911 Truth Movement

[evo]

And the strawman question?

The strawman is whast we are dealing with right now. You are accusing anyone who doesn't side with you as being pro -Cheney. That sir is a strawman argument.

straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. source: wiki

Cheney was with Haliburton. That's it?

Hang on. first things first.

Before we deconstruct Mr Cheney's life. I'd like you to go and find some actual quotes where I defended him. That's what you are accusing me of.

While you're searching for them you may as well dig up ones for tim,antman,snakey baloo etc. We are all his cheerleaders after all. The thread must be riddled with these quotes.

The insistance that any conspiracy is just too complex to be plausible (and the subsequent dismissal of any evidence towards complicity) is an indirect defense of those who were supposedly simply incompetent.

So in your mind believing Cheney is an incompetent buffoon ( or more specificially in my case hulking bureaucracies are vy their very nature incompetent) and suspecting anti-gravity balls and controlled demolitions of major landmarks is rather ludicrous is defending him is it?

Come on dude - you've gotta be pulling my leg now!

Strawwwwwww....man

 

[tigertim]

And how much have you researched that statement?

That's a logical assertion by the way. Feel free to actually point out how it's twisting anything or in any way desperate.

They are innocent of any complicity to 911 terrorism: fact. If I'm wrong show what they're been convicted of.

Innocent til proven guilty, it even applies to people you don't like.

 

[Disco08]

The strawman is whast we are dealing with right now. You are accusing anyone who doesn't side with you as being pro -Cheney. That sir is a strawman argument.

No I'm not. I'm saying that any suggestion that these guys may have been complicit is met with derision. At least that was apparently the strawman argument you were referring to.

Before we deconstruct Mr Cheney's life. I'd like you to go and find some actual quotes where I defended him. That's what you are accusing me of.

While you're searching for them you may as well dig up ones for tim,antman,snakey baloo etc. We are all his cheerleaders after all. The thread must be riddled with these quotes.

Here's what I said:

That's not really how is see it but it's not that far off either. How much do you know about Cheney's history for instance? Rumsfeld's? These are the people you guys are basically defending with the contant belittling of any assertion that there is evidence for their complicity.

Obviously I'm not saying you are all actively defending them. I'm saying that's a byproduct of the constant belittling of any suggestion that there's evidence that points towards their complicity. Surely you can see the difference.

So in your mind believing Cheney is an incompetent buffoon ( or more specificially in my case hulking bureaucracies are vy their very nature incompetent) and suspecting anti-gravity balls and controlled demolitions of major landmarks is rather ludicrous is defending him is it?

Come on dude - you've gotta be pulling my leg now!

Strawwwwwww....man

Taunting? Really?

And again no - Along with the above I'm saying dismissing evidence because the supposedly implied conspiracy is too complex is letting those with actions to answer for off the hook.

They are innocent of any complicity to 911 terrorism: fact. If I'm wrong show what they're been convicted of.

Innocent til proven guilty, it even applies to people you don't like.

They're innocent in the eyes of the US DoJ but that doesn't mean they're factually innocent. For a start there's never been a proper investigation into their actions even though many of them contributed to the outcome of 9/11.

So your research extends to the fact that they've never been charged with anything and the 9/11 commission clears them of wrong doing?

 

[Disco08]

So here's a look into one of the guys whose testimony prompted the 6 year research effort into the Black Eagle trust and the connections to it.

http://www.sanderhicks.com/vreeland.html

 

[evo]

Here's what I said:

That's not really how is see it but it's not that far off either. How much do you know about Cheney's history for instance? Rumsfeld's? These are the people you guys are basically defending with the contant belittling of any assertion that there is evidence for their complicity.

I don't know why you quoted that post. This is the post I entered the thread suggesting it was a strawman.

The constant mocking of anything that brings the honesty of such upstanding individuals as the Bush's, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice and Wolfinsky is totally bizarre.

It seems you are not going to provide evidence of my support for Cheney .Despite your protestations that's the clear implication as far as I'm concerned. Its worth noting other posters read it similarly.

Anywhoo, Cheney-lover that I am, I'll move on.

So I had a bit of time to kill and decided to watch the vid that has given rise to your latest burst of 9/11 inspired enthusiasm.

