911 Truth Movement

[Harry]

I presume TM refers to these dissenting scholars. If it does, I have little doubt they believe what they are saying. So? They're still a tiny minority of scientists/ engineers.

unless you can show that the rest have an opposing view then you can't claim that they are the minority. these are the ones that have signed up. for all we know many others could well have the same view. still a significant number of professionals who have nothing to gain from it, and perhaps more to lose.

Did you notice that link I posted in regard to the almost 32000 engineers/scientists who signed the anti -AGW petition?

32000 experts against the idea sounds really impressive, right? Until you consider

again, do the rest have the opposing view or just haven't signed?

 

[Disco08]

Who are these people you speak of ? I haven't seen anyone take that stance in this debate.

So you don't support the OR?

You, Tim and KR have never so much as acknowledged that a curious fact or coincidence might have greater meaning. You've also routinely tried to discredit eyewitness testimony or expert opinion which contradicts the OR rather than take it at face value. I've taken that to mean you must accept it, at least for the most part.

I presume TM refers to these dissenting scholars. If it does, I have little doubt they believe what they are saying. So? They're still a tiny minority of scientists/ engineers.

Did you notice that link I posted in regard to the almost 32000 engineers/scientists who signed the anti -AGW petition?

32000 experts against the idea sounds really impressive, right? Until you consider

In the particular case of architects and engineers for 9/11 it's about 2%. I actually think that's a good rate given it's not a survey but a petition that needs seeking out.

 

[tigertim]

So you don't support the OR?

You, Tim and KR have never so much as acknowledged that a curious fact or coincidence might have greater meaning. You've also routinely tried to discredit eyewitness testimony or expert opinion which contradicts the OR rather than take it at face value. I've taken that to mean you must accept it, at least for the most part.

In the particular case of architects and engineers for 9/11 it's about 2%. I actually think that's a good rate given it's not a survey but a petition that needs seeking out.

and you routinely ignore the mass of eyewitnesses which contradicts you opinion! Bit rich there old boy.

 

[evo]

Where did you get the 2% number from, Duckman?

Even conceding 2% believe there is shenanghins afoot, big deal. I bet I could design a petition that said the Roswell aliens were real and get at least double that. FFS this is Americans we are talking about

Nearly HALF of Americans believe in creationism (and more people think Obama is a Muslim than accept the theory of evolution)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154923/Half-Americans-believe-creationism-just-15-percent-accept-evolution.html

I don't understand why you find such a tiny number persuasive.

 

[Baloo]

So you don't support the OR?

You, Tim and KR have never so much as acknowledged that a curious fact or coincidence might have greater meaning. You've also routinely tried to discredit eyewitness testimony or expert opinion which contradicts the OR rather than take it at face value. I've taken that to mean you must accept it, at least for the most part.

I've only bothered to do some research on your more ludicrous "facts". Upside down book, second plane wasn't a passenger plane, black boxes found but hidden, aircraft debris and human remans 8 miles away, WTC was blown up by explosives.

Basically any fact that lends itself to proof that there was a great mastermind who planned and executed 911 from within the US Government that despite requiring multi-agency cooperation, international media outlets and local authorities remains still unproven are the facts I have bothered to research. The premise that this was a US Givernment led and conceived event is just *smile* ridiculous and deserves derision.

So far none of those have proved to have an substance to them. That's not the OR's fault, nor mine.

If the argument was that the US Government has worked to cover up its failings and the failings of the President before, during and after the event, I reckon this thread would be like the Lance Armstrong thread where everyone is in violent agreement. But its not. You and Harry are claiming something totally different and as believable as ID.

 

[Harry]

6 out of 10 involved in the commission had complaints about how the commission was conducted! No whistleblower s with any proof that the bush admin was responsible for 911.

so this doesn't raise any eyebrow?

Standard theorist half arsed attempts at "proof".

similar to the attempts in the OR

Where are the REAL whistleblower s Harry? No-one "involved" has come forward after 11 years and said "yeah, Bush and Cheney were responsible. Here's the emails,. We had several meetings and Bush said "screw em all, lets kill as many innocent civilians as we can".

