Marriage Equality

[evo]

I was pretty annoyed to get an unsolicited call from the "Yes" campaign last night, asking me if I was aware of the vote? Had my voting forms arrived yet? and how was I going to vote? Having answered the first few questions cordially upon being asked how I will vote I was fairly abrupt informing them it's none of their business. It's not enough to change my mind but I find that sort of questioning at best highly inappropriate and at worst sinister.

I then got a text immediately after telling me where to post my 'YES' vote.

Gotta say that left me thinking 'pain in the arse wankers.'

Interesting. Phone lobbying is big thing in the states because they have optional voting. i didnt expect to see it Australian

Makes me think that mandatory voting for elections isn't such a bad thing after all.

As you say, I don't see why you should have to give your arguments to some stranger over the phone.

 

[Elmer]

As you say, I don't see why you should have to give your arguments to some stranger over the phone.

I can tolerate the mail and every second company crapping on about what a great corporate citizens they are by supporting the vote (whilst offshoring every job they can and upping their charges) but some random calling me to ask and influence me on how I vote (on anything) is crossing the line. I can understand why it would influence people to go the other way.

 

[skybeau]

I can tolerate the mail and every second company crapping on about what a great corporate citizens they are by supporting the vote (whilst offshoring every job they can and upping their charges) but some random calling me to ask and influence me on how I vote (on anything) is crossing the line. I can understand why it would influence people to go the other way.

I can't. You are going to vote against equalizing marriage just to spite a random on the phone? That's seriously petty.

 

[Elmer]

I can't. You are going to vote against equalizing marriage just to spite a random on the phone? That's seriously petty.

Perhaps accurately read the thread before you incorrectly infer my actions - what I said is I can understand how some people would. Getting unsolicited randoms asking you how you will vote to potentially cajole your viewpoint would be enough to push some people the other way.

 

[easy_tiger]

Genius. Must try that. What did you do? Yell 'free meat balls' then remove the Allen keys from all the flat packs?
Point out that nobody needs 35 different animal shaped candles? Make use of the display facilities?

None of those have worked for me.

Nah, me and the 3 kids got separated from mum and lost in the one-way maze, when I tried to go out the in shute, a security guard blocked my way and said I had to go back.

I said one of my kids was having an anaphylactic reaction to the swedish wild cranberries, but he just pointed in the opposite direction, and said 'you have to go that way'.

so I went round the corner, smashed a fire alarm, and bolted out the in.

of course, it was all on camera, and security nabbed us, but only when my daughter fell over.

They got me in and didnt buy my story that I had autism, clastrophobia, agrophobia and dyslexia and had become acutely overwhelmed by weird swedish names of stuff, and only smashed the fire alarm when I felt like

there was no other way out.

They told me I was an incompetant parent and that I was banned from all IKEA stores forever.

I thanked them profusely, and left.

The kids still talk about it, 15 years later.

I cant remember how this relates to gay marriage?

maybe for minority groups, life feels like one big IKEA store :don't know

 

[spook]

:hihi

 

[Tommy H]

There are some really good posts here. Differing opinions and all valuable on both sides of the debate. Great reading, keep up the good work.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Nah, me and the 3 kids got separated from mum and lost in the one-way maze, when I tried to go out the in shute, a security guard blocked my way and said I had to go back.

I said one of my kids was having an anaphylactic reaction to the swedish wild cranberries, but he just pointed in the opposite direction, and said 'you have to go that way'.

so I went round the corner, smashed a fire alarm, and bolted out the in.

of course, it was all on camera, and security nabbed us, but only when my daughter fell over.

They got me in and didnt buy my story that I had autism, clastrophobia, agrophobia and dyslexia and had become acutely overwhelmed by weird swedish names of stuff, and only smashed the fire alarm when I felt like

there was no other way out.

They told me I was an incompetant parent and that I was banned from all IKEA stores forever.

I thanked them profusely, and left.

The kids still talk about it, 15 years later.

I cant remember how this relates to gay marriage?

maybe for minority groups, life feels like one big IKEA store :don't know

Ha ha ha . I must tell Knighter junior's godfather that story. Lives in fear and loathing of those Swedish swines. Never tried to go out the in before. But I've gone in the out heaps. Screw them and their Gruen-transfer-inducing maze. You get the item location online and walk through the registers straight in to the stores area. In and out in 15mins.

