911 Truth Movement

[bullus_hit]

So let's do a stock take who'd need to be in on the conspiracy.

Thousands of eye witnesses
The Government
The NYPD
Ambulance service
Fire brigades
Insurance companies
Staff and Employees
Emergency services
Journos
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Commission members
NYC Office of Emergency management
Others?

Not having one leak amongst all of those people, many highly qualified and in responsible positions, makes the logistics of a terrorist attack seem like child's play.

How did you come up with that list may I ask?

A demolition squad would be required, not beyond the realms of possibility given Silvermann's connections. Security at Silvermann's buildings was run by George Bush's brother Marvin, so let's assume rigging the building wouldn't have been out of the question. CIA & FBI, sure, there would have to be someone working alongside the government to ensure the planes hit their targets (and at least 3 out of 4 did). The military, maybe, we know that Rumsfeld was turning the screws so maybe there was a little blackmail and arm twisting.

As for emergency workers, insurance companies, journos and staff, what's their role? They certainly didn't benefit and wouldn't have had any use in the plot.

Foreign entities, maybe, that all depends on whether you believe the US planned everything from go to woe or they just let the terrorists do their work unincumbered. If it's the former then probably the Saudi royal family and possibly Mossad given Silvermann's close links with Israel.

As for eye-witnesses, what are we looking for here? People suspicious about rigging a building? Detonation teams? Airport staff?

I just don't think that the web had to be an extensive as some people are making out, and I'm sure anyone with even a shred of evidence would have trouble finding a place to whistleblow (assuming they avoided assassination).

 

[Disco08]

So let's do a stock take who'd need to be in on the conspiracy.

Thousands of eye witnesses
The Government
The NYPD
Ambulance service
Fire brigades
Insurance companies
Staff and Employees
Emergency services
Journos
National Institute of Standards and Technology
Commission members
NYC Office of Emergency management
Others?
Plus..
Explosion experts
Larry and Barry

Not having one leak amongst all of those people, many highly qualified and in responsible positions, makes the logistics of a terrorist attack seem like child's play.

You're assuming all 3 towers were demolished. What if none were and the US administration simply ignored warnings and did the odd thing along the way to make sure the attacks succeeded?

Also if you think hijacking 4 commercial airliners and flying them around the most protected airspace in the world (on high alert because they were warned you were up to something) for an hour and a half is easy in comparison to anything I reckon you underestimate the resources and technology the US had at their disposal at the time. I'd take my chances at covertly rigging up the towers myself.

Have you had a look at either of the docos I've been suggesting?

goldpost

Thanks.

 

[Disco08]

Did I say that? I don't think I did. I said I don't have concerns and as such I don't accept that I have "given up on the victims" I think it is an emotive call but I don't think it has any substance.

So you support a proper investigation and acknowledge that the 9/11 commission was inadequate?

I have asserted no such thing. I have simply said that I don't accept that much of the "evidence" presented constitutes anything close to "evidence" it is conjecture and speculation and has on numerous occasions on this thread been shown to be based on erroneous information. I don't find that the case for an alternative explanation that involves clandestine demolition and the necessary conspiracy I believe this implies has been made.

So you don't support a proper investigation?

Have you watched those docos?

 

[Rosy]

You're assuming all 3 towers were demolished.

I am? :headscratch

 

[Disco08]

Aren't you?

 

[KnightersRevenge]

So you support a proper investigation and acknowledge that the 9/11 commission was inadequate?

I've never claimed to be a supporter of the OR that is just your desperate need to pidgeonhole people.

So you don't support a proper investigation?

Have you watched those docos?

I've explained why a new investigation is pointless. The evidence is gone and cannot be recreated. I've now watched most of Azzas doco. Not much there that I can see. Have you ever noticed that both towers begin their decent exactly where they were hit in the manner I described earlier? So did the pilots aim for the explosives (they must have been even better than they guy in Washington huh?) or did the demo guys have all the floors rigged and just "pull" the ones near the impacts do you think?

 

[tigertim]

How did you come up with that list may I ask?

A demolition squad would be required, not beyond the realms of possibility given Silvermann's connections. Security at Silvermann's buildings was run by George Bush's brother Marvin, so let's assume rigging the building wouldn't have been out of the question. CIA & FBI, sure, there would have to be someone working alongside the government to ensure the planes hit their targets (and at least 3 out of 4 did). The military, maybe, we know that Rumsfeld was turning the screws so maybe there was a little blackmail and arm twisting.

As for emergency workers, insurance companies, journos and staff, what's their role? They certainly didn't benefit and wouldn't have had any use in the plot.

