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America, will they ever learn? (Gun Control Debate)
- Thread starter Tigertool
- Start date
Re: America, will they ever learn?
Agree its been coming but this won't help the scenario at all. Clearly unprovoked shootings of black men are awful, and clearly racial profiling is rife in the US but isn't this just going to make it worse. There are some serious issues and tensions burning in the US, a pretty dangerous place to be right now I'd say.
rosy3 said:
Agree its been coming but this won't help the scenario at all. Clearly unprovoked shootings of black men are awful, and clearly racial profiling is rife in the US but isn't this just going to make it worse. There are some serious issues and tensions burning in the US, a pretty dangerous place to be right now I'd say.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
That's while they were serving. They are not issued ammunition with the gun when they finish service.Baloo said:
Re: America, will they ever learn?
Why do they pull a gun at all just to issue a ticket for a broken tail light?
Is it because the driver was black?
Why do they pull a gun at all just to issue a ticket for a broken tail light?
Is it because the driver was black?
Re: America, will they ever learn?
There has to be more to it than what is reported. The 2 deaths at the hands of police this week are very disturbing but there must be a reason why police jump to the gun at just the whiff of any danger. Bear in mind that this doesn't happen in other western countries.
I wonder how many times guns are pulled on police, so do they always go out their with concerns that guns are constantly pulled on them or not? Or do they just have pre-conceived ideas that this is what occurs in black communities?
I don't necessarily take too much notice of some stats, like for example the stats around % of people shot by police that are black compared to % of people who are black in the US. Sure the stat is correct and does seem disparate from each other, but all stats without context are just that.
I'd like to see the same stat based on other social comparatives, like for example wealth of suburb / wealth of person etc. Whilst wealth is not an accurate measure of the type of person, I'm sure violent crime stats will be higher in the poorer communities, whether that be gang related or not. Its well known that black people in the US seem to be in poorer locations, a legacy of the US past.
Perception is a massive thing in this and something that needs to change. Even people commenting on murders and shootings such as this have different perceptions on what should occur to the perpetrators.
Just from a perception viewpoint I'll provide some conversations I had with people (mostly over the net) when I was living in London. A man had started shooting out of his Chelsea house (highest net worth suburb in London) with a rifle. Some shots hit a childs bed in houses opposite (lucky kids weren't in bed). Police cleared the area but the man continued to shoot at police. They tried to talk him out, he wouldn't come, even slipped a note under the door saying "tell my wife I love her". Police went in and killed him. Responses to me were, "Why didn't they just let him fire until he was out of ammo and then go and arrest him, nobody was in danger as they had cleared the area". I heard so many of these. No doubt if this shooting was in Brixton / Peckham in South east london the response would have been more along the lines of "the police took too long and he had it coming to him".
Social class has a massive impact on perception and I think that is more where they are in the US. Are police more inclined to reach for their guns in poorer suburbs than rich ones whether or not the person they are pulling over / arresting is white or black? These areas probably have a much higher % of blacks than the general one across the US due to their past and racial segregation so I think would actually have a much closer % compared to blacks shot by police so I think this is more a social rather than a race issue and the question needs to be asked why police feel under so much more danger when in poorer suburbs.
Its a terrible scenario but one that the US will struggle to fix and both sides of the equation are at fault. How they fix it, who knows. I'm just glad that I live in a country that has a very different culture throughout, whether that be culture throughout Australia or the culture of the police.
23.21.159 said:
There has to be more to it than what is reported. The 2 deaths at the hands of police this week are very disturbing but there must be a reason why police jump to the gun at just the whiff of any danger. Bear in mind that this doesn't happen in other western countries.
I wonder how many times guns are pulled on police, so do they always go out their with concerns that guns are constantly pulled on them or not? Or do they just have pre-conceived ideas that this is what occurs in black communities?
I don't necessarily take too much notice of some stats, like for example the stats around % of people shot by police that are black compared to % of people who are black in the US. Sure the stat is correct and does seem disparate from each other, but all stats without context are just that.
