Global Warming | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Global Warming

Interesting article in 'The Age' :eek::


Hold the front page on who's causing climate change
http://business.theage.com.au/business/hold-the-front-page-on-whos-causing-climate-change-20081003-4tjp.html?page=1


Some excellent points here that maybe some posters could take note of before sprouting their 'pure logic'. ;)
 
He's quite right of course that science should hear all views and evidence openly. He's also being quite misleading by saying that all advocates of man-made climate change are arguing on the basis of number of converts and derision. While some scientists have certainly raised interesting points on the lack of influence mankind may be having on the climate, there does still exist substantial data that seemingly illustrates a strong correlation between carbon emmisions and rising temperatures, so his position is indeed somewhat contradictory.

It's also not unthinkable that David Purchase (who) is executive director of the Victorian Automobile Chamber of Commerce might have his own agenda in taking this swipe at those who hold opinion different to himself, expert or not.
 
First, the 'there is no debate' line is *smile*. A furphey spouted by people who don't want to face facts. This whiole 'thought police' crap is a straw man. Scientist and environmentalists have known about global warming for 40 years, and its been well known for 25. The fact the the debate has only gone mainstraem in the last 5 or so years, some would say 3, is because scientific evidence is now so compelling that deniers, who have powerful interests behind them, are increasingly clutching at straws. The other side of the debate isn't being silenced, its got nothing, its an uneven debate. There are not 2 even sides to this debate. Its like somebody saying 'why is nobody saying Lance Franklin is a dud? Why are they being silenced?' They aren't being silenced, they just can't effectively argue their case, because its wrong. Which brings me to,

Second, who the hell is Purchase? The head of the Auto chamber of Commerce? That respected intitute of Climate research? Say no more. Its irrelevant what David Purchase says. He can express his view at a barbeque, fine.

The whole 'why is the other side of the debate silenced'? question is very easy to answer, They have lost and have no evidence. No peer reviewed articles, which is all that matters, denying climate change. Plenty of columnists, bloggers, blokes on soap boxes, blokes crapping on in pubs, internet forums, heads of unrelated organisations like the auto chamber of commerce, who cares? Its peer reviewed article that count in debates on the big questions that matter.

As i thought, the notion of logic sailed over your head as usual Liverpool.
 
tigersnake said:
First, the 'there is no debate' line is *smile*. A furphey spouted by people who don't want to face facts. This whiole 'thought police' crap is a straw man. Scientist and environmentalists have known about global warming for 40 years, and its been well known for 25. The fact the the debate has only gone mainstraem in the last 5 or so years, some would say 3, is because scientific evidence is now so compelling that deniers, who have powerful interests behind them, are increasingly clutching at straws. The other side of the debate isn't being silenced, its got nothing, its an uneven debate. There are not 2 even sides to this debate. Its like somebody saying 'why is nobody saying Lance Franklin is a dud? Why are they being silenced?' They aren't being silenced, they just can't effectively argue their case, because its wrong. Which brings me to,

Second, who the hell is Purchase? The head of the Auto chamber of Commerce? That respected intitute of Climate research? Say no more. Its irrelevant what David Purchase says. He can express his view at a barbeque, fine.

The whole 'why is the other side of the debate silenced'? question is very easy to answer, They have lost and have no evidence. No peer reviewed articles, which is all that matters, denying climate change. Plenty of columnists, bloggers, blokes on soap boxes, blokes crapping on in pubs, internet forums, heads of unrelated organisations like the auto chamber of commerce, who cares? Its peer reviewed article that count in debates on the big questions that matter.

As i thought, the notion of logic sailed over your head as usual Liverpool.


Tigersnake,
Who the *smile* is denying climate change????

What the 'other side' are questioning is the rampant notion that the doomsdayers such as yourself keep going on about that the whole world is changing because of mankind, when there is a lot of scientific evidence (whether you like it or not) saying otherwise.

And finally....why don't you answer my previous post instead of dodging and sidetracking it with a rambling mess about how irrelevant everyone is unless they agree with you and your 'end of world ideology'.

If Australia is responsible for a measly 1.5% of the global emissions....why should this country and it's citizens be subject to stringent controls and measures that will turn the economy of this country upside down........when we have the largest polluters such as India, China, Brazil, and the USA with no numerical targets whatsoever under the Kyoto Protocol?
We could live in a tent for a year and not stoke up one bloody coal mine and it would not make one iota of difference to climate change whatsoever.
And you claim logic is sailing over my head...... :spin
 
Can anyone point me in the direction of, or print links to, the peer reviewed papers that unequivocally prove mankind is responsible for global warming?
 