Foreign entities, maybe, that all depends on whether you believe the US planned everything from go to woe or they just let the terrorists do their work unincumbered. If it's the former then probably the Saudi royal family and possibly Mossad given Silvermann's close links with Israel.

As for eye-witnesses, what are we looking for here? People suspicious about rigging a building? Detonation teams? Airport staff?

I just don't think that the web had to be an extensive as some people are making out, and I'm sure anyone with even a shred of evidence would have trouble finding a place to whistleblow (assuming they avoided assassination).

A couple of questions if I may.

What were the vacancy rates that you referred to previously at Silversteins wtc7?

What involvement did G w Bushs brother play in security?

 

[evo]

Wrong - it had a central core and then a distributed tubular column structure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center#Structural_design

Of course this messes with the theory that somehow a team could prewire these two huge structures for demolition without any of the thousands of workers and visitors there noticing (and I include maintenance workers and others who had access to elevators, crawl spaces and other "off-limits" areas).

If you have any evidence of crews (video footage, eye witness accounts, anything Bueller) performing the installation of this demolition system, please share it. If you don't, I must dismiss your theory of controlled demolition as not supported.

Yes I do. And scepticism is fine.

I look at it this way. None of us were there (as far as I know). All the information we received is second hand - tv reports, video footage, eye witness accounts. You say how can we disregard the number <x> of witness who saw a plane with no windows or whatever - and yet there are <x> times 1000 who were there and do not dispute the generally accepted version of events. Terrorists hijacked planes, flew them into buildings, they were damaged and caught fire, and eventually collapsed.

So it's incredibly easy for us to ignore the <x> times one thousand witnesses and find one witness (or some video footage or something) that supports a theory like the ones you support. And of course, I haven't been there, I wasn't there, so I'm getting all my info secondhand just like you ... but just like I've never actually seen Barack Obama in the flesh, there is enough circumstantial evidence there for me to believe that he really does exist. Of course, it could be a massive conspiracy, he could be a computer generated hologram, and I'm the victim of a reverse Truman Show scenario, but meh, good enough, I'm convinced.

In the 9/11 case what is being suggested is a conspiracy so massive in scale, so audacious in conception, so complete in its secrecy, that it is many orders of magnitude less likely to be able to pull off than the actual terrorist attack that I believe occurred... And all this without one - even one - person who was in on the conspiracy coming forward and saying "we did it, I feel a bit bad about it, so I'm coming clean and Bush and Cheney are going down with me".

I mean, sorry Disco, get real man.

Yep, that's about the size of it.

In the end one can only weigh it up on the balance of probabilities. In my book, the likelihood of two world landmarks being wired up for demolition, and a missile being shot into the Pentagon, without anyone noticing is just too ludicrous to countenance. Most of the rest of the 'search for truth' is just noise.

 

[Leysy Days]

After reading all the evidence & counter-evidence on this thread your summary sums it up perfectly for leysy as well evo.

 

[tigertim]

Disco, can you direct me to where its fact that Jeb Bush collected Attas flight training records. I've searched and all I fid is "truthers" websites repeating the same lines (literally).

The best I read was that an un-named lawman said that federal government agents confiscated the records and took them to a plane that had Bush in it.

 

[bullus_hit]

A couple of questions if I may.

What were the vacancy rates that you referred to previously at Silversteins wtc7?

What involvement did G w Bushs brother play in security?

To your first question Tim, I haven't managed to get the exact figures but I did manage to retrieve the following information relating to their unprofitability -

2001 July 24: Despite the WTC being unprofitable, corroded and insulated with asbestos that could not be cost effectively removed, Larry Silverstein acquires a 99-year lease for WTC 1, 2, 4 and 5 for $3.2 billion using only $14 million of his money with the right to rebuild the structures, should they be destroyed, even by an act of terrorism. An act of war, which would normally preclude a pay-off..

NY Fed told AIG to Withhold Swap Info from Public - AIG was the insurance company who covered the WTC 1, 2, and 7 with Terrorists Insurance. The Terrorist Insurance Policy was written three weeks before 911. The Towers had never had Terrorist Insurance written on them before. If the president had announced that 911 was an "Act of War," the Insurance would not have paid, but since the President immediately announced it was an "Act of Terror" it was covered. AIG has recouped its Terrorist Policy Payout from 911 with 180 Billion dollars in bailout money from American taxpayers.

And to the second question regarding Marvin Bush -

Marvin P. Bush, the president's younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport and from 1999 to January of 2002 (Marvin and George W.'s cousin) Wirt Walker III was the company's CEO.

