911 Truth Movement

[RfC77]

While in theory an independent investigation would be good, in reality it will either never happen or in the case that it does happen it will be undertaken by "hand-picked" individuals who will be studying evidence with a gun pointed at their backs. In my eyes the US authorities has too much riding on the whole fiasco.. if they ever dared admitted to staging the event it will probably cause massive upheavals.

 

[tigersnake]

There you go again. How's that search for a credible expert who supports ID going?

dunno if this helps, search took 10 seconds, just copied first link that came up, there were lots:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/scientists_who_support_intelli003594.html

 

[poppa x]

If you're bored there are still a couple of unanswered questions for you on the ALeague thread.

having had one on one dealings with Adidas, I know where I stand Baloo.

 

[Disco08]

Which means what, that you were wrong about that plane? And the flight recorders, and that there is a evidence of "human remains" 8 miles from the flight 93 crash site? That's a lot of wrong.

Your reasoning is based on TM nonsense about explosives, and contradictory eyewitness accounts, and removed evidence which you still haven't provided proof of by the way. I haven't jumped to the defence of anything, I have asked for something other than conjecture to be provided to back your story.

There are reasonable explanations that have been provided, you don't accept them okay, but they are out there and they are reasonable.

You're the one who's wrong and ignorng evdidence about the crash and debris of flight 93. I don't expect you to admit that any time soon though. I wasn't wrong about the gray plane because I never suggested that's what it was. I was asking questions and answered them for myself in no time. Yes I was wrong about the flight recorders. I've admitted that and can't see why it's a big deal. The greater point, which you've ignored again, is the suppression of the evidence contained within them.

I provided proof of the removal and destruction of crucial evidence pages back. If my reasoning (also based on the US reaction to events) is based on nonsense how about you address some of the points I've made? You can assert that you haven't staunchly defended the OR all you like. I can assure you that's not how it appears.

If there are reasonable explanatons present them. Don't just say they're out there. Like I said to Tim, I address every point you guys make. When you start doing the same you can get on your high horse.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

do you not question the way the investigations were conducted where the investigators themselves claimed they were compromised, lied to and evidence witheld?

Why keep bringing this up? It has been addressed by myself and others. I find it plausible that the US government were not entirely cooperative or forthcoming in the investigation, but you will notice that the investigators still drew conclusions, despite these problems. How this implies that the government were involved or complicit is the connection that I fail to see.

 

[Disco08]

I did know that. And in a way it is pretty disheartening for your case that such a meagre % signed it.
No it probably wasn't adequate. Big ferking deal. Most people will say they think any report is "inadequate".It is like asking someone "Should the government spend more on education".

Bloody oath it is lame. If all the thread was aboutis should they commision another report it probably would've ended at page 1. The reason we are on page 30 is because truthers keep suggesting demolitions, holograms and missiles hitting the pentagon are plausible.

Yet the poll result has more people not wanting to see a proper investigation. That's a far greater cause for debate IMO. I can't believe an apparent free thinker like you thinks that's lame.

2000 isn't meagre at all. Don't you think the point about US patriotism I made is valid? It also doesn't speak one way or another to the opinion of the other 98000 experts.

You don't think the investigation was adequate but that's not a big deal? Is it a big deal for the families who lost loved ones because of US incompetence/complicity? Don't you think a thorough independent is the best way to find the causes and prevent them from happening again? For someone who actually thinks Noam is right about US incompetence and that ilooks like it was demolished you certainly are passionate about not getting to the bottom of these things.

 

[Harry]

Yes you are, and I am asking you why? Why do you believe that your lack of knowledge makes things you don't understand impossible?

question works both ways dude. just replace the word impossible with possible. you state it's true because a shonky investigation said so. that's all you've got to rely on, as all I've got is my suspicion and perception of logic. wtc7 collapsing in a neat fasion at free fall, when no other building in history has collapsed like that, does not make sense to me. a commercial plane piercing 6 concrete walls does not make sense to me. a passport found in perfect condition at ground zero does not make sense to me. and many others. And as you are not an expert in any of these fields all you have to counter these questions is the official report findings. again why do the findings make you believe they were possible? oh, that's right you can't comment coz you're not an expert in the fields and you'll only be guessing.

