Marriage Equality

[Brodders17]

I don't consider the government as legitimate, which is a prerequisite to forming an answer to your question.

ok. so you wont be voting at all? at least that is consistent.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Yes, correct ant, it is one of the areas that does cause me mixed feelings. Additionally the emboldened LBGTIQ professional political lobby (as distinct from gay & lesbian people on an individual level) using this particular issue as an opportunity precondition society to unquestionably believe future demands, no matter how far fetched, are also a fight for fundamental rights.

But then part of me thinks (given we are talking professional activists who's livelihoods depend on perpetual perceived injustice and an incessant navel gazing obsession with sexuality and gender identity politics) they'll be claiming perpetual injustice and struggle whether they have SSM or not. And the longer this gets drawn out, the bigger their platform. Nearly like, "you bigots held out so long on SSM, you now owe us this and this and this as well." So just get it done in an effort to cut their grandstand out from underneath them.

This is pretty close to my position except I think the "lobby" is smaller and less powerful than it appears. Just very good at getting on the telly or into the pages of "The Guardian" or "New Matilda".

 

[AngryAnt]

Yes, correct ant, it is one of the areas that does cause me mixed feelings. Additionally the emboldened LBGTIQ professional political lobby (as distinct from gay & lesbian people on an individual level) using this particular issue as an opportunity precondition society to unquestionably believe future demands, no matter how far fetched, are also a fight for fundamental rights.

But then part of me thinks (given we are talking professional activists who's livelihoods depend on perpetual perceived injustice and an incessant navel gazing obsession with sexuality and gender identity politics) they'll be claiming perpetual injustice and struggle whether they have SSM or not. And the longer this gets drawn out, the bigger their platform. Nearly like, "you bigots held out so long on SSM, you now owe us this and this and this as well." So just get it done in an effort to cut their grandstand out from underneath them.

Fair enough PT. I'd look past the overtly political grandstanding and think about how individuals are affected first, but everyone has to make their own choice.

 

[MD Jazz]

On a personal level, I'd love to see my gay family member's relationship valued by society in the same way as heterosexual couples.

sounds convenient and made up

 

[Panthera Tigris]

sounds convenient and made up

Actually have a gay brother for your info. And he shares my dislike for the flag waving LBGTIQ political lobby. They kind of make him cringe - nearly like he sees them as a handicap to 'minimalist' gay people like himself who just want to be accepted and get on with life, not obsessively cultivate an identity based purely around sexuality.

But hey, suppose that is made up? Anyway you don't know me, so you think what you like. I respectfully put forward my reason for why I have mixed feelings and cop this *smile*. This is what is so wrong with a lot of this discussion. The dominant narrative is, agree with LBGTIQ political issues unquestionably with flag waving fervour, or you are, by default a bigot. Having mixed feelings places one in the same box as the genuinely hateful bigots. And again pushes me towards not voting at all.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

This is pretty close to my position except I think the "lobby" is smaller and less powerful than it appears. Just very good at getting on the telly or into the pages of "The Guardian" or "New Matilda".

I try and convince myself of the same. But then you see them successfully lobby the Victorian govt for $15m as a contribution to a $38m LBGTIQ corporate centre in St.Kilda.

I think to myself. If same sex marriage (which will happen by the way) is to remove the last piece of institutionalised discrimination for LBGTIQ people, what purpose do they have with a corporate centre designed specifically for them - and by the way having the taxpayer foot the bill? Symptomatic of the absurd prominence of modern identity politics

 

[MD Jazz]

I try and convince myself of the same. But then you see them successfully lobby the Victorian govt for $15m as a contribution to a $38m LBGTIQ corporate centre in St.Kilda.

I think to myself. If same sex marriage (which will happen by the way) is to remove the last piece of institutionalised discrimination for LBGTIQ people, what purpose do they have with a corporate centre designed specifically for them - and by the way having the taxpayer foot the bill? Symptomatic of the absurd prominence of modern identity politics

You think that is it as far as acceptance and equality?

 

[Panthera Tigris]

You think that is it as far as acceptance and equality?

I suppose it depends whether your world view is of equality being essentially accepting people as they are on their individual merits, as I do. Or alternatively if you view the world through the eyes of a cultural Marxist LBGTIQ political activist, who cultivate an identity 100% tied to their sexuality status and view themselves as forever victims in a perpetual struggle and will only ever be appeased, if society is to afford them special reverence.