I'd like to see the same stat based on other social comparatives, like for example wealth of suburb / wealth of person etc. Whilst wealth is not an accurate measure of the type of person, I'm sure violent crime stats will be higher in the poorer communities, whether that be gang related or not. Its well known that black people in the US seem to be in poorer locations, a legacy of the US past.
Perception is a massive thing in this and something that needs to change. Even people commenting on murders and shootings such as this have different perceptions on what should occur to the perpetrators.
Just from a perception viewpoint I'll provide some conversations I had with people (mostly over the net) when I was living in London. A man had started shooting out of his Chelsea house (highest net worth suburb in London) with a rifle. Some shots hit a childs bed in houses opposite (lucky kids weren't in bed). Police cleared the area but the man continued to shoot at police. They tried to talk him out, he wouldn't come, even slipped a note under the door saying "tell my wife I love her". Police went in and killed him. Responses to me were, "Why didn't they just let him fire until he was out of ammo and then go and arrest him, nobody was in danger as they had cleared the area". I heard so many of these. No doubt if this shooting was in Brixton / Peckham in South east london the response would have been more along the lines of "the police took too long and he had it coming to him".
Social class has a massive impact on perception and I think that is more where they are in the US. Are police more inclined to reach for their guns in poorer suburbs than rich ones whether or not the person they are pulling over / arresting is white or black? These areas probably have a much higher % of blacks than the general one across the US due to their past and racial segregation so I think would actually have a much closer % compared to blacks shot by police so I think this is more a social rather than a race issue and the question needs to be asked why police feel under so much more danger when in poorer suburbs.
Its a terrible scenario but one that the US will struggle to fix and both sides of the equation are at fault. How they fix it, who knows. I'm just glad that I live in a country that has a very different culture throughout, whether that be culture throughout Australia or the culture of the police.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
Texas recently legalising the carrying of Assault Rifles on the streets and in public places is a good starting point for a "how to fix" discussion.
Texas recently legalising the carrying of Assault Rifles on the streets and in public places is a good starting point for a "how to fix" discussion.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
There are clearly social issues involved but why do police feel they need to shoot someone when he is laying on the ground with 2 police on his back. And there would be much less angst involved if the police were actually properly prosecuted for their actions, the issue is that up until now they largely haven't been. Hopefully with these last 2 incidents they police involved will be.
mrposhman said:
There are clearly social issues involved but why do police feel they need to shoot someone when he is laying on the ground with 2 police on his back. And there would be much less angst involved if the police were actually properly prosecuted for their actions, the issue is that up until now they largely haven't been. Hopefully with these last 2 incidents they police involved will be.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
A few on here prepared to crucify the officer in Baton Rogue for the shooting of Alton Sterling. To think the police go out looking to shoot people of any color, let alone specifically black, is ludicrous.
My understanding is that the police were only there because of a 911 complaint against Sterling where he flashed a gun and threatened a homeless man. There are only four certainties based on the video footage that has been doing the rounds. The first is that the policemen were white. The second is that Sterling was black. The third is that the policeman shot Sterling. And the final one is that Sterling was resisting arrest.
Sterling was apparently known to police. He was on probation and therefore was not allowed to carry a gun. He had a lengthy criminal record including charges such as trespassing, criminal mischief, illegally possessing a weapon, aggravated burglary, public intimidation, criminal damage to property, robbery, theft, drug possession, giving a false name during booking, battery, aggravated burglary, resisting arrest by force, possessing a firearm with drugs, assault and was listed as a registered sex offender after impregnating a 14 year old girl when he was 20.
So you've got a guy with an extensive criminal record who has already spent time in Louisiana's prison system, carrying an illegal fire arm and resisting arrest. And instead of defending the officer involved in the shooting people are prepared to side with the victim mentality group and scream murder. I'd love to know how many would be prepared to confront someone such as Sterling knowing that he was carrying a gun and maybe of the mindset that rather than go back to jail he won't go down without a fight. He wasn't a loving farther of five, he was a deadbeat dad that owed a stack of money in child support.
It's pretty simple. If you are confronted by a police officer, be respectful, do what you are asked to do without an attitude and these things don't happen.
