Indigenous History Debate

[DavidSSS]

Guilt is a term used by the right to deflect from the fact that we won't take responsibility for the benefits we gain from aboriginal dispossession.

I don't hear Aboriginal Australians talking about guilt, I hear them talk about wanting to be included in this country and not being treated as second class citizens (since 1967, before then part of the wildlife apparently).

We all benefit we should all be trying to right the wrongs we benefit from.

DS

 

[AngryAnt]

Exactly. It's not about guilt, it's about recognising what happened in the past and working together for a better future.

 

[glantone]

Guilt is a term used by the right to deflect from the fact that we won't take responsibility for the benefits we gain from aboriginal dispossession.

I don't hear Aboriginal Australians talking about guilt, I hear them talk about wanting to be included in this country and not being treated as second class citizens (since 1967, before then part of the wildlife apparently).

We all benefit we should all be trying to right the wrongs we benefit from.

DS

I don't think politics is so binary. ‘The right’ whoever they are these days don’t have a monopoly on ignoring history and wanting to move on just as ‘the left’ whoever they are don’t own copyrights to the moral high ground. Surely there are hoards of ALP voters who just want to move on in regards to the indigenous issue. Or maybe you're referring to the gov when you use these terms.

You probably wont here the indigenous talking about 'guilt' unless they're psychoanalysing the non indigenous population as I'm silly enough to try and do....hahaha

 

[glantone]

I don’t know. I kind of posted about a guilt matrix as a bit of fun but on reflection guilt must be in play here.

As a nation our original sin is how we treated the indigenous peoples. Nearly 2 centuries of shameful practices. And just 50 odd years of enlightenment which has come along as painfully as wisdom teeth. The math points to a reservoir of national shame and with 2 centuries of shame how can guilt not be part of the equation? Where did the guilt go?
If national guilt is not in play then what drives resistance to truly acknowledging and teaching how ugly our history is? Is it indifference, straight out racism or maybe it’s a combo with a side of guilt. I certainly don't know, just exploring here...

 

[tigerman]

The Royal family and the British Government were active in the slave trade and slavery when the free settlers and convicts landed/invaded Australia.
Our indigenous brothers and sisters were on a hiding to nothing. The Aboriginals were either going to be massacred or used as slaves, which is what happened.
Has the British Government ever apologised for the disgraceful treatment meted out to the poor souls, I bet they they haven't?

 

[DavidSSS]

I don’t know. I kind of posted about a guilt matrix as a bit of fun but on reflection guilt must be in play here.

As a nation our original sin is how we treated the indigenous peoples. Nearly 2 centuries of shameful practices. And just 50 odd years of enlightenment which has come along as painfully as wisdom teeth. The math points to a reservoir of national shame and with 2 centuries of shame how can guilt not be part of the equation? Where did the guilt go?
If national guilt is not in play then what drives resistance to truly acknowledging and teaching how ugly our history is? Is it indifference, straight out racism or maybe it’s a combo with a side of guilt. I certainly don't know, just exploring here...

The thing about "guilt" as a concept is that it can be (and is) used in such a way as to avoid responsibility. You see, guilt has that very valuable trait of having plausible deniability. The strategy is to set up a straw man by stating "I don't feel guilt - it wasn't me/my forebears who invaded Australia, I wasn't alive at the time etc". Hence, by framing the debate as one about guilt one can avoid taking responsibility by denying guilt. It isn't a bad strategy and has worked to some extent.

DS

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

The thing about "guilt" as a concept is that it can be (and is) used in such a way as to avoid responsibility. You see, guilt has that very valuable trait of having plausible deniability. The strategy is to set up a straw man by stating "I don't feel guilt - it wasn't me/my forebears who invaded Australia, I wasn't alive at the time etc". Hence, by framing the debate as one about guilt one can avoid taking responsibility by denying guilt. It isn't a bad strategy and has worked to some extent.

Do you feel guilt? Is your attitude towards Aboriginals different because of it?

 

[glantone]

The thing about "guilt" as a concept is that it can be (and is) used in such a way as to avoid responsibility. You see, guilt has that very valuable trait of having plausible deniability. The strategy is to set up a straw man by stating "I don't feel guilt - it wasn't me/my forebears who invaded Australia, I wasn't alive at the time etc". Hence, by framing the debate as one about guilt one can avoid taking responsibility by denying guilt. It isn't a bad strategy and has worked to some extent.