OK let's assume for one second that this crazy, far fetched fantasy land of shadow governments, corrupt governments and world domination agendas exist, then how do you expect these whistleblowers to come forward? An interview with Oprah perhaps?

no-one knows if this is the case, but just putting it out there.

As I've mentioned earlier, not many people need to be "involved" and know the full story (remember it only took 19 Arabs). The head puppets in official positions would be in the know and all operations would be disguised as some other operation, procedure, protocol, whatever (for example NORAD war games & terror drills). People below becoming suspicious would be dealt with one way or another, instructed to toe the party line, not question authority, sacked, thrown aside and labelled crackpots. easy managing these guys.

 

[evo]

You and Harry are claiming something totally different and as believable as ID.

We should petition Richard Guage's 1750 signatory Engineers and ask them how many think iD is true. I bet London to a brick it will be more than 2% ;D

 

[Harry]

ok, I'll ask again. how does a plane penetrate through 6 concrete walls at the pentagon and create a neat circle exit hole?

 

[evo]

ok, I'll ask again. how does a plane penetrate through 6 concrete walls at the pentagon and create a neat circle exit hole?

how the *smile* would we know. As far as i can tell there are no experts in the relevant fieid reading this thread.

More pertinent is how do YOU know it is impossible?

 

[evo]

you guys are big on eyewitnesses. Here's a sample from a couple of dozen



"On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001

"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."
- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Northern Virginia resident John O'Keefe was one of the commuters who witnessed the attack on the Pentagon. 'I was going up 395, up Washington Blvd., listening to the the news, to WTOP, and from my left side-I don't know whether I saw or heard it first- I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,' said the 25-year-old O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication about lobbying. 'It came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, "That's not going to make it to National Airport." And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black, thick smoke.'"
- "Terrorist 'Situation'." American Lawyer Media, 11 Sep 2001


etc

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77w.htm

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/witnesses.html#trends


at least 45 The amount of eye witnesses who reported seeing a plane and described it with words like: 'airliner', 'big', 'silver', 'roaring', etc.
at least 23 The amount of eye witnesses who specifically said they saw an American Airlines jet. In all cases a large jet.
at least 22 The amount of witnesses who reported the noise of the plane was very loud to deafening.
at least 17 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw a plane running down light poles when crossing the highways.
at least 12 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw and heard the plane increase its throttle at the last seconds.

 

[Harry]

how the *smile* would we know. As far as i can tell there are no experts in the relevant fieid reading this thread.

More pertinent is how do YOU know it is impossible?

I would hazard a guess that it would be impossible. and that's the thing - we are being told to believe too many things that logic tells you could not and should not happen like 3 steel framed buildings collapsing from fire when no other steel framed building has collapsed ever, 2 planes disintegrating into nothing, a plane causing a piercing hole you'd expect from a bunker buster missile, 86 cameras at the pentagon not being able to capture one vision of the plane, most heavily guarded airspace in the world not intercepting 4 hijacked planes, the biggest terrorist act perpetrated by 19 middle class arabs and on and on. did the parallel universe open up on 911 and the impossible became possible for one day?

we can stand here all week, throwing up arguments, standing at the urinal arguing who's is bigger, but the facts remain that there are alot of unanswered questions and alot of evidence to warrant a proper independent investigation, not some circus act of which 6 of the 10 people involved with the OR said it was a farce.

 

[tigertim]

so this doesn't raise any eyebrow?

similar to the attempts in the OR

OK let's assume for one second that this crazy, far fetched fantasy land of shadow governments, corrupt governments and world domination agendas exist, then how do you expect these whistleblowers to come forward? An interview with Oprah perhaps?

no-one knows if this is the case, but just putting it out there.

As I've mentioned earlier, not many people need to be "involved" and know the full story (remember it only took 19 Arabs). The head puppets in official positions would be in the know and all operations would be disguised as some other operation, procedure, protocol, whatever (for example NORAD war games & terror drills). People below becoming suspicious would be dealt with one way or another, instructed to toe the party line, not question authority, sacked, thrown aside and labelled crackpots. easy managing these guys.

Yeah, there may be some issues with how it was conducted. That's no proof of any conspiracy.

An Oprah interview? Well that's a good start. Are you saying there's no official avenues for 911 whistleblowers so they just keep quiet?