 

[Disco08]

dunno if this helps, search took 10 seconds, just copied first link that came up, there were lots:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/scientists_who_support_intelli003594.html

And a 10 second search will yield plenty of criticism of them. Credible experts please mate.

 

[Disco08]

George Bush is a bazillionaire? Seriously the guy as a US president is set for life anyway. Big stretch IMO to suggest he killed millions of innocents for millions of dollars.
How about all his cronies who are in on it? Are they now bazllionaires too?
I just don't get the notion that the number of people required to set this up and execute it are all walking around filthy rich without the guilty consciences to match.
They'd have to be the devil incarnate to unleash that sort of pain on their own citizens. Someone would have snapped. Someone would have spilled the beans by now.
Or are they sipping cocktails in the Bahamas?

Sorry Disco that means little to the point I am trying to make. This hijacking was hardly a foolproof plan.
What if one of the passengers managed to stop the hijackers? What if they were caught at the security gates?
The whole thing could have fallen apart very easily.

The Americans could have started a war against someone a hell of a lot easier than that if they wanted to.

Look into Operation Northwoods Tooheys. Then read some of the circumstantial evidence surrounding the events of 9/11. If that doesn't at least open your mind to the possibility there's nothing more I can do.

 

[Harry]

Why keep bringing this up? It has been addressed by myself and others. I find it plausible that the US government were not entirely cooperative or forthcoming in the investigation, but you will notice that the investigators still drew conclusions, despite these problems. How this implies that the government were involved or complicit is the connection that I fail to see.

So you are satisfied that the findings reflect what actually occured and nothing was fabricated?

even though the govt were not cooperative and forthcoming you will accept it as the truth and see no value in a proper investigation, even though 3000 people lost their lives? you see no value in a proper independant investigation because it's a waste of money

 

[evo]

For someone who actually thinks Noam is right about US incompetence and that ilooks like it was demolished you certainly are passionate about not getting to the bottom of these things.

Surely my watching of dozens of hours of these truther docos, god knows how many hours spent reading threads like this on other forums would indicate I'm somewhat passionate about getting to the bottom of things. At least on a personal level.

But surely you have gathered by now that I put very little stock in any government utterence, and in particular any report they come out with. In that regard I am kindred spirits with you and Horatio. As if a second investigation would "find the causes and prevent them from happening again? ". How does investigating whether a missile hit the Pentagon and holographic plane theories prevent 9/11 from happening again? haha

Given my general misgivings about all governments why would I particulalry care if the government initiated another investigation 10 years later. More to the point why would you care so pationately about it?If a new report comes out saying that it was 19 arabs who flew planes into a buildings again, you will call whitewash and around around the mulberry bush we go.

As I said, the only interesting thing to me about a thread like this are people's level of credulity and ability to apply clear thinking. It is why I like threads like the Christianity one as well.

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

So you are satisfied that the findings reflect what actually occured and nothing was fabricated?

even though the govt were not cooperative and forthcoming you will accept it as the truth and see no value in a proper investigation, even though 3000 people lost their lives? you see no value in a proper independant investigation because it's a waste of money

What evidence do you have for fabrication?

How would you ensure a 'proper, independent investigation'? Evo's latest points are very pertinent here.

 

[Disco08]

Surely my watching of dozens of hours of these truther docos, god knows how many hours spent reading threads like this on other forums would indicate I'm somewhat passionate about getting to the bottom of things. At least on a personal level.

But surely you have gathered by now that I put very little stock in any government utterence, and in particular any report they come out with. In that regard I am kindred spirits with you and Horatio. As if a second investigation would "find the causes and prevent them from happening again? ". How does investigating whether a missile hit the Pentagon and holographic plane theories prevent 9/11 from happening again? haha

Given my general misgivings about all governments why would I particulalry care if the government initiated another investigation 10 years later. More to the point why would you care so pationately about it?If a new report comes out saying that it was 19 arabs who flew planes into a buildings again, you will call whitewash and around around the mulberry bush we go.

As I said, the only interesting thing to me about a thread like this are people's level of credulity and ability to apply clear thinking. It is why I like threads like the Christianity one as well.