 

[royce67]

This is just one such issue. It applies to all the PC left wing crusades. We had a team day at work last week where everyone had to sit there and be told by our manager (a woman) that we needed to hire more women "cos diversity" and that we had too many men in top positions. Then some other women made great suggestions such as only letting men leave and only hiring women. Everyone sat there looking at the ground, afraid to say the bleating obvious that perhaps women don't want to work there and is "diversity" really all it's cracked up to be? Perhaps we don't worry about gender and just focus on hiring the best people? Everyone was afraid of being called a bigot or hurting their chance of promotion. I wasn't there otherwise I could be out of a job.

Err sorry? You were at a team meeting at which had this so called problem but then at the end you say that you weren't there? So which is it or are you just making things up? I'm always impressed by the I heard from a FOAF, who heard from a FOAF who... ad infinitum argument.

 

[tigertim]

Err sorry? You were at a team meeting at which had this so called problem but then at the end you say that you weren't there? So which is it or are you just making things up? I'm always impressed by the I heard from a FOAF, who heard from a FOAF who... ad infinitum argument.

Yeah, I thought there were some inconsistencies with the story.

 

[Giardiasis]

Err sorry? You were at a team meeting at which had this so called problem but then at the end you say that you weren't there? So which is it or are you just making things up? I'm always impressed by the I heard from a FOAF, who heard from a FOAF who... ad infinitum argument.

We as in the team, I wasn't there. I was told this by about half a dozen people that were there, and it's not something that's come out of the blue for this manager or the organisation.

"So called problem"? I'm certain many others here would have experienced affirmative action in the workplace that seeks to employ people based on their gender and not their ability.

 

[MD Jazz]

The issue itself shouldn't be discussed at schools especially primary.

Wow.

 

[Giardiasis]

Wow.

And here we have another one size fits all approach thanks to government control of schools. If Harry doesn't want the topic discussed at schools he sends his kids then that's fine, just like it's fine for you to want it to be discussed. Alas we don't have these options.

 

[MD Jazz]

And here we have another one size fits all approach thanks to government control of schools. If Harry doesn't want the topic discussed at schools he sends his kids then that's fine, just like it's fine for you to want it to be discussed. Alas we don't have these options.

Communication, discussion is surely the best way to overcome ignorance and fear?

I don't like stuff shoved down my throat and agree with posters about the annoyance of some tactics used in trying to influence people but I also think conversations about difficult topics that affect us all need to be had. We need to create environments where people are comfortable to express themselves without fear.

I suppose the question is are schools and teachers equipped to host the conversation. Given some of the teachers I know maybe Harry is right!

 

[Giardiasis]

Communication, discussion is surely the best way to overcome ignorance and fear?

I don't like stuff shoved down my throat and agree with posters about the annoyance of some tactics used in trying to influence people but I also think conversations about difficult topics that affect us all need to be had. We need to create environments where people are comfortable to express themselves without fear.

I suppose the question is are schools and teachers equipped to host the conversation. Given some of the teachers I know maybe Harry is right!

Exactly. Your reasoning is sound, but I think it should be up to parents to decide these questions. There aren't right or wrong answers but preferences. Preferences denied by a centralised approach, the same as it is for marriage.

 

[The_General]

Communication, discussion is surely the best way to overcome ignorance and fear?

I don't like stuff shoved down my throat and agree with posters about the annoyance of some tactics used in trying to influence people but I also think conversations about difficult topics that affect us all need to be had. We need to create environments where people are comfortable to express themselves without fear.

I suppose the question is are schools and teachers equipped to host the conversation. Given some of the teachers I know maybe Harry is right!

I agree. I'm a little concerned about when and how they do the communication as you suggest, but it's a part of life and children need to understand it's normal. If they don't, they're going to have a point in their lives where everything jolts unexpectedly.......

I used to work in call centres many years ago when I finished Uni, and one of the women from another culture was offended by gays and lesbians to put it politely. She spewed a bunch of ignorant stuff about one of the guys in our induction training and was probably lucky to have kept her job. I wasn't the first to tell her, that if she was so offended, she might have made a better career choice (there was a large portion of call centre workforces who were LGBTIQ at the time).