A few on here prepared to crucify the officer in Baton Rogue for the shooting of Alton Sterling. To think the police go out looking to shoot people of any color, let alone specifically black, is ludicrous.
My understanding is that the police were only there because of a 911 complaint against Sterling where he flashed a gun and threatened a homeless man. There are only four certainties based on the video footage that has been doing the rounds. The first is that the policemen were white. The second is that Sterling was black. The third is that the policeman shot Sterling. And the final one is that Sterling was resisting arrest.
Sterling was apparently known to police. He was on probation and therefore was not allowed to carry a gun. He had a lengthy criminal record including charges such as trespassing, criminal mischief, illegally possessing a weapon, aggravated burglary, public intimidation, criminal damage to property, robbery, theft, drug possession, giving a false name during booking, battery, aggravated burglary, resisting arrest by force, possessing a firearm with drugs, assault and was listed as a registered sex offender after impregnating a 14 year old girl when he was 20.
So you've got a guy with an extensive criminal record who has already spent time in Louisiana's prison system, carrying an illegal fire arm and resisting arrest. And instead of defending the officer involved in the shooting people are prepared to side with the victim mentality group and scream murder. I'd love to know how many would be prepared to confront someone such as Sterling knowing that he was carrying a gun and maybe of the mindset that rather than go back to jail he won't go down without a fight. He wasn't a loving farther of five, he was a deadbeat dad that owed a stack of money in child support.
It's pretty simple. If you are confronted by a police officer, be respectful, do what you are asked to do without an attitude and these things don't happen.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
That is definitely not certain. If anything the latest video definitely shows his right arm free. Yes his right arm, the same side of his body that the second officer removes the illegal gun he was carrying from.
Harry said:
That is definitely not certain. If anything the latest video definitely shows his right arm free. Yes his right arm, the same side of his body that the second officer removes the illegal gun he was carrying from.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
Yep. And if you didn't you'd get a decent clip around the ears especially if you were caught underage drinking in a park and you wanted to act tough in front of your mates when the divvy van rolled up. All it needed was one clip to ensure the next time they rolled up you did what was asked.
Big Country said:
Yep. And if you didn't you'd get a decent clip around the ears especially if you were caught underage drinking in a park and you wanted to act tough in front of your mates when the divvy van rolled up. All it needed was one clip to ensure the next time they rolled up you did what was asked.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
Theres always a proportion of society that will jump on the cops immediately so you are right all information needs to be known before passing judgement.
I remember a case in the UK where an unarmed man was shot outside a pub. He had told people inside the pub that he had a gun. The police were called. He came out of the pub and raised said "gun" (which was inside a garbage bag) pointing at the police so they shot him dead. The "gun" was actually a table leg. Sure the guy was drunk but who in their right mind raises a table leg (that they've told people was a gun) and point it at police when they have guns pointed at you. The public reaction was it was a table leg, couldn't hurt you. One of the papers got hold of a rifle, put it in a garbage bag and did the same with a table leg and laid them side by side on the front page. There was no way you could tell which one had the gun and which one didn't, it was also dark that wouldn't have helped visibility.
People will always bag the cops as some always have a mistrust.
The one that concerns me the most is the one in the car (from the last week). Unfortunately only the aftermath was recorded (from what I've seen). His girlfriends testimony is that he had declared to the officer that he was armed, that he was reaching for his wallet and then the cop shot him 4 times. Initial thoughts are that this one sounds more cupable than others. A bit like the cop a few months ago who shot a guy in the back live on his on board camera. These are the guys that should be sent down as they bring a bad name to the cops. I don't neceassrily like the rhetoric that is being stated by the Black Lives Matter group. One of their leaders stated over the weekend after the police shootings that "not all officers are bad". That statement insinuates that most are bad and some are good, when the likelihood is that the complete opposite is true. This rhetoric encourages impressionale people to carry out events like what occurred last week.
What comes to mind in the vast majority of these shootings though is the same thing. What if there wasn't a gun involved in any of this arrests. Both of those killed by police were carrying a weapon, had they not been then maybe a totally different outcome would have occurred. Not condoning cops killing people at all, just thinking that gun control should be at the top of any agenda here. Gun culture is rife in the US. I actually worked for the police as a special constable (voluntary) back in the UK. When I moved to London I packed it in, as the chance to get involved in a scenario where a gun was involved was greater in London. I don't really understand why cops become cops in the US. Its a hugely dangerous job over there and they do not get remunerated enough for the risk that they take IMO.
