Coronavirus | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

Coronavirus

FWIW a the rule of thumb being used is 2 cycles ie 28 days of zero community transmission. Not saying it’s right or wrong btw.
We should expect relaxing of masks outside especially by the end of November on that basis ..all being well of course
Yes that's my understanding. The thing that amazes me is that every photo you seem to see in the press (both hard copy and digital) that shows people gathering outside; hardly any of them are wearing masks!! At the beach (not swimming, just standing around or sitting on towels), in a bar or pub, walking down a busy shopping street. Very few masks. It appears a lot of people have already made the decision for themselves.

You have to wear a mask outside surrounded by no one but you can go to a restaurant and be surrounded by 10 - 50 people but you don't have to wear a mask whilst eating or drinking. It is obviously logical in the case of eating and drinking but if that risk is deemed acceptable why is the lesser risk if not wearing a mask outside not deemed acceptable. Contradictions everywhere.
 
I walked down the street a few minutes ago, yes it is hot and humid and I would prefer not to wear a mask.

But, even more than that, I like to be able to walk down the street, I like being able to leave the house for more than 4 reasons, I like to be able to go beyond 5KMs, I like to be able to go to a restaurant.

If that means wearing a mask indoors and outdoors then it is a very very small price to pay.

On another matter, my partner's sister recently visited Melbourne as their brother is in hospital. She has now returned to Perth and they have home quarantine. She, and her 2 teenage kids, are not allowed to leave the house for 2 weeks. I am actually warming to the idea of home quarantine. In Perth they must download an app which requires them to send photos of themselves standing in front of their dwelling a few times a day. They also get phone calls from the police to make sure they are home. Groceries are purchased online and delivered. Now, this isn't perfect but it is pretty damned good and, if there is an infection there are less people to spread it to in a single household as opposed to a hotel full of quarantining arrivals. Not to mention that a hotel full of people returning from wherever is more likely to have at least a couple of positive cases who can spread it around, whereas each household with only a few people, is less likely to have someone who is positive simply because there are less people in the house.

Still prefer quarantine camps but single households quarantining may well be preferable to putting them all in hotels. If they persist with hotels then they should not be bringing in new people every day or two as others leave, that just isn't quarantine. The idea must be to separate arrivals by their quarantine periods.

DS
 
Wow, is wearing a mask to help prevent any further outbreaks really that difficult? . . . Really?

DS

So there is proof they prevent further outbreaks? Unfortunately its a blanket decision not supported by the experience in other states nor by any evidence of widespread outdoor transmission.

And how many people are using them correctly?

 
Gee, masks not proven.

Well, locking people up in their houses and welding the door is proven, so let's do that instead.

As you can tell, I really find such a small imposition as wearing a mask to be a reasonable trade off especially when compared to the alternatives.

DS
 
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Gee, masks not proven.

Well, locking people up in their houses and welding the door is proven, so let's do that instead.

As you can tell, I really find such a small imposition as wearing a mask to be a reasonable trade off especially when compared to the alternatives.

DS
:bash
 
Yes that's my understanding. The thing that amazes me is that every photo you seem to see in the press (both hard copy and digital) that shows people gathering outside; hardly any of them are wearing masks!! At the beach (not swimming, just standing around or sitting on towels), in a bar or pub, walking down a busy shopping street. Very few masks. It appears a lot of people have already made the decision for themselves.

You have to wear a mask outside surrounded by no one but you can go to a restaurant and be surrounded by 10 - 50 people but you don't have to wear a mask whilst eating or drinking. It is obviously logical in the case of eating and drinking but if that risk is deemed acceptable why is the lesser risk if not wearing a mask outside not deemed acceptable. Contradictions everywhere.
yes. The use of masks is not really consistent I agree.

I drive past a lot of pubs going to and from work and there are a lot of people sitting outside having a drink maskless
 
yes. The use of masks is not really consistent I agree.

I drive past a lot of pubs going to and from work and there are a lot of people sitting outside having a drink maskless
Yeh, down in Frankston there is a place called The Hop shop. Last Friday there were at least 30 people sitting out the front none with a mask (not required in that situation obviously).

They probably had masks in their pockets which they would put on when they left.
 
Yeh, down in Frankston there is a place called The Hop shop. Last Friday there were at least 30 people sitting out the front none with a mask (not required in that situation obviously).

They probably had masks in their pockets which they would put on when they left.
The rules regarding wearing a mask when dining/drinking are awkward though. Wear it until you start eating/drinking then when you’ve finished eating/drinking put it back on.
 
Gee, masks not proven.

Well, locking people up in their houses and welding the door is proven, so let's do that instead.

As you can tell, I really find such a small imposition as wearing a mask to be a reasonable trade off especially when compared to the alternatives.

DS
David, you're pretty good with stats - as demonstrated.

