intellectual featherweights: We know we're right!' conference.

Im guessing when he gets back, he'll have concise solution to the problem, and it'll rhyme with 'chop the goats'.

 

[AngryAnt]

Livers other best known strategy is "wait for the rest of the world to do it, assess whether it works or not over a 5-10 year period, then maybe think about doing it". He's a radical innovator is old Liverpools.

 

[Ian4]

another push for the airport link in todays Hun.

what are peoples opinions on this? i personally think the skybus service is reasonable for now. i'm not saying an airport link shouldn't be built... i just think the metro rail tunnel (among a few other projects) should be built first.

 

[evo]

another push for the airport link in todays Hun.

what are peoples opinions on this? i personally think the skybus service is reasonable for now. i'm not saying an airport link shouldn't be built... i just think the metro rail tunnel (among a few other projects) should be built first.

Agree. ]t would be great to have it but reckon there is more pressing issues. From a somewhat self interested point of view, still think a Doncaster train link is a much bigger priority.

 

[Liverpool]

Our investments in roads arent making inroads.
Perhaps governments need to look at ways to encourage people off roads.

Still no sign Livers explanation of how he would limit population growth? :-X

I answered but I see my post was never put onto the board.

I will type it again however.

Firstly, the investments not making inroads is not just aimed at road transport, it goes for public transport as well.

Over the last 20 years, we have had new trains, new stations built, extensions of lines, electrification of some lines, more services.....yet congestion is as bad as ever during the week (especially at peak times).

We simply cannot afford to bring the transport system (road and rail) from the level we are now to a level that is ahead of the expected population growth.
There needs to be further initiatives that go along with the investment.
I have offered population control as part of the solution.....it seems yourselves disagree...but I am not seeing any alternative ideas from any of you, apart from a few personal jibes??


The second question is very easy.
Firstly we need to control our immigration much better.
We need to look at the numbers we allow in each year and also encourage with incentives to get these people to move into regional areas when they do arrive.

We need incentives also for companies (and universities) to move offices and operations to these regional areas, to try and dilute population in metropolitan areas and encourage growth in these regional areas.
This may also help local economies.

Its not an easy fix and I am not saying its the perfect answer, but I think its something to think about and consider and also its more than anyone else on this thread has put forward.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

The second question is very easy.
Firstly we need to control our immigration much better.
We need to look at the numbers we allow in each year and also encourage with incentives to get these people to move into regional areas when they do arrive.

We need incentives also for companies (and universities) to move offices and operations to these regional areas, to try and dilute population in metropolitan areas and encourage growth in these regional areas.
This may also help local economies.

Its not an easy fix and I am not saying its the perfect answer, but I think its something to think about and consider and also its more than anyone else on this thread has put forward.

Not much substance there Livers. Control immigration how? What would you change? Incentives to move to regional area? What incentives? There is already a system that prioritises skilled migrants who will settle in regional areas. Investment in public transport infrastructure hasn't made inroads because it has been woefully inadequate and reactionary. Not one line duplication. No new lines. Doncaster? Rowville? Adding trains without adding tracks is pointless. It simply clogs the system. No new infrastructure to remove the bottleneck created by Flinders St and Southern Cross. Mass transit is the only way to move large numbers of people efficiently in a modern city. Roads are not the answer. They never have been. The hardware is the Government's responsibility. They haven't, any of them, had the sack to take on the hard task of large scale works.

 

[Liverpool]

Not much substance there Livers. Control immigration how? What would you change? Incentives to move to regional area? What incentives? There is already a a system that prioritises skilled migrants who will settle in regional area. Investment in public transport infrastructure hasn't made inroads because it has been woefully inadequate and reactionary. Not one line duplication. No new lines. Doncaster? Rowville? Adding trains without adding tracks is pointless. It simply clogs the system. No new infrastructure to remove the bottleneck created by Flinders St and Southern Cross. Mass transit is only efficient way to move large numbers of people efficiently in a modern city. Roads are not the answer. They never have been. The hardware is the Government's responsibility. They haven't, any of them, had the sack to take on the hard task of large scale works.

That's fine...you disagree...but again I ask, instead of "get on with it"...what are we getting on with? whats your idea and plan?

Pretty easy sitting up in the bleachers throwing down a few hand grenades when someone says something you disagree with, but there isn't much coming the other way regarding a solution.

I agree, we need more infrastructure....but even Blind Freddy knows that.
The Government have to abide by their budget constraints and therefore we simply cannot afford to build infrastructure from where we are not to a level that can cope with a future population.
We need other initiatives to work alongside the building the infrastructure part.

Over to you sir...looking forward to what you have to offer us.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

That's fine...you disagree...but again I ask, instead of "get on with it"...what are we getting on with? whats your idea and plan?

Pretty easy sitting up in the bleachers throwing down a few hand grenades when someone says something you disagree with, but there isn't much coming the other way regarding a solution.