No probs Freezer. I wouldn't say it proves anything, but it certainly is peer reviewed and as far as I can tell is a good place to start when trying to find evidence without propaganda.

Liverpool, you might try reading it too. As you say, there is some scientific research which may indicate that carbon emissions have nothing to do with GW, but there is also plenty that suggests it is quite likely that they do.
 
Disco08 said:
Liverpool, you might try reading it too. As you say, there is some scientific research which may indicate that carbon emissions have nothing to do with GW, but there is also plenty that suggests it is quite likely that they do.

I agree Disco...there is data from both sides so I respond to this by going back to one of my earlier posts:

Liverpool said:
* I've agreed with you lot that the earth is warming.
* I've agreed that it is good if people get something out of recycling, saving water, planting trees...even if it just makes people feel better inside themselves.
* I've agreed even that man has had a (very) small role in the earth heating up.
* I've even said that people on BOTH sides have vested interests....that people from your side go on about we'll be living underwater in 30 years, etc....and people on the other side who completely dismiss that the cimate is changing at all. BOTH sides have vested interests, mostly due to money and financial backing from various groups.

But I will not agree that it has been the main culprit in the planet's climate changing....and I won't agree that if we stopped doing everything we do now, and revert back to the stone-age, that all will 'return to normal'.


Disco08 said:
I wouldn't say it proves anything, but it certainly is peer reviewed and as far as I can tell is a good place to start when trying to find evidence without propaganda.

As for the 'peer reviewed' stuff....we have been down that track before earlier in this thread as well:

Disco08 said:
You understand that the IPCC's findings are all subject to peer review and that still the vast majority of scientific institutions agree with their position?
You can't think the vast majority of the world's scientists are all conspiring to lie to the world about climate change can you?


Back then Disco, as you can see...you were a big fan of the IPCC as being 'the' main expert group in this field because they were "peer reviewed" and what happened was that out of 62 scientists who contributed to this important IPCC report on greenhouse gases being the main culprit in climate change, over half of them had their work edited which resulted in an open letter from 100 scientists to the United Nations..here is a snippet:


Leading scientists, including some senior IPCC representatives, acknowledge that today's computer models cannot predict climate. Consistent with this, and despite computer projections of temperature rises, there has been no net global warming since 1998. That the current temperature plateau follows a late 20th century period of warming is consistent with the continuation today of natural multi-decadal or millennial climate cycling.
In stark contrast to the often repeated assertion that the science of climate change is "settled," significant new peer-reviewed research has cast even more doubt on the hypothesis of dangerous human-caused global warming. But because IPCC working groups were generally instructed (see this PDF) to consider work published only through May, 2005, these important findings are not included in their reports; i.e., the IPCC assessment reports are already materially outdated.


http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/UN_open_letter.pdf


So I have no problem reading your latest 'peer reviewed' link that you have posted from the Royal Society and making up my own mind but as we have seen with the IPCC, you can't put all your faith in these so-called 'peer reviewed' papers.
 
tigersnake said:
The whole 'why is the other side of the debate silenced'? question is very easy to answer, They have lost and have no evidence. No peer reviewed articles, which is all that matters, denying climate change.

As I said to Disco....the IPCC released a 'peer reviewed' report in which over half of the 62 scientists that contributed to the report had their work edited.
This lead to an open letter from 100 scientists (including ones who contributed to the IPCC report) to the UN:

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/reprint/UN_open_letter.pdf

So much for the IPCC peer reviewed reports, eh?

P.S: Again...nobody is denying climate change but we are questioning the OVERstating of man being the main reason behind it and the UNDERstating of natural phenonema....which is what the letter to the UN was all about.
Why punish people with higher taxes and ridiculous carbon emission programs...especially when Australia only gives off 1.5% of the emissions anyway?
 
500,000 years ago we were in an ice age.
then the world warmed.



those men and women in their dirty coal fired caves have a lot to answer for. :)
 
poppa x said:
500,000 years ago we were in an ice age.
then the world warmed.
those men and women in their dirty coal fired caves have a lot to answer for. :)

Exactly Poppa.

In fact, earlier in this thread I posted an article stating that NASA scientists have shown that Mars is going through a similar cycle to us at the moment,
So it seems those little green men have something to answer for on Mars as well ;)
 
That's a very basic argument that has nothing at all to do with the current situation. Scientists have long known that the earth's climate varies dramatically over large time frames. It's the fact that right know the earth is supposed to be gradually cooling to another ice age that has people concerned about the current warming of the climate.