Although I didn't see anything about Jonestown etc. so is there another vid I'm missing ( i'd to prefer to watch it presented rather than read a 50 page dossier)?

[youtube=560,315]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_fp5kaVYhk[/youtube]

- the first thing that occurs to me is: that is bloody lot of information to collate, where do these people find the time, resources and energy to gather and arrange all this information? It must['ve taken a team of peoples months( even years?)

the second thing that occurred to me is: most of his efforts have been wasted IMO. If 2 large planes are going to strike the two biggest building in the biggest city in the capitalist centre of the western world then one shouldn't be surprtised that they hit key merchant banks, stockbroking firms, ihnsurance agencies, and offices that house peope with powerful connections. In fact it would be more of a "coincidence" if they didn't strike these type of businesses. The world trade centre complex is after all the epicentre of the business capital of the world (hence the name )

One also shouldn't be surprised that these buildings also house key government agencies such as branches of the CIA, securities commission ect.Where else would they be?

the third thing that occurs to me is that what this troofer is allegeing is a conspiracy so vaste that it includes thousand upon thousands of insiders. Contrary to your claims that a conspiracy could be quite simple and performed with perhaps a handful of well connected people, what this dude is alleging is easily the most expansive I have come across to date.


I've watched a lot of these things over the years, so I'm pretty hard to surprise in regard to these claims. But I literally spat out some of my Amber Ale homebrew when he claimed that a large phalanx of FBI agents were in on this elaborate scheme to blow up building 1,2 +7 and dameage building 6. (apparently all the more experienced{honest] agents had been surreptitiously co-opted into attending some seminar in California or something.)

I think this may be one of most unlikely allegations I've heard to date (even better than anti gravity ball!). To become a FBI agent in first place you have to be so psychologically honest and absolutely commiteed to the good of the country that it would be sickening to your average joe. These guys are patriotic citizens to end all citizenry. Like nuns they pretty much marry the job for life. There commitment to God and country is tested and tested again even before the put one foot into an FBI training centre. And yet we are supposed to believe hundreds of them conspired to kill thousands of their own citizens just to make *smile* Cheney rich. Moreover, that 10 years later not even one of them has had a pang of guilt and come forward to confess.

Extraordinary!

the fourth thing that occurred to me is: still with the thermite? really? sheesh.

the fifth thing that occurred to me: seems his argument is all the planes were remote controlled. So my question is "where are all the bloody missing passengers? Where are are the actual passenger planes that went missing and were replaced by these remote control ones?"

 

[tigertim]

No I'm not. I'm saying that any suggestion that these guys may have been complicit is met with derision. At least that was apparently the strawman argument you were referring to.

Here's what I said:

That's not really how is see it but it's not that far off either. How much do you know about Cheney's history for instance? Rumsfeld's? These are the people you guys are basically defending with the contant belittling of any assertion that there is evidence for their complicity.

Obviously I'm not saying you are all actively defending them. I'm saying that's a byproduct of the constant belittling of any suggestion that there's evidence that points towards their complicity. Surely you can see the difference.

Taunting? Really?

And again no - Along with the above I'm saying dismissing evidence because the supposedly implied conspiracy is too complex is letting those with actions to answer for off the hook.

They're innocent in the eyes of the US DoJ but that doesn't mean they're factually innocent. For a start there's never been a proper investigation into their actions even though many of them contributed to the outcome of 9/11.

So your research extends to the fact that they've never been charged with anything and the 9/11 commission clears them of wrong doing?

Sheesh!, they are innocent. Full stop. With your logic anyone who hasn't been proven guilty is...guilty! Because they haven't been before any investigation/inquiry/ commission.

Disco, I accuse you of theft of money from the cafe you work in. There's $100 missing and you work there and have access to the money and you were seen with money in your hands just prior to it going missing. You were heard mentioning that you needed extra money for outstanding bills.

You are guilty (even though you haven't been before any jury/hearing etc) because you haven't been cleared by the said hearing/jury etc!

 

[Disco08]

So I had a bit of time to kill and decided to watch the vid that has given rise to your latest burst of 9/11 inspired enthusiasm.