DS

Yeah you’re right. I never thought of denial as a deliberate strategy like that. Geez, that’s pretty cynical. Though I’d hazard a guess that most people who consider themselves as decent who use denial (perhaps subconsciously) would do so as a defence mechanism rather than a deliberate strategy to cloak racism. I mean some pretty smart and compassionate and committed individuals and organisations have done their best through the years and failed so how helpless are we the average unassuming person on the street to impact the situation.

I don’t feel any shame or guilt if talking about the holocaust - not a shred - but when talking about the plight of the indigenous Australians it’s always there. And this underpinning of shame and guilt goes through the roof if the topic comes up with an inquisitive visitor from abroad who's seen docos or read stuff on the net so I guess there must be some sense of national shame in me at play. Maybe it depends on how you're wired.

Has anyone got the skinny on home ownership on indigenous titled land? Can indigenous Australian buy, renovate and sell houses on titled land or is it all government rental? And can indigenous open, buy, sell businesses on titled land? Guess what I'm asking is are they free to conduct themselves and live their life on titled land as non indigenous australians are all over the rest of australia?

 

[Althom]

Do you feel guilt? Is your attitude towards Aboriginals different because of it?

The pointy heads apparently don't feel guilt because they "acknowledge" their advantage.
However they don't do anything about it apart from point at others and shout racist.

 

[Althom]

Yeah you’re right. I never thought of denial as a deliberate strategy like that. Geez, that’s pretty cynical. Though I’d hazard a guess that most people who consider themselves as decent who use denial (perhaps subconsciously) would do so as a defence mechanism rather than a deliberate strategy to cloak racism. I mean some pretty smart and compassionate and committed individuals and organisations have done their best through the years and failed so how helpless are we the average unassuming person on the street to impact the situation.

I don’t feel any shame or guilt if talking about the holocaust - not a shred - but when talking about the plight of the indigenous Australians it’s always there. And this underpinning of shame and guilt goes through the roof if the topic comes up with an inquisitive visitor from abroad who's seen docos or read stuff on the net so I guess there must be some sense of national shame in me at play. Maybe it depends on how you're wired.

Has anyone got the skinny on home ownership on indigenous titled land? Can indigenous Australian buy, renovate and sell houses on titled land or is it all government rental? And can indigenous open, buy, sell businesses on titled land? Guess what I'm asking is are they free to conduct themselves and live their life on titled land as non indigenous australians are all over the rest of australia?

Aboriginal Australians have exactly the same rights as all Australians in regards property purchases and starting a business.

 

[Djevv]

The Royal family and the British Government were active in the slave trade and slavery when the free settlers and convicts landed/invaded Australia.
Our indigenous brothers and sisters were on a hiding to nothing. The Aboriginals were either going to be massacred or used as slaves, which is what happened.
Has the British Government ever apologised for the disgraceful treatment meted out to the poor souls, I bet they they haven't?

The slave trade was outlawed in all British colonies in 1807. That’s early on in the history of Australia.

 

[AngryAnt]

The slave trade was outlawed in all British colonies in 1807. That’s early on in the history of Australia.

Slavery and forms of indentured labour persisted in Australia well into the 20th century. Don't assume that because a practice was outlawed by the Crown that it didn't persist long afterwards in various places. There was also "blackbirding", essentially press-ganging polynesians, bringing them to Australia to work in the canefields as indentured labour into the 20th century as well.

Was there slavery in Australia? Yes. It shouldn’t even be up for debate

Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s statement that ‘there was no slavery in Australia’ is at odds with the historical record.

theconversation.com

This is why we need better indigenous history - otherwise myths like "there was no slavery in Australia" will persist.

This image of aborigines enslaved for pearl diving purposes is from 1910.

The dark history of slavery in Australian pearling

Descended from a murderous slaver as well as those he enslaved, Terry Hunter's efforts to reconcile his family history confront the dark past of Australia's pearling industry.

www.abc.net.au

 

[tigerman]

The slave trade was outlawed in all British colonies in 1807. That’s early on in the history of Australia.

Yes, but "slavery" was not abolished for another 30 years..................supposedly.

When the slave trade was abolished, the slave traders got compensated, not the the slaves

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

The dark history of slavery in Australian pearling

Descended from a murderous slaver as well as those he enslaved, Terry Hunter's efforts to reconcile his family history confront the dark past of Australia's pearling industry.

www.abc.net.au

Terry Hunter has a highly commendable attitude.

 

[AngryAnt]

Yes, it's about reconciliation - recognising the truth of the past and working together to create a better future. It's not about "guilt".

 

[glantone]

The pointy heads apparently don't feel guilt because they "acknowledge" their advantage.
However they don't do anything about it apart from point at others and shout racist.