So "people's below" will be sacked, labeled crackpots, thrown aside? Where are they? And don't say that "whistleblower" weblink because they have no serious claims just more tenuous stories.

 

[tigertim]

ok, I'll ask again. how does a plane penetrate through 6 concrete walls at the pentagon and create a neat circle exit hole?

Well what research have you done to answer this?

Maybe ask Disco, he now believes a plane crashed here whereas 3 days ago he didn't,.

 

[tigertim]

you guys are big on eyewitnesses. Here's a sample from a couple of dozen



"On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001

"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."
- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Northern Virginia resident John O'Keefe was one of the commuters who witnessed the attack on the Pentagon. 'I was going up 395, up Washington Blvd., listening to the the news, to WTOP, and from my left side-I don't know whether I saw or heard it first- I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,' said the 25-year-old O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication about lobbying. 'It came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, "That's not going to make it to National Airport." And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black, thick smoke.'"
- "Terrorist 'Situation'." American Lawyer Media, 11 Sep 2001


etc

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77w.htm

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/witnesses.html#trends


at least 45 The amount of eye witnesses who reported seeing a plane and described it with words like: 'airliner', 'big', 'silver', 'roaring', etc.
at least 23 The amount of eye witnesses who specifically said they saw an American Airlines jet. In all cases a large jet.
at least 22 The amount of witnesses who reported the noise of the plane was very loud to deafening.
at least 17 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw a plane running down light poles when crossing the highways.
at least 12 The amount of eye witnesses who stated they saw and heard the plane increase its throttle at the last seconds.

There's tens of thousands of eyewitnesses there Evo but the theorist don't look for them, they look for the "crackpot" who says "I didn't see a plane".

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

I would hazard a guess that it would be impossible.

Say no more. I'll take the experts' opinion on this one.

Whoever raised the Christianity thread similarities was spot on. The discussion on evolution on that thread had similar tones. Arguments from incredulity abound (even when the actual evidence is freely available).

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

There's tens of thousands of eyewitnesses there Evo but the theorist don't look for them, they look for the "crackpot" who says "I didn't see a plane".

Confirmation bias in the extreme.

 

[Rosy]

ok, I'll ask again. how does a plane penetrate through 6 concrete walls at the pentagon and create a neat circle exit hole?

The Pentagon
At 9:37 am on 9/11, 51 minutes after the first plane hit the World Trade Center, the Pentagon was similarly attacked. Though dozens of witnesses saw a Boeing 757 hit the building, conspiracy advocates insist there is evidence that a missile or a different type of plane smashed into the Pentagon.

Big Plane, Small Holes

Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a Web site "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

The truth is of even less importance to French author Thierry Meyssan, whose baseless assertions are fodder for even mainstream European and Middle Eastern media. In his book The Big Lie, Meyssan concludes that the Pentagon was struck by a satellite-guided missile—part of an elaborate U.S. military coup. "This attack," he writes, "could only be committed by United States military personnel against other U.S. military personnel."



FACT: When American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon's exterior wall, Ring E, it created a hole approximately 75 ft. wide, according to the ASCE Pentagon Building Performance Report. The exterior facade collapsed about 20 minutes after impact, but ASCE based its measurements of the original hole on the number of first-floor support columns that were destroyed or damaged. Computer simulations confirmed the findings.

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen."

The tidy hole in Ring C was 12 ft. wide—not 16 ft. ASCE concludes it was made by the jet's landing gear, not by the fuselage.


Read more: 9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - Pentagon - Popular Mechanics

 

[Freezer]

Conspiracy theory way too left field but no doubt there are some strange happenings/questions to be answered.

Definitely some cloak and dagger from the US powers that be. All in the name of national security.

 

[tigertim]

http://www.corbettreport.com/articles/20100305_911_whistleblowers.htm

all nutters anyway so don't bother reading. just google some more conspiracy theories you can list, we're all enjoying the various theories out there.

glad you're enjoying them Haryy. Yes there are a lot of paranoid conspiracy theorists out there aren't there. It's quite amazing just how much governments are invested in cover ups.

 

[Harry]

So "people's below" will be sacked, labeled crackpots, thrown aside? Where are they? And don't say that "whistleblower" weblink because they have no serious claims just more tenuous stories.

of course they don't