Although I didn't see anything about Jonestown etc. so is there another vid I'm missing ( i'd to prefer to watch it presented rather than read a 50 page dossier)?

- the first thing that occurs to me is: that is bloody lot of information to collate, where do these people find the time, resources and energy to gather and arrange all this information? It must['ve taken a team of peoples months( even years?)

the second thing that occurred to me is: most of his efforts have been wasted IMO. If 2 large planes are going to strike the two biggest building in the biggest city in the capitalist centre of the western world then one shouldn't be surprtised that they hit key merchant banks, stockbroking firms, ihnsurance agencies, and offices that house peope with powerful connections. In fact it would be more of a "coincidence" if they didn't strike these type of businesses. The world trade centre complex is after all the epicentre of the business capital of the world (hence the name )

One also shouldn't be surprised that these buildings also house key government agencies such as branches of the CIA, securities commission ect.Where else would they be?

the third thing that occurs to me is that what this troofer is allegeing is a conspiracy so vaste that it includes thousand upon thousands of insiders. Contrary to your claims that a conspiracy could be quite simple and performed with perhaps a handful of well connected people, what this dude is alleging is easily the most expansive I have come across to date.


I've watched a lot of these things over the years, so I'm pretty hard to surprise in regard to these claims. But I literally spat out some of my Amber Ale homebrew when he claimed that a large phalanx of FBI agents were in on this elaborate scheme to blow up building 1,2 +7 and dameage building 6. (apparently all the more experienced{honest] agents had been surreptitiously co-opted into attending some seminar in California or something.)

I think this may be one of most unlikely allegations I've heard to date (even better than anti gravity ball!). To become a FBI agent in first place you have to be so psychologically honest and absolutely commiteed to the good of the country that it would be sickening to your average joe. These guys are patriotic citizens to end all citizenry. Like nuns they pretty much marry the job for life. There commitment to God and country is tested and tested again even before the put one foot into an FBI training centre. And yet we are supposed to believe hundreds of them conspired to kill thousands of their own citizens just to make *smile* Cheney rich. Moreover, that 10 years later not even one of them has had a pang of guilt and come forward to confess.

Extraordinary!

the fourth thing that occurred to me is: still with the thermite? really? sheesh.

the fifth thing that occurred to me: seems his argument is all the planes were remote controlled. So my question is "where are all the bloody missing passengers? Where are are the actual passenger planes that went missing and were replaced by these remote control ones?"

You can try reading the essay and entering "jonestown" into the search function.

1 - 6 years apparently. No idea where they get the time.

2 - Cantor Fitzgerald occupied 4 floors and AA11 impacted directly below them. Eurobrokers occupied one floor and UAL175 impacted directly below it. The ONI occupied one small section of the Pentagon and was impacted directly by AA77 and its amazing feats of aviation.

3 - How vast?

4 - What's the problem with the thermite hypothesis? There's plenty of evidence to support it.

5 - The passengers could have still been in the planes.

 

[poppa x]

Cantor Fitzgerald occupied 4 floors and AA11 impacted directly below them. Eurobrokers occupied one floor and UAL175 impacted directly below it. The ONI occupied one small section of the Pentagon and was impacted directly by AA77 and its amazing feats of aviation

I've said before but will say it again.
It's not an amazing piece of aviation.
Each WTC tower was wider than a standard airport runway.
Hitting it is a piece of cake, even for an amateur.
I've flown planes, so I also know it's harder to land on the start of the runway than to fly straight and fast into a very wide building.
This makes the Pentagon pilot more skilled than the WTC pilots. But even what he did was no more difficult than landing a plane on a runway. You just "pretend" the Pentagon is the piano keys of the runway and aim for it.
No amazing feat of aviation involved.


Strike one for the defense your honour.

 

[evo]

You can try reading the essay and entering "jonestown" into the search function.

1 - 6 years apparently. No idea where they get the time.

In a way I admire their commitment and thorougness. They'd probably make great FBI agents themselves.

2 - Cantor Fitzgerald occupied 4 floors and AA11 impacted directly below them. Eurobrokers occupied one floor and UAL175 impacted directly below it.