That's wrong on a couple of points mate. I'll accept an independent investigation's results no matter what they are as long as the process is transparent and the evidence available for public scrutiny as it should be. To that end most people would agree it should only focus on the evidence available (all of it) and not on testing every single conspiracy theory as you're suggesting.

 

[Harry]

What evidence do you have for fabrication?

How would you ensure a 'proper, independent investigation'? Evo's latest points are very pertinent here.

I was asking you whether you were comfortable that nothing was fabricated. none of us have evidence. based on you admission that the govt was not cooperative and forthcoming are you comfortable that we know the truth of 911? What's your gut feel dude?

 

[Disco08]

What evidence do you have for fabrication?

How would you ensure a 'proper, independent investigation'? Evo's latest points are very pertinent here.

I'd create a tasforce of Swedish, Norweigian, Dutch, Belgian and Japanese experts in all relevent fields and initially give them $100M, full subpoana power and teams of crack forensic investigators and interrogators from all over the world.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

question works both ways dude. just replace the word impossible with possible. you state it's true because a shonky investigation said so. that's all you've got to rely on, as all I've got is my suspicion and perception of logic. wtc7 collapsing in a neat fasion at free fall, when no other building in history has collapsed like that, does not make sense to me. a commercial plane piercing 6 concrete walls does not make sense to me. a passport found in perfect condition at ground zero does not make sense to me. and many others. And as you are not an expert in any of these fields all you have to counter these questions is the official report findings. again why do the findings make you believe they were possible? oh, that's right you can't comment coz you're not an expert in the fields and you'll only be guessing.

Okay, you want to reason on logic? Fly a passenger liner into a 110 storey building at cruising speed and it falls down. Well blow me over with a bloody feather, what would you expect it to do *smile* stay up? That is the ludicrous option, the LOGICAL thing for it to do is fall down. Then do it again. And when they fall down bringing 2 X 110 storeys of steel and glass and concrete and plant and all that energy with them what kind of damage would you expect to the buildings around it? Enough to bring some them down too is the LOGICAL answer surely.

 

[Disco08]

Let me rephrase that for you. Fly a 767 into the WTC which was designed to withstand such an event and the fires produced by it. What should we expect? All the engineers to be wrong and the design to fail? Where's the logic in that? I guess your post is more convincing though because of the swearing, capitals and clever little uses of jargon.

 

[evo]

To that end most people would agree it should only focus on the evidence available (all of it) and not on testing every single conspiracy theory as you're suggesting.

the holographic 2nd plane is obviously a fringe theory. But other contentions such as: WTC 1 ,2 & 7 were bought down by pre-set demolitions, the pentagon wrecked by something other than an American Airlines passenger planes; flight 93 bought down by something other than passengers fighting for control of the plane from terrorists; planted documents; Silverstein being in on it; Bush and Cheney being in on it; defence force being in it ( at least at some level). These are all part of the mainstream truthers "suspicions", to put it kindly, right?

What will they be investigating if not the above?

 

[Harry]

Okay, you want to reason on logic? Fly a passenger liner into a 110 storey building at cruising speed and it falls down. Well blow me over with a bloody feather, what would you expect it to do *smile*ing stay up? That is the ludicrous option, the LOGICAL thing for it to do is fall down. Then do it again. And when they fall down bringing 2 X 110 storeys of steel and glass and concrete and plant and all that energy with them what kind of damage would you expect to the buildings around it? Enough to bring some them down too is the LOGICAL answer surely.

you an engineer ?

My logic says it would burn and burn and fall apart gradually with the top section collapsing onto the bottom section and gradually mangling until the fires were put out. but, like you, I'm no expert. We have differing logic and opinion.

Now the only thing you have to back up your logic is the OR which was compromised. I have sceptical engineers and architects who have nothing to gain.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Let me rephrase that for you. Fly a 767 into the WTC which was designed to withstand such an event and the fires produced by it. What should we expect? All the engineers to be wrong and the design to fail? Where's the logic in that? I guess your post is more convincing though because of the swearing, capitals and clever little uses of jargon.

Right so in 1960-some-odd, which super computer did the designers use to model the effects of flying a future aircraft into the WTC?