I agree, we need more infrastructure....but even Blind Freddy knows that.
The Government have to abide by their budget constraints and therefore we simply cannot afford to build infrastructure from where we are not to a level that can cope with a future population.
We need other initiatives to work alongside the building the infrastructure part.

Over to you sir...looking forward to what you have to offer us.

Just excuses to do nothing Livers. Yes it is a momentous task, because it has been neglected for so long. The answer is not to find a cheap half-arsed non-solution. Do some busy work (more committees, plans and public meetings) and hope no one notices. It requires immediate action to begin the long task of upgrading the public transport network with major works. Of course they can build the network to a sufficient standard, not in their term they can't. But the process must START. It will take decades but it must start. Commit to the works and start the process and legislate it so that following governments are forced to complete the works. The City of Melbourne has capacity to expand like few other modern cities so the work will probably never be finished. But not doing anything and playing around the edges of the issue by talking about population control is not a solution. It is a distraction.

First step start acquiring the land already identified in umpteen reports for duplication. Start the works on the already reserved area for a line to Doncaster. Do the work to assess whether an underground outer ring can be built to crosslink the network and perhaps include the outer South Eastern suburbs that house the highest population of the city without practical access to the public transport network. When you remove the bottleneck at Flinders and Southern Cross you can run many multiples of the number of trains and begin to achieve a Tube-like train every few minutes. That cannot be achieved with the current system....ever. It is not a scheduling and number of trains issue. It is an infrastructure issue. It has to be built....eventually. But the longer you skirt around the edges of the issue the more expensive the works get. The sooner you start the better chances of mitigating the cost.

 

[TigerForce]

Don't think it'll ever happen KR. I was a kid at the time it was built, but read a few years ago that it took too many years to build a small (and yet useless) City Loop. Why have these previous govts been so stubborn??

 

[evo]

But not doing anything and playing around the edges of the issue by talking about population control is not a solution. It is a distraction.

totally agree.

People have to come to terms with the fact that whether the like it or not over the next 2 decades we are going to become a highly populated city maybe 6 million people. We have to start thinking like the London, Hong Kongs, Singapores etc

First step start acquiring the land already identified in umpteen reports for duplication. Start the works on the already reserved area for a line to Doncaster. Do the work to assess whether an underground outer ring can be built to crosslink the network and perhaps include the outer South Eastern suburbs that house the highest population of the city without practical access to the public transport network. When you remove the bottleneck at Flinders and Southern Cross you can run many multiples of the number of trains and begin to achieve a Tube-like train every few minutes. That cannot be achieved with the current system....ever. It is not a scheduling and number of trains issue. It is an infrastructure issue. It has to be built....eventually. But the longer you skirt around the edges of the issue the more expensive the works get. The sooner you start the better chances of mitigating the cost.

yep. It just takes will.

 

[Tommo37]

There were 2 terrible performances last night,

1. The RFC for that rubbish on the field.

2. Metro for not having any trains at Richmond station after the game and waiting 20 minutes for the first train to arrive and then not being able to get on that due to the platforms being packed solid and having to wait even longer for the next train and struggling to get on that. :thumbdown

 

[Liverpool]

Just excuses to do nothing Livers. Yes it is a momentous task, because it has been neglected for so long. The answer is not to find a cheap half-arsed non-solution. Do some busy work (more committees, plans and public meetings) and hope no one notices. It requires immediate action to begin the long task of upgrading the public transport network with major works. Of course they can build the network to a sufficient standard, not in their term they can't. But the process must START. It will take decades but it must start. Commit to the works and start the process and legislate it so that following governments are forced to complete the works. The City of Melbourne has capacity to expand like few other modern cities so the work will probably never be finished. But not doing anything and playing around the edges of the issue by talking about population control is not a solution. It is a distraction.

First step start acquiring the land already identified in umpteen reports for duplication. Start the works on the already reserved area for a line to Doncaster. Do the work to assess whether an underground outer ring can be built to crosslink the network and perhaps include the outer South Eastern suburbs that house the highest population of the city without practical access to the public transport network. When you remove the bottleneck at Flinders and Southern Cross you can run many multiples of the number of trains and begin to achieve a Tube-like train every few minutes. That cannot be achieved with the current system....ever. It is not a scheduling and number of trains issue. It is an infrastructure issue. It has to be built....eventually. But the longer you skirt around the edges of the issue the more expensive the works get. The sooner you start the better chances of mitigating the cost.

And how do we fund all this?

What you've given is a wish-list and I don't think anyone here, including myself, disagrees with what you've mentioned.

But the reality is, its not going to happen for a long time and when it does, its going to be over a long period of time, as the sitting Government will need to be financially responsible as well as fund other sectors as well.

In the meantime, while all this gets built over the next 20-30 years...its just business as usual then? we don't need to look at other initiatives to help?