Masks have had a reasonable role in reducing the spread of the virus. They say the risk of transmission is reduced by approx.. 60% when they are worn.

Can you calculate the benefit of a 60% reduction in transmission risk for 6 million people wearing masks when there is next to zero cases?
 
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The rules regarding wearing a mask when dining/drinking are awkward though. Wear it until you start eating/drinking then when you’ve finished eating/drinking put it back on.
was at the pub last Sat with a couple of PRE's finest, we removed masks when we got inside, I put mine back on 8 hours later when I staggered home.

the bar staff were wearing masks in different degrees of correctness !!
 
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David, you're pretty good with stats - as demonstrated.

Masks have had a reasonable role in reducing the spread of the virus. They say the risk of transmission is reduced by approx.. 60% when they are worn.

Can you calculate the benefit of a 60% reduction in transmission risk for 6 million people wearing masks when there is next to zero cases?

This is clearly a leading question.

I think the issue is the authorities are concerned that there might be some unknown remnants of Covid-19 out there in the community, ie asymptomatic cases. We will never know for sure if its gone, but if we are cautious for the 2 cycles that Sin mentioned, and no cases come up, then I think its fully expected that further restrictions would be reduced.

Masks are a low investment method to stop any spread (if any Covid-19 is still silently out there in the community). I think having been through what we have, it would seem stupid now (just because its getting warmer) to remove these low impact measures until we are a lot more certain of the current state of affairs.

It seems 10-11 days of no cases has made people forget what we've just gone through the last 4-5 months. Wearing masks for another couple of weeks is not a massive imposition IMO.
 
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David, you're pretty good with stats - as demonstrated.

Masks have had a reasonable role in reducing the spread of the virus. They say the risk of transmission is reduced by approx.. 60% when they are worn.

Can you calculate the benefit of a 60% reduction in transmission risk for 6 million people wearing masks when there is next to zero cases?
As David has said the concern is that there are undiagnosed cases out there. we saw a few months ago how quickly 1 or 2 cases can turn into 500.
I hate wearing a mask as much as anyone, especially as the weather warms, but can totally understand why they are being kept at this point.
I do hope there are some changes in the near future, such as not needing them when outside, but i also get that once there is grey people's attitudes will slacken even more.
 
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I have made my position on masks clear.

However, I will add that any policy has to straddle the efficacy of masks against community compliance.

I suspect we will see masks no longer compulsory outdoors in a few weeks but for now I think it a good idea to keep them on.

I would also like to know if they are testing the sewerage and any other form of random bulk testing they can think of. I'm sure some of this is happening but would be good to see if they can work out if there is some residual virus still circulating in the community. I wouldn't mind a bit of random testing just to make sure.

DS
 
As David has said the concern is that there are undiagnosed cases out there. we saw a few months ago how quickly 1 or 2 cases can turn into 500.

Especially in Victoria

I hate wearing a mask as much as anyone, especially as the weather warms, but can totally understand why they are being kept at this point.

Even though no other state has mandated them. And there is little evidence of the virus spreading outdoors.

I'm surprised that posters so fanatical on science and evidence can choose to endorse strategies that have little scientific basis.

Masks indoors in enclosed environments - tick. Masks when shopping - tick. Masks at work where social distancing not possible - tick.

But masks outdoors when walking, picnicing etc? You could argue that they give people a false sense of security. Despite many not wearing masks made of the correct material nor having them appropriately fitted. And also not practising proper mask/hand hygiene.

I can understand the theory that people will slacken if there is grey but the real risk are large family gatherings at homes, I think those are the restrictions that need to be firm and clear and also policed. The only way we will now have another wave is if quarantine is not managed properly or there are large family outbreaks.
 
Double donuts 13 days in a row :clap2 Massive test numbers as well; over 20,000!

I think they are blitzing the northern suburbs to make sure there are no residual cases hanging over from the outbreak at the Preston Islamic College a few weeks back.

Great results. Still a little concerned about NSW though. Many of the active cases are in the south west of Sydney and there may be a high risk of transmission through big family gatherings. They seem to have it curtailed but not beaten. Reckon we should leave that border closed until Christmas at least.
 
The rules regarding wearing a mask when dining/drinking are awkward though. Wear it until you start eating/drinking then when you’ve finished eating/drinking put it back on.
We've been dealing with that here for a few months.

Trick is to ensure that as soon as you sit down there is a glass of water in front of you which triggers the mask off. Make sure the glass is only removed once you have paid and ready to go.
 
I don't recall it being explicitly stated anywhere, but my belief was masks are less about the wearer catching the virus, and more to do preventing the wearer from spreading the virus. It basically forces everyone to cover their mouth when they cough or sneeze.

So despite people not wearing them correctly, or removing them without washing hands/sanitizing, they'll still have an effect in preventing the spread.