Yeah, but so what? What is the significance of where they hit the building? According to this guys worldview "they" had already wired the buildong for collapse via thermite. Remember? Eurobrokers are going down, no matter if the plane hits floor 75, 200 oer 50


I was particularly impressed the way "they" made bits fall off building WTC 2 and land strategically on WTC7 to weaken that structure as well.

No one could ever suggest "they" do thing by half measures.

3 - How vast?

Well he was speaking pretty quickly so I didn't get a chance to jot down all the companies and 'players' mentioned, but it was 100s and 100s of company connections each with their own hierarchy of people in on it on a need-to-know basis. Not to mention all the government officials that he was implicating as well. And of course my hommies Wolfy, Rummy, Rice, W, Cheyney, and all their flunkies.

How vast - you ask. I don't know if you've ever worked in one of these large organisations that is having the finger pointed at it - its been a while for me too- but it is nigh on impossible to get anything done without involving heaps of people. I remember working in the marketing dept at Boral and it used to take 8 people, 15 memos and 3 weeks just to get a new HB pencil! ;D

To pull off the most complex conspiracy in the history of mankind involving the numbers this dude is talking about I imagine would have to take in the 10s of thousands. Yes, some of them could be unwitting paricipants, but we are certainly not talking 1 little old guy behind a curtain like in the Wizard of OZ.

And all this to cover up some dubious stockmarket anomalies and to enrich Haliburton stockholders. Cum arrrrhhhn.

4 - What's the problem with the thermite hypothesis?

Theres the small problem of the other 10000 odd workers in the 3 buildings not noticing it being installed.

There's plenty of evidence to support it.

We obviously have different concepts of what constitutes plenty of evidence. To me "plenty of evidence" would be something like a company specialising in thermite demolitions coming forward and saying "yes, we wired the 3 buildings for thermite. Look here is a documentary footage of us demolisihing a simillar size building last fall. See we put charges, here here and here."

To my way of thinking" PLenty of evidence" is not a couple of nerds in their back yard doing little thermite experiments on their bbq and and putting a video on youtube. "Plenty of evidence" is not triumphantly holding up a lunch bag full of building dust that allegedly has some micro-spheres in it.

5 - The passengers could have still been in the planes.

I see. So we have 3 pilotless planes flying around the Manhatten area on the morning in question, full of passengers who got on said planes with no pilots.

What about the Shanksville passengers that fought with the 'pilot' and caused it to crash. Sorry, my bad. That was all faked.

So on this account, said planes are a flown so skillfully that they hit buildings exactly where they wanted. We are talking about acumen a number of experienced pilots have called into question wether such manouvers are even possible for the average pilots (particularly in the case of the Pentagon). But apparently this skill is no problem via remote control from other planes ( not in any of the footage). I'd love to watch these remote controllers play Call of Duty. We are talking Platinum-on-the-first-runthrough skillz right there.

Sounds legit.

 

[evo]

No amazing feat of aviation involved.

Pretty impressive by remote control though you gotta admit.

 

[tigertim]

In a way I admire their commitment and thorougness. They'd probably make great FBI agents themselves.
Yeah, but so what? What is the significance of where they hit the building? According to this guys worldview "they" had already wired the buildong for collapse via thermite. Remember? Eurobrokers are going down, no matter if the plane hits floor 75, 200 oer 50


I was particularly impressed the way "they" made bits fall off building WTC 2 and land strategically on WTC7 to weaken that structure as well.

No one could ever suggest "they" do thing by half measures.Well he was speaking pretty quickly so I didn't get a chance to jot down all the companies and 'players' mentioned, but it was 100s and 100s of company connections each with their own hierarchy of people in on it on a need-to-know basis. Not to mention all the government officials that he was implicating as well. And of course my hommies Wolfy, Rummy, Rice, W, Cheyney, and all their flunkies.

How vast - you ask. I don't know if you've ever worked in one of these large organisations that is having the finger pointed at it - its been a while for me too- but it is nigh on impossible to get anything done without involving heaps of people. I remember working in the marketing dept at Boral and it used to take 8 people, 15 memos and 3 weeks just to get a new HB pencil! ;D

To pull off the most complex conspiracy in the history of mankind involving the numbers this dude is talking about I imagine would have to take in the 10s of thousands. Yes, some of them could be unwitting paricipants, but we are certainly not talking 1 little old guy behind a curtain like in the Wizard of OZ.