Livers, I agree with you about the IPCC. To the layman their original findings were very convincing. However thanks to the fact that their work was subject to peer review experts have been able to raise their concerns about their findings. This is the way it's supposed to work and I admit to taking their conclusions as genuine to readily. I should have known that where politics intersects with science the truth was liable to be distorted to suit an agenda. This still doesn't mean that suddenly all their data is incorrect, it just means (IMO) that there is still a lot of work to do to come up with a definitive answer.

The Royal Soceity however has a history of striving only for knowledge and their work on this matter isn't sanctioned by either side so you could hope that their contributions are far less susceptible to interference.
 
poppa x said:
500,000 years ago we were in an ice age.
then the world warmed.



those men and women in their dirty coal fired caves have a lot to answer for. :)

And how long did it take for the world to heat up again after that ice age?

It's the rate of global warming that is the issue for me.

I suppose some will have you believe that global warming this time around is completely natural and the fact that it has occured at the same time as the industrial revolution and the exponential growth of the human population along with the associated polution increase is just coincendence! :phew

The way I see it, climate change and global warming are two seperate issues.

Just for arguments sake, let's assume there are two places on opposite sides of the planet being monitored temperature wise. At the start, both have an average annual teperature of 25 degrees. Pretty comfortable. After 100 years, one place has an average annual temperature of 0 degrees and the other has an average annual temperature of 50 degrees. The annual average temperature for both places is still 25 degrees. No increase at all. But neither place is fit for habitation. Extreme example just to prove a point, but this is what I see is happening to the planet to a lesser extent although how far it goes is up for debate.


But I will not agree that it has been the main culprit in the planet's climate changing....and I won't agree that if we stopped doing everything we do now, and revert back to the stone-age, that all will 'return to normal'.

Agree with you here but only because the damage has already been done. To return to normal, you have to take action to reverse to damage. Consider the anaolgy of a truck sitting at the top of a hill completely balanced. Give it a small shove forwards and let it roll down the hill. Once it begins moving, it's momentum makes it very difficult to stop.
 
Some more information for the people out there who think it is all man's fault:


Climate change science isn't settled

MANY people think the science of climate change is settled. It isn't. And the issue is not whether there has been an overall warming during the past century. There has, although it was not uniform and none was observed during the past decade. The geologic record provides us with abundant evidence for such perpetual natural climate variability, from icecaps reaching almost to the equator to none at all, even at the poles.

The climate debate is, in reality, about a 1.6 watts per square metre or 0.5 per cent discrepancy in the poorly known planetary energy balance.

Let me explain.

Without our atmosphere, the Earth would be a frozen ice ball. Natural greenhouse warming, due to atmospheric blanket, raises the temperature by about 33C. At least two-thirds of this warming is attributed to the greenhouse effect of water vapour.

Water vapour, not carbon dioxide, is by far the most important greenhouse gas. Yet the models treat the global water cycle as just being there, relegating it to a passive agent in the climate system. Energy that is required to drive the water cycle and generate more water vapour must therefore come from somewhere else: the sun, man-made greenhouse gases, other factors or any combination of the above.

Note, however, that because of the overwhelming importance of water vapour for the greenhouse effect, existing climate models are unlikely to yield a definitive answer about the role of carbon dioxide v the sun, for example, and the answer must be sought in past records.

The past climate record does indeed resemble the trend in solar output. However, because three decades of satellite data show only limited variability, the solar output would have to be somehow amplified to explain the entire magnitude of the centennial warming. The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change argues that because no amplifier is known, and because the atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide did increase from 280 parts per million to 370ppm, man-made greenhouse gases must be responsible for most of the energy imbalance.

But this is an assumption, an attribution by default, not an actual empirical or experimental proof that carbon dioxide is the driver. Yet such attribution is then taken as a fact in the subsequent complex model calibrations of climate sensitivity to CO2.

If, however, an amplifier to solar output does exist, and empirical observations detailed below argue for its existence, the need to attribute the energy input to man-made greenhouse gases would diminish accordingly. So how realistic is the basic model assumption that the tiny - biologically controlled - carbon cycle drives the climate via the passively responding huge water cycle?

Nature tells us that it is the other way around. Surely, the blossoming of plants in the spring is the outcome, not the cause, of the warming sun and abundant rain.

Our atmosphere contains 730 billion tons of carbon as CO2. Each year about 120billion tonnes of carbon are cycled via plants on land and 90billion tonnes via oceans. Human emissions account for about seven billion to 10billion tonnes, or less than 5 per cent, of the annual CO2 flux.

From the point of view of interaction of the water and carbon cycles it is important to realise that for every unit of CO2 sequestered by a plant from the atmosphere almost 1000 units of water must be lifted from the roots to the leaf canopy and eventually evaporated back into the air.