Personally, I'm happy to stick with mask wearing everywhere for the time being but understand some peoples frustration with them being required outdoors.
 
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David, you're pretty good with stats - as demonstrated.

Masks have had a reasonable role in reducing the spread of the virus. They say the risk of transmission is reduced by approx.. 60% when they are worn.

Can you calculate the benefit of a 60% reduction in transmission risk for 6 million people wearing masks when there is next to zero cases?

That 60% number is based on a paper outlining an experiment done on Hamsters in lab conditions.

The experiment strung up masks between cages, and gauged the number of infected hamsters during a fixed time period, compared to a control with no mask strung up.

It was also conducted in two ways, one in which the infected hamster cage had the mask, the other in which the uninfected hamster cage had the mask.

60% refers to the situation in which the infected hamsters were 'wearing' the mask.

This is not a number that can be applied to epidemiological predictions. It is simply the outcome of an experiment done in lab conditions showing that in hamsters, an effectively used mask can reduce transmission.

There is very minimal evidence to show the effectiveness of mask use at an epidemiological level. The problem is that there are so many extraneous variables in trying to analyse the data, as masks are rarely used in isolation as the only preventative measure. The logic is basically that, because they can do something when used properly under the right conditions, with the right people wearing them, it should be having an impact.

My biggest concern throughout this whole year, which I documented here at the start of all this, is that people will assume that wearing a mask magically protects them. I.e. "I can go out with a cold, I was wearing a mask" "We don't need to physically distance, we were all wearing masks".

It's certainly not possible to just add a 60% reduction in transmission to the current numbers.

I don't recall it being explicitly stated anywhere, but my belief was masks are less about the wearer catching the virus, and more to do preventing the wearer from spreading the virus. It basically forces everyone to cover their mouth when they cough or sneeze.

So despite people not wearing them correctly, or removing them without washing hands/sanitizing, they'll still have an effect in preventing the spread.

Personally, I'm happy to stick with mask wearing everywhere for the time being but understand some peoples frustration with them being required outdoors.

Different masks offer different levels of protection, but the standard surgical masks that most people are wearing are most effective when the infected person wears them. This is probably true for all masks, but the actual medical grade masks probably offer more protection to the uninfected person as well.
So there is proof they prevent further outbreaks? Unfortunately its a blanket decision not supported by the experience in other states nor by any evidence of widespread outdoor transmission.

And how many people are using them correctly?


It's a misunderstanding of the basic scientific method to ask for 'proof', before applying evidence based practice.

Proof is not a scientific word. It's the realm of mathematics and the legal system.

All scientists look for is evidence that either supports or refutes a hypothesis, then they construct the best models they can on that evidence to be challenged again. We don't need proof of mask effectiveness to have evidence that they can be effective, and therefore take action based on that evidence.

Often in Science, we're not following the proven path, just our best guess at the time until evidence suggests it's a bad one. At the moment, based on the current evidence, universal mask use makes sense as a precautionary measure. But as the situation changes, the precautionary measures we take will change, but that's more of an ethical discussion than a scientific one.
 
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All scientists look for is evidence that either supports or refutes a hypothesis, then they construct the best models they can on that evidence to be challenged again. We don't need proof of mask effectiveness to have evidence that they can be effective, and therefore take action based on that evidence.

Often in Science, we're not following the proven path, just our best guess at the time until evidence suggests it's a bad one. At the moment, based on the current evidence, universal mask use makes sense as a precautionary measure. But as the situation changes, the precautionary measures we take will change, but that's more of an ethical discussion than a scientific one.

This.

We don't really know the effectiveness of mask with any accuracy but that is not surprising as we are still learning more about the virus and also there are many strategies in place at once when it comes to reducing community transmission.

Masks do seem to have some impact so we go with that, and there are no side effects so why not.

As we get it under control we can relax the restrictions, but it makes sense given where we are now that we stay the course that has worked for a little while longer, and then should be able to relax restrictions further.

DS
 
As David has said the concern is that there are undiagnosed cases out there. we saw a few months ago how quickly 1 or 2 cases can turn into 500.
I hate wearing a mask as much as anyone, especially as the weather warms, but can totally understand why they are being kept at this point.
I do hope there are some changes in the near future, such as not needing them when outside, but i also get that once there is grey people's attitudes will slacken even more.
Undiagnosed cases are always a concern but you would expect that the longer the double doughnuts continue that gets less likely. You would assume that undiagnosed cases would be infecting others and we would see some in hospital etc and that is not happening.
Officially we have 3 cases in the state and whilst I don’t have any personal knowledge of them what I do know is that cases are listed as active until they are cleared so they may not even have COVID anymore, they just haven’t been officially cleared. That number went from 4 to 3 yesterday.
 
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