And all this to cover up some dubious stockmarket anomalies and to enrich Haliburton stockholders. Cum arrrrhhhn.
Theres the small problem of the other 10000 odd workers in the 3 buildings not noticing it being installed.I see. So we have 3 pilotless planes flying around the Manhatten area on the morning in question, full of passengers who got on said planes with no pilots.

What about the Shanksville passengers that fought with the 'pilot' and caused it to crash. Sorry, my bad. That was all faked.

So on this account, said planes are a flown so skillfully that they hit buildings exactly where they wanted. We are talking about acumen a number of experienced pilots have called into question wether such manouvers are even possible for the average pilots (particularly in the case of the Pentagon). But apparently this skill is no problem via remote control from other planes ( not in any of the footage). I'd love to watch these remote controllers play Call of Duty. We are talking Platinum-on-the-first-runthrough skillz right there.

Sounds legit.

Pilot-less planes, cargo planes, gravity balls, airforce planes, terrorist who have been complicit with the FBI flown planes! Take your pick but trust me, it's all a conspiracy!

 

[evo]

Pilot-less planes, cargo planes, gravity balls, airforce planes, terrorist who have been complicit with the FBI flown planes! Take your pick but trust me, it's all a conspiracy!

ahem, excuse me tim, you forgot my favourite plane of all: hologram plane.

 

[Baloo]

Neal Stephenson's books are more believable than some of the conspiracy theories floating around the 911 world.

I'm surprised the Pope John Paul I conspiracy theory hasn't made an appearance on this thread yet.

 

[tigertim]

ahem, excuse me tim, you forgot my favourite plane of all: hologram plane.

My apologies Evo. You'd think the theorists would get together and sort their stories out so that they at least purport to have a solid claim.

 

[Disco08]

I've said before but will say it again.
It's not an amazing piece of aviation.
Each WTC tower was wider than a standard airport runway.
Hitting it is a piece of cake, even for an amateur.
I've flown planes, so I also know it's harder to land on the start of the runway than to fly straight and fast into a very wide building.
This makes the Pentagon pilot more skilled than the WTC pilots. But even what he did was no more difficult than landing a plane on a runway. You just "pretend" the Pentagon is the piano keys of the runway and aim for it.
No amazing feat of aviation involved.


Strike one for the defense your honour.

Yeah I'm gonna listen to you and ignore all the experts that disagree with you.

Pretty impressive by remote control though you gotta admit.

Because novice pilots who have never flown a large passenger jet before are more skilled than computers?

 

[tigertim]

Yeah I'm gonna listen to you and ignore all the experts that disagree with you.

Because novice pilots who have never flown a large passenger jet before are more skilled than computers?

And similarly we,re going to listen to talk of pilot less planes and ignore the FACTS!

 

[AngryAnt]

I love the inanity of an argument that makes a really big deal of which floor and which specific offices the planes hit even though both buildings were totally destroyed in any case.

 

[evo]

Because novice pilots who have never flown a large passenger jet before are more skilled than computers?

Yeah, but what does 'computers' even mean in this context. Where are these computers, who was operating them? Were 'computers' flying the planes when they took off full of passengers fro9m their respective airports in this scenario. Why didn't anyone notice there were no pilots getting into the cockpits before take off at the various terminals. I can't sneak a sly ciggy in an airoplanne toilet without a dozen peoplen noticing - how do 4 planes take off without pilots and no-one's the wiser?

Where were the support planes that one ussually sees in the military when 'computers' are in comtrol? etc.

For me to jump aboard this flight of fancey I need a more plausible scenario than: computers.

 

[Disco08]

Yeah, but so what? What is the significance of where they hit the building? According to this guys worldview "they" had already wired the buildong for collapse via thermite. Remember? Eurobrokers are going down, no matter if the plane hits floor 75, 200 oer 50

Plenty of people escaped that weren't situated directly at or just above the impact zones. Those areas were basically vaporised by the jet fuel explosions. Again it's a fairly curious coincidence that both planes just happened to impact exactly where they would cause the most devastation to the