Big Country said:
Theres always a proportion of society that will jump on the cops immediately so you are right all information needs to be known before passing judgement.
I remember a case in the UK where an unarmed man was shot outside a pub. He had told people inside the pub that he had a gun. The police were called. He came out of the pub and raised said "gun" (which was inside a garbage bag) pointing at the police so they shot him dead. The "gun" was actually a table leg. Sure the guy was drunk but who in their right mind raises a table leg (that they've told people was a gun) and point it at police when they have guns pointed at you. The public reaction was it was a table leg, couldn't hurt you. One of the papers got hold of a rifle, put it in a garbage bag and did the same with a table leg and laid them side by side on the front page. There was no way you could tell which one had the gun and which one didn't, it was also dark that wouldn't have helped visibility.
People will always bag the cops as some always have a mistrust.
The one that concerns me the most is the one in the car (from the last week). Unfortunately only the aftermath was recorded (from what I've seen). His girlfriends testimony is that he had declared to the officer that he was armed, that he was reaching for his wallet and then the cop shot him 4 times. Initial thoughts are that this one sounds more cupable than others. A bit like the cop a few months ago who shot a guy in the back live on his on board camera. These are the guys that should be sent down as they bring a bad name to the cops. I don't neceassrily like the rhetoric that is being stated by the Black Lives Matter group. One of their leaders stated over the weekend after the police shootings that "not all officers are bad". That statement insinuates that most are bad and some are good, when the likelihood is that the complete opposite is true. This rhetoric encourages impressionale people to carry out events like what occurred last week.
What comes to mind in the vast majority of these shootings though is the same thing. What if there wasn't a gun involved in any of this arrests. Both of those killed by police were carrying a weapon, had they not been then maybe a totally different outcome would have occurred. Not condoning cops killing people at all, just thinking that gun control should be at the top of any agenda here. Gun culture is rife in the US. I actually worked for the police as a special constable (voluntary) back in the UK. When I moved to London I packed it in, as the chance to get involved in a scenario where a gun was involved was greater in London. I don't really understand why cops become cops in the US. Its a hugely dangerous job over there and they do not get remunerated enough for the risk that they take IMO.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
Don't know about you but I'm not sure I would give the benefit of the doubt to someone like Sterling who I knew was carrying a gun. I would think that a few days working that neighborhood in Baton Rouge and any normal person would be a bit hesitant.
Harry said:
Don't know about you but I'm not sure I would give the benefit of the doubt to someone like Sterling who I knew was carrying a gun. I would think that a few days working that neighborhood in Baton Rouge and any normal person would be a bit hesitant.
Re: America, will they ever learn?
Yep good post. The shooting in Minnesota is definitely less clear cut in my opinion. But I maintain you can't say definitively, based on that video the girlfriend took, that it was anything more than a terrible accident.
I can see how to most it doesn't look good. However part of getting a concealed carry license they make it very clear what to do when pulled over by the police. Telling the police man you have a gun and then going digging through your console is not the way to do it. You need to keep your hands where the officer can see them (e.g. on the steering wheel), tell him you are licensed to have a concealed weapon and that you have one in the car and then wait until the officer directs you on how he wants to deal with it. Like I said, more than likely a terrible accident.
mrposhman said:
Yep good post. The shooting in Minnesota is definitely less clear cut in my opinion. But I maintain you can't say definitively, based on that video the girlfriend took, that it was anything more than a terrible accident.
I can see how to most it doesn't look good. However part of getting a concealed carry license they make it very clear what to do when pulled over by the police. Telling the police man you have a gun and then going digging through your console is not the way to do it. You need to keep your hands where the officer can see them (e.g. on the steering wheel), tell him you are licensed to have a concealed weapon and that you have one in the car and then wait until the officer directs you on how he wants to deal with it. Like I said, more than likely a terrible accident.