The required huge energy source is the sun. Solar energy drives the water cycle, generating a warmer and wetter climate while invigorating the biological carbon cycle. The sun also warms the oceans that emit their CO2.

Atmospheric CO2 is thus the product and not the cause of the climate, as demonstrated by past records where temperature changes precede changes in atmospheric CO2 concentrations and fluxes: ice cores, the 1991 Mt Pinatubo volcanic eruption in the Philippines or seasonal oscillations are instructive examples.

But what might be the complementary source of energy that could account for the disputed 1.6W/m2?

Clouds are a mirror that reflects solar radiation back into space. The amount of solar energy reflected by the Earth is about 77W/m2 and the difference between cloudless and cloudy skies is about 28W/m2. Therefore a change of just a few per cent in cloudiness easily can account for the disputed energy discrepancy.

Clouds are an integral part of the sun-driven water cycle; however, formation of water droplets requires seeding and this is where solar amplification likely comes into play. Empirical and experimental results suggest that cosmic rays hitting the atmosphere may generate such initial seeds, particularly over the oceans. While the actual mechanisms are still debated, the correlations between cloudiness and cosmic ray flux already have been published.

The amplifying connection to the sun comes via its electromagnetic envelope, called the heliosphere, and a similar envelope around the Earth, the magnetosphere. These act as shields that screen the lethal cosmic rays from reaching our planet. A less active sun is not only colder but its heliospheric envelope shrinks, allowing more cosmic rays to reach our atmosphere and seed more clouds, and vice versa. Indeed, satellite data for the past decade shows a 25per cent shrinking of the heliosphere that is coincident with the halt, or even decline, in planetary temperature since 1998: a trend at odds with the ever rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide.

We also have direct evidence for the above scenario. Cosmic rays, when hitting the atmosphere, generate a cascade of cosmogenic nuclides that then rain down to the Earth's surface and can be measured in ice, trees, rocks and minerals. Such records over the past 10,000 years correlate well with the highly variable climate, while the contemporary concentrations of CO2, measured in ice cores, are flat around the low pre-industrial levels of 280ppm with no resemblance to climate trends.

These centennial to millennial correlations, coupled with direct observations of coincidence of cloudiness with cosmic rays and temperature in central Europe since 1978, argue that the sun and its amplifying mechanism must play a leading role in climate control even if the cosmic ray signal proves no more than an indirect measure of solar variability.

The science of climate change continues to evolve and regardless of the outcome of the climate debate, observational data suggests that we may be served well by basing our climate agenda, scientifically and economically, on a broader perspective than that in the IPCC outlined scenarios. Our pollution abatement and energy diversification goals could then be formulated, and likely implemented, with less pain.


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25376454-7583,00.html
 
As stated in the comments on that article:

Naz of Perth 12:10pm today

I not sure why a distinguished university professor of geology (emeritus) needs to argue his case in the Australian rather than in a peer reviewed journal.

Indeed.
 
No-one doubts that scientists are intelligent people.
What I want to know is why scientists on both sides of the climate change argument refuse to put aside their prejudices and argue their case on a scientific level.
Surely, once the facts become known, then every intelligent scientist will support the scientifically proven data.
Failure to do so means they are putting politics and prejudice before the facts.
At present, the facts are being presented in a biased manner by both sides.
Where are Newton and Einstein when we need them.
 
poppa x said:
No-one doubts that scientists are intelligent people.
What I want to know is why scientists on both sides of the climate change argument refuse to put aside their prejudices and argue their case on a scientific level.
Surely, once the facts become known, then every intelligent scientist will support the scientifically proven data.
Failure to do so means they are putting politics and prejudice before the facts.
At present, the facts are being presented in a biased manner by both sides.
Where are Newton and Einstein when we need them.

Because all the data is subject to interpretation in what is an extremely complex area. Once someone interprets in one or other direction they tend to become married to their view to avoid seeing their reputation suffer accusations of having reached a wrong conclusion initially or worse, not being able to reach a conclusion they're prepared to stick with.

The human condition unfortunately.
 
just heard some great pearls of wisdom from Visy's "Environmental Ambassador" on AW

apparently other than recycling and a few small things, Judd hasn't changed his life at all to be more environmentally friendly. reason being while China and India do their thing there is no benefit gained.

Great message for an environmental ambassador to send, unless of course his job is more promoting recycling (which earns his bosses money) as opposed to doing anything worthwhile for the environment.
 
Tiger74 said:
apparently other than recycling and a few small things, Judd hasn't changed his life at all to be more environmentally friendly. reason being while China and India do their thing there is no benefit gained.

:hihi :hihi You sure he isn't the Andrew Bolt ambassador?