Doubt that would have happened if there'd been some education in her life before she joined the work force.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Communication, discussion is surely the best way to overcome ignorance and fear?

I don't like stuff shoved down my throat and agree with posters about the annoyance of some tactics used in trying to influence people but I also think conversations about difficult topics that affect us all need to be had. We need to create environments where people are comfortable to express themselves without fear.

I suppose the question is are schools and teachers equipped to host the conversation. Given some of the teachers I know maybe Harry is right!

Rather unfortunately there is I think a problem with how teachers are taught. Especially Primary. I myself was almost a teacher. I was accepted into Secondary Teaching at Melbourne Uni. I dropped out after 6 months but the reason I was accepted was because the bar for entry was set so low. I wasn't a great student. We don't think of teaching as being as difficult as engineering. As a result we don't necessarily get the 'best' people with best skills, especially critical thinking skills, becoming teachers and we don't pay them all that well. All of that leads me to the point that we rely on teachers to educate our kids on complex topics and to be able to navigate moral and social minefields but we never question how they got to be qualified to actually do this. In many cases I just don't think they are.

I worry that it is a lot of vegan, naturopath, yoga types who end up at teacher's college.

 

[Brodders17]

The issue itself shouldn't be discussed at schools especially primary.

why not?

 

[Coburgtiger]

Rather unfortunately there is I think a problem with how teachers are taught. Especially Primary. I myself was almost a teacher. I was accepted into Secondary Teaching at Melbourne Uni. I dropped out after 6 months but the reason I was accepted was because the bar for entry was set so low. I wasn't a great student. We don't think of teaching as being as difficult as engineering. As a result we don't necessarily get the 'best' people with best skills, especially critical thinking skills, becoming teachers and we don't pay them all that well. All of that leads me to the point that we rely on teachers to educate our kids on complex topics and to be able to navigate moral and social minefields but we never question how they got to be qualified to actually do this. In many cases I just don't think they are.

I worry that it is a lot of vegan, naturopath, yoga types who end up at teacher's college.

I'm not sure you need to worry about vegans teaching ethics. At least you know they've thought about it.

I've taught all high school year levels this year, and the focus of the new scientific curriculum 7-10, as well as the new study designs in VCE science, is now on experimental design, the scientific method, and ethics.

Pure content teaching has really taken a back seat to the conducting of actual science. It's hard, but it's fantastic.

I've moderated several debates in my VCE classes about things like Stem cells, cloning, vaccination programs, Genetically Modified Organisms etc. We have, at times, had to discuss issues of Gender vs Biological sex in genetics, and sexual selection in evolution.

I can tell you, that an environment in which teenagers are still sorting a lot of this stuff out in their heads, can be very delicate and requires a very respectful, open and understanding classroom.

What I always tell the students is that, in these issues, I don't have the answers. In fact, anyone who says they do is probably a politician or a youtube commenter. I have my opinions (which I don't share), and I just want you to formulate your own. But the key is, whatever you do decide, make sure it's evidence based, you understand the underlying logic, and you constantly, constantly question and refine it. Like any scientist, be prepared to throw your model out the window in the face of new evidence.

The aim of the ethical debate is always to find the solution which causes the least amount of pain/hurt/sadness/discomfort which can be very subjective, but the discussion is always about what is evidence based.

We have not had a debate on marriage equality, but I hope they can carry those underlying principles through.

 

[Coburgtiger]

Rather unfortunately there is I think a problem with how teachers are taught. Especially Primary. I myself was almost a teacher. I was accepted into Secondary Teaching at Melbourne Uni. I dropped out after 6 months but the reason I was accepted was because the bar for entry was set so low. I wasn't a great student. We don't think of teaching as being as difficult as engineering. As a result we don't necessarily get the 'best' people with best skills, especially critical thinking skills, becoming teachers and we don't pay them all that well. All of that leads me to the point that we rely on teachers to educate our kids on complex topics and to be able to navigate moral and social minefields but we never question how they got to be qualified to actually do this. In many cases I just don't think they are.

I worry that it is a lot of vegan, naturopath, yoga types who end up at teacher's college.

Also, the bar for entry to a teaching course might be low, but the ability to survive it and the first few years teaching tends to weed out those who thought they'd try it for the holidays.