And here's a short clip on some strange events leading up to 9/11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZKS73tNVL8

 

[tigertim]

To your first question Tim, I haven't managed to get the exact figures but I did manage to retrieve the following information relating to their unprofitability -

2001 July 24: Despite the WTC being unprofitable, corroded and insulated with asbestos that could not be cost effectively removed, Larry Silverstein acquires a 99-year lease for WTC 1, 2, 4 and 5 for $3.2 billion using only $14 million of his money with the right to rebuild the structures, should they be destroyed, even by an act of terrorism. An act of war, which would normally preclude a pay-off..

NY Fed told AIG to Withhold Swap Info from Public - AIG was the insurance company who covered the WTC 1, 2, and 7 with Terrorists Insurance. The Terrorist Insurance Policy was written three weeks before 911. The Towers had never had Terrorist Insurance written on them before. If the president had announced that 911 was an "Act of War," the Insurance would not have paid, but since the President immediately announced it was an "Act of Terror" it was covered. AIG has recouped its Terrorist Policy Payout from 911 with 180 Billion dollars in bailout money from American taxpayers.

And to the second question regarding Marvin Bush -

Marvin P. Bush, the president's younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport and from 1999 to January of 2002 (Marvin and George W.'s cousin) Wirt Walker III was the company's CEO.

And here's a short clip on some strange events leading up to 9/11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZKS73tNVL8

Ok, I'm led to believe that the vacancy rates was 2% not the 25% mentioned by theorist websites.

Your point re the insurance. I have no idea what you're trying to infer. It was an terrorist act not an act of war. Surely even the theorists aren't going to say it was an act of war? And why wouldn't an act of terrorism be included. Are you aware it's in many insurance contracts? Remember WTC was attacked in 1993 too.

And I'm also lead to believe that Marvin Bush worked for Securacom up until 2000! Securacom did some work in the towers. Security for the towers I believe was done by port authority. I'm also led to believe that Walt III isn't even Bushs cousin!

Your not just getting all of your info from one sided truthers websites by any chance?

 

[Disco08]

Disco, can you direct me to where its fact that Jeb Bush collected Attas flight training records. I've searched and all I fid is "truthers" websites repeating the same lines (literally).

The best I read was that an un-named lawman said that federal government agents confiscated the records and took them to a plane that had Bush in it.

Yeah I only find it on truther sites too but also can't find it being debunked anywhere. Only really a curiosity anyway.

Yep, that's about the size of it.

In the end one can only weigh it up on the balance of probabilities. In my book, the likelihood of two world landmarks being wired up for demolition, and a missile being shot into the Pentagon, without anyone noticing is just too ludicrous to countenance. Most of the rest of the 'search for truth' is just noise.

No offense evo but you're 100% wrong. The truth movement is driven mainly by the failings of the 9/11 commission. The demand is generally for a proper examination of the evidence (especially on why so much evidence was destroyed and suppressed) and analysis of the US administration's performance. After that there is a strong expert driven push for a re-examination of the WTC7 collapse because these people are extremely critical of the NIST report. No doubt there's a lot of other stuff around but it's not all supported by every person that doesn't think the 9/11 commission wasn't good enough.

 

[evo]

No offense evo but you're 100% wrong. The truth movement is driven mainly by the failings of the 9/11 commission. T

pfffftt. In the end the troofers have to take ownership of what they're implying.

As I've said a number of times in this thread what is the point of this "questioning of the facts" unless you honestly believe the buildings were bought down by controlled demolition and various other conspiracies.

What is the point of 2 hour investigations of thermite, anti gravity 'balls', sizes of holes in the Pentagon, lack of plane debris, allegations of insider trading,measuring free fall speed to the nth degree....... and on and on it goes.

FFS at least take responsibility for what you beoieve about this event instead of hiding behind " oh we just want to find the truth" it is soft as in my view..

 

[Disco08]

I've never claimed to be a supporter of the OR that is just your desperate need to pidgeonhole people.

I've explained why a new investigation is pointless. The evidence is gone and cannot be recreated. I've now watched most of Azzas doco. Not much there that I can see. Have you ever noticed that both towers begin their decent exactly where they were hit in the manner I described earlier? So did the pilots aim for the explosives (they must have been even better than they guy in Washington huh?) or did the demo guys have all the floors rigged and just "pull" the ones near the impacts do you think?

Dunno. Are you saying all these experts missed something you picked up? Amazed you don't think there's much there though. None of the analysis from people specifically expert in the relevant fields impressed you at all?