Thanks for the heads up on home/business ownership. I wonder when that came about.

What’s a pointy head?

Interesting if you think you can work off guilt or shame like you can a hangover.

 

[glantone]

Speaking of the lol days I recently read somewhere that in the states imprisoning or in the case of serious crime hanging a slave was seen to a large extent as punishing the slave owner (more than the slave) who would be 1 slave down and so out of pocket. Trying to run a business based on slavery is not all its cracked up to be.

 

[Djevv]

Slavery and forms of indentured labour persisted in Australia well into the 20th century. Don't assume that because a practice was outlawed by the Crown that it didn't persist long afterwards in various places. There was also "blackbirding", essentially press-ganging polynesians, bringing them to Australia to work in the canefields as indentured labour into the 20th century as well.

Was there slavery in Australia? Yes. It shouldn’t even be up for debate

Prime Minister Scott Morrison’s statement that ‘there was no slavery in Australia’ is at odds with the historical record.

theconversation.com

This is why we need better indigenous history - otherwise myths like "there was no slavery in Australia" will persist.

This image of aborigines enslaved for pearl diving purposes is from 1910.

The dark history of slavery in Australian pearling

Descended from a murderous slaver as well as those he enslaved, Terry Hunter's efforts to reconcile his family history confront the dark past of Australia's pearling industry.

www.abc.net.au

Yes there was corruption, racism and abuse occurred no doubt. There is a massive difference between this and full state sanctioned chattel slavery. It’s interesting to note that abolishing the slave trade was a work in progress to took time to work its way through the British Empire.

On the other hand this was the first time in history that the slave trade was abolished. That alone should show what a powerful civilising influence the British Empire was on balance.

 

[AngryAnt]

SYes there was corruption, racism and abuse occurred no doubt. There is a massive difference between this and full state sanctioned chattel slavery. It’s interesting to note that abolishing the slave trade was a work in progress to took time to work its way through the British Empire.

On the other hand this was the first time in history that the slave trade was abolished. That alone should show what a powerful civilising influence the British Empire was on balance.

Yes, these guys must have been so grateful to know that they weren't actually slaves as the practice had been outlawed in Empire 103 years before.

1882 - these aborigines sold to PT Barnum for display in his US circuses also must have been relieved they weren't actually slaves.

photo from between 1898-1906 - these blokes don't look like slaves at all.

"Slavery has been illegal in the (former) British Empire since the Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade of 1807, and certainly since 1833.

Slavery practices emerged in Australia in the 19th century and in some places endured until the 1950s.

Early coverage of slavery in Australia​

As early as the 1860s, anti-slavery campaigners began to invoke “charges of chattel bondage and slavery” to describe north Australian conditions for Aboriginal labour."

Was there slavery in Australia? Yes. It shouldn't even be up for debate

Prime Minister Scott Morrison has claimed Australia's past is free from slavery, but there is plenty of evidence stating that isn't the case.

www.sbs.com.au

Sadly, denialism on the part of white australia about this part of our history continues to this day. Until you can face the past and admit the what happened, you cannot pretend to be someone concerned with the truth.

 

[Djevv]

Yes, these guys must have been so grateful to know that they weren't actually slaves as the practice had been outlawed in Empire 103 years before.

1882 - these aborigines sold to PT Barnum for display in his US circuses also must have been relieved they weren't actually slaves.

photo from between 1898-1906 - these blokes don't look like slaves at all.

"Slavery has been illegal in the (former) British Empire since the Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade of 1807, and certainly since 1833.

Slavery practices emerged in Australia in the 19th century and in some places endured until the 1950s.

Early coverage of slavery in Australia​

As early as the 1860s, anti-slavery campaigners began to invoke “charges of chattel bondage and slavery” to describe north Australian conditions for Aboriginal labour."

Sadly, denialism on the part of white australia about this part of our history continues to this day. Until you can face the past and admit the what happened, you cannot pretend to be someone concerned with the truth.

I agree these people were experiencing a form of slavery. These pictures demonstrate the fact. But in relatively far flung and lawless parts of Australia and I feel political corruption was involved as well as illegal practices by individuals. This is not wholesale and unrestrained chattel slavery as practiced in earlier times in the British Empire or the US.

Part of the reason we are aware of it is that there were abolitionist organisations and unions that stood up to it and called it out for what it was: illegal and inhuman.

Antman we still have slavery in various forms operating all over the world. It’s not legal, but it happens. What we are seeing above is similar.