Just as a general guide general over a period of time - I accept that there is standard deviation on quality but that would apply to all teams.
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Matthew Clarke
- Thread starter Harry
- Start date
May. It's way harder to find a forward that can kick 30 goals a season at 20 than a back flanker. Back flankers are dime a dozen. Aint got one? Chuck your speedy forward pocket there.
Been looking at JVR's numbers for a 20 year old. Tracks on par with Tex Walker, Jack Riewoldt, Tom Hawkins, Charlie Curnow and Aaron Naughton.
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Jack Higgins would have played every game for us this year....
Yeh, HBF are almost created from "failure" in another position. They just need some speed, aerobic capacity, ability to read the play and decent ball use. You add some courage and you have your Vlas/Grimes/Broad type.
Sure. has the best midfield in the comp delivering it too him. Not saying he is not good...he is a very good. but numbers maybe a little bit better because of the delivery.
If that helps you sleep at night. Go with that.
So this. 100% spot on. And even if we pick key forwards, there's no promises we will get the one we want right away.
But you got to pick them.
Ultimately I guess it’s ladder position and premierships.
No we didn't. We picked a player to fill the gap on the list. It matched a strategy we had at the time. It is far too early to say
we picked the wrong player.
This is a really, really immature way to look at this....Maybe we shouldn't have taken Gibcus, maybe we should have taken Hobbs.
We didn't need Key backs and we did need inside Mids.
Then we wouldn't have had to trade for hopper and taranto, and we'd have two other kids instead.
This type of commentary is narrow focussed, has no understanding of the strategy the club has towards list management. It reeks of the same whataboutism
that was around when Frank was our list manager. The same cries of why didn't we take xyz instead. I think The Mole gave us the best indication of what
is going on earlier in this thread. We need to have more open minds than we need x, therefore y was wrong - especially 2 years after drafting the kid.
We had Butler Rioli Castagna Bolton why when we have a first round pick would we go get another small type forward ? Ludicrous
Yes now maybe , but we should have kept Butler to in hindsight ? ?
Yeah but he couldn’t get a game when we had plenty of other small forwards hence he left , that pick should have been on a mid , why when we had 4 other small forwards waste a first rounder on another small forward , hence wasted pick
Did we waste a first round pick on Baker ? He was a rookie pick
We wasted a first rounder on a small forward when we had plenty at the time
It’s an argument for taking best available though.
If we had too many small forwards to use take Higgins then we also had too many small forwards to draft Baker a day later, (which is what posters complain about during Bakes’ first couple pages)
When he was essentially still in recovery from brain surgery.
He started Round 1 in his first year (2018), the first game he could play after the GF when we had Rioli, Bulter and Castagna playing so I don't buy the "he couldn't get a game" argument.
Higgins was the right pick IMO, was touted as a top 10 draft pick before the draft, slid to us and looks every bit the 200 game player that you'd want to be drafting at that level. Just because thats not with us, you can't claim that it was a poor pick. It was a good pick and he did play and gave us something different. He then had the issues with his brain and then he boned us. Simple as that.
He actually debuted in rd 3, but you point is right. He played 20 games for the team that finished clear on top in his 1st season, and was one of our best players across our 2 finals. The following year he played every game until his brain popped. He then struggled on return on 2020, but still played plenty. He ahs since played pretty much every game for the Saints.
Higgins is one of the few ex- Tigers i dont really like, but he is a good footballer.
It is also interesting, the most common complaints are that we didnt pick Taylor or Allen before Higgins. They, along with Tim Kelly, are probably the only clearly better players than Higgins taken before pick 30.
The WEagles picked Brander before Allen- his career is over. (Many on here would have been very happy with Brander.)
The Giants picked Bonnar before Taylor- his career may as well be over. and
The Cats pick Fogarty before Kelly. He is a nothing player.
The 2017 draft was very hit and miss through the first 30 or so, some real quality but also plenty of misses.
Yeah nice speech, but the fact remains that we had Jack on his last legs, Lynch heading to the wrong side of 30 and we didn’t address it.
I’ll argue all day that that’s poor list management.
I read people saying that we draft for need. Really!! Well how bad does our need for a key forward have to get before we do something about it?
I’d argue that for key forwards you have to draft players with a view to a longer development time given the bigger blokes generally take a bit longer to develop and the fact they play the hardest position in the game.
You don’t wait until the cupboard is bare before addressing the situation. Other roles are much easier to address and can be done on the run but key positions players should be a priority. Build the spine and you’re well on your way to being contenders again.
But the cupboard isn't bare. Its not as full as we'd like it be, fair enough, but its just not possible to have perfect plans in place, and perfect execution, for all aspects of list management, especially when you are in transition from a dominant period.
Over half the comp doesn't have a 'new Jack' on their list, despite their best efforts, whether its through poor planning or sound planning that hasn't worked out. They'd all kill to have Tom Lynch on their lists though.
There are usually multiple valid structural reasons why any given side has a bad or moderate list weakness, and every side has them.
And also, just because a plan didn't work out doesn't mean it was a poor plan. 99% of PRE was on board with our plan to annex another flag this year, plenty of pundits were convinced, it didn't work out, but it was a good plan.
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I understand this but you’ve got to have priorities. You can’t ignore the fact that you’re very thin for key forwards just because it’s the hardest area to solve.
I would prefer we take a punt on a Van Rooyen or similar, even as a stop gap measure whilst you try to get a more permanent solution. Surely taking a punt on a key forward is better than doing nothing at all.
I have nothing against Brown, in fact I hope he makes it as a player. What I struggle with is stockpiling players for positions that are easier to fill whilst more important areas of the ground appear to be overlooked.
Maybe I’m too old school, but I’m of the belief that you build your team around the spine. Get that right and you’re going to be very competitive against any opponent.
So are you aware of our list management strategy?
Do you think it's possible they expect Bauer, Samson, Biggy to play up forward? There was some commentary that Gibcus was going to be used up forward as well. If our next generation
Forwards around Lynch are Gibcus and Bauer, are we still in desperate need for JVR? On the expectation we'd have had Himmelberg for a while until those guys developed, is there such an urgent crisis? We were clearly talking to him. If he came, where are all the spots at VFL level to develop the kids?