I don't have a desperate need to pidgeonhole you mate (narky much?). I just want to now exactly where you stand. So you don't support the OR (any reason in particular?) but you also don't support a new investigation? What evidence that the 9/11 commission was allowed access to has since disappeared IYO?

 

[tigertim]

pfffftt. In the end the troofers have to take ownership of what they're implying.

As I've said a number of times in this thread what is the point of this "questioning of the facts" unless you honestly believe the buildings were bought down by controlled demolition and various other conspiracies.

What is the point of 2 hour investigations of thermite, anti gravity 'balls', sizes of holes in the Pentagon, lack of plane debris, allegations of insider trading,measuring free fall speed to the nth degree....... and on and on it goes.

FFS at least take responsibility for what you beoieve about this event instead of hiding behind " oh we just want to find the truth" it is soft as in my view..

Bravo!

 

[Disco08]

pfffftt. In the end the troofers have to take ownership of what they're implying.

As I've said a number of times in this thread what is the point of this "questioning of the facts" unless you honestly believe the buildings were bought down by controlled demolition and various other conspiracies.

What is the point of 2 hour investigations of thermite, anti gravity 'balls', sizes of holes in the Pentagon, lack of devrplane debri, allegations of insider trading,measing free fall speed to the nth degree....... and on and on it goes.

FFS at least take responsibility for what you beoieve about this event instead of hiding behind " oh we just want to find the truth" it is soft as in my view..

Yeah the guy who lost his son in WTC1 is soft as for wanting a new investigation because he believes the first one was a joke and answered none of his questions. He should just get over it.

Honestly how much do you know about the 9/11 commission and the criticisms of it?

You mention the insider trading evidence too. Any thoughts on that?

As for the point of questioning the OR - surely that's obvious. 3000 people died. For a start their friends and families deserve a proper inquiry into how their government failed to notice the flood of specific warnings given to them from other countries. They haven't ever been given that and that's wrong.

 

[tigertim]

How did you come up with that list may I ask?

A demolition squad would be required, not beyond the realms of possibility given Silvermann's connections. Security at Silvermann's buildings was run by George Bush's brother Marvin, so let's assume rigging the building wouldn't have been out of the question. CIA & FBI, sure, there would have to be someone working alongside the government to ensure the planes hit their targets (and at least 3 out of 4 did). The military, maybe, we know that Rumsfeld was turning the screws so maybe there was a little blackmail and arm twisting.

As for emergency workers, insurance companies, journos and staff, what's their role? They certainly didn't benefit and wouldn't have had any use in the plot.

Foreign entities, maybe, that all depends on whether you believe the US planned everything from go to woe or they just let the terrorists do their work unincumbered. If it's the former then probably the Saudi royal family and possibly Mossad given Silvermann's close links with Israel.

Oh dear, seriously? The Saudis AND the Jews? Well we know the Jews were warned not to attend WTC on September 11 so maybe......

 

[Disco08]

What honestly baffles me is why all you guys are so dead set against a proper investigation. All it costs is money. To spend 10 times the amount spent on the 9/11 commission you only need 0.01% of the $2.3tr the US DoD knows it's spent over the last decade but can't account for. Are you all so convinced that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice are good people that have no responsibility at all for what happened that you want to lend them your support?

 

[bullus_hit]

Ok, I'm led to believe that the vacancy rates was 2% not the 25% mentioned by theorist websites.

Your point re the insurance. I have no idea what you're trying to infer. It was an terrorist act not an act of war. Surely even the theorists aren't going to say it was an act of war? And why wouldn't an act of terrorism be included. Are you aware it's in many insurance contracts? Remember WTC was attacked in 1993 too.

Just highlighting the fact that the towers had never been insured for terrorism prior, the policy which was signed three weeks beforehand made all the difference to the awarding of compensation. If I'm wrong then I'm happy to stand corrected.

As for Marvin Bush , just double checked and you are right about the 2000 date, don't know a thing about Wirt (sad name). As to whether he had connections to Securacom's work leading up to September 11, I wouldn't know because there's been an official no comment coming out of the Whitehouse. But in terms of the Port Authority being responsible, they were the leaseholders so they would be the ones to contract the work out. They awarded a contract to Securacom who wired the building and performed maintainance.

Ultimately, the blackouts, the absence of sniffer dogs and the shutting down of security systems could just be a red herring. I don't know but I'm curious to know how long it would take to wire up a building of that size.

Oh dear, seriously? The Saudis AND the Jews? Well we know the Jews were warned not to attend WTC on September 11 so maybe......

Just musing to myself there Timbo, you guys seem to be working yourself into frenzy over each and every comment. It makes being a conspiracy theorist kind of fun. :hihi