The sorts of initiatives I can see from these types of professional activist organisations once marriage equality is achieved will be, employment and political representative quotas for people identifying as LBGTIQ - as in, seeking exemptions from anti discrimination legislation to achieve this. Special medical status for people suffering from gender dysphoria (we are already seeing this in the ADF with the Human Rights Commission using the ADF as their private plaything for pushing social engineering experimentation).......if these sorts of things are one's view of what equality looks like, I suppose a purpose built LGBTIQ corporate centre is good use of public funds. My personal view though, is that it's overshooting the runway by a fair amount and is actually counterproductive with it's divisiveness. But to express such a view is no doubt bigoted.

I didn't really want to delve into this too much though as it's off on quite a bit of a tangent. But you asked the question.

 

[Baloo]

I didn't have a strong feeling one way or another. At the end I would have voted a Yes because when I asked "Why not?" I couldn't think of good logic reason why not. Except for gay schools and legalised beastiality of course but hey, it is the 21st century

 

[Giardiasis]

Theyre called human rights Gia, not living organism rights.

Equality in that context is only about humans.

Each of the examples I've used have involved humans.

 

[Giardiasis]

So they couldn't vote because of legally instituted racial discrimination against them. Now they can because that particular form of discrimination has been legally removed. So now, even though they can vote, because there are other forms of discrimination (true) they don't have the same right to vote as other Australians?

Bizarre line of argument even for you Gia.

Not the same rights as other Australian's, the same rights as existing Australian voters.

 

[Giardiasis]

Not to worry Ant. Gia thinks repeating assertions ("it's a false equivalence") is the same explaining your position.

Gia is a grand master of the deceptive semantic arts. Nothing really means anything unless we all agree to his particular definition (see "CO2 is not a 'pollutant'" amongst others on the Global warming thread or "Tax is theft backed by violent force" in the Politics thread). He also loves to misuse informal logical fallacies.

I've explained those positions, I haven't just repeatedly asserted them.

 

[Giardiasis]

ok. so you wont be voting at all? at least that is consistent.

Correct I'm not voting.

 

[AngryAnt]

I suppose it depends whether your world view is of equality being essentially accepting people as they are on their individual merits, as I do. Or alternatively if you view the world through the eyes of a cultural Marxist LBGTIQ political activist, who cultivate an identity 100% tied to their sexuality status and view themselves as forever victims in a perpetual struggle and will only ever be appeased, if society is to afford them special reverence.

Yes. You can imagine in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries regular everyday people like yourself saying much the same things as those campaigning for the abolition of slavery, the vote for women, the vote for aborigines, equal pay for women, civil rights, political independence for colonised states. All tedious Marxist/Leninist identity politics, where will it all end? :hihi

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Yes. You can imagine in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries regular everyday people like yourself saying much the same things as those campaigning for the abolition of slavery, the vote for women, the vote for aborigines, equal pay for women, civil rights, political independence for colonised states. All tedious Marxist/Leninist identity politics, where will it all end? :hihi

Difference is, post modernist "Marxist/Leninist identity politics" has gone way beyond striving for equality and is now more about 'getting even' and spiteful retribution for past injustice rather than striving for equality itself. Only got to observe the context invented terms such as 'cisgender' and 'heteronormative' are used, normally used with venom to divisively denigrate those sitting on the lower rungs of their self devised victim league table. This obviously doesn't go for your run of the mill LBGTIQ community, most of which want to just be accepted and get on with life (my brother for instance). But the vocal political types though who seem to hold a disproportionate amount of influence.

But again way off on a tangent.

 

[Giardiasis]

Tax payer money at work. Of course the other side don't get the same treatment. We are all equal...

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/09/15/same-sex-marriage-love-group-monitor-anti-lgbtiq-content-during-campaign

 

[AngryAnt]

Tax payer money at work. Of course the other side don't get the same treatment. We are all equal...

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017/09/15/same-sex-marriage-love-group-monitor-anti-lgbtiq-content-during-campaign

Says they are volunteers, nothing about public funding.

 

[poppa x]

It's all very sad that a simple question is being railroaded.
I'm a right wing hetero and I think the behaviour of Abbott, Abetz, and their like is a disgrace.

 

[MD Jazz]

Yes. You can imagine in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries regular everyday people like yourself saying much the same things as those campaigning for the abolition of slavery, the vote for women, the vote for aborigines, equal pay for women, civil rights, political independence for colonised states. All tedious Marxist/Leninist identity politics, where will it all end? :hihi

Agree ant.

 

[Giardiasis]

Says they are volunteers, nothing about public funding.

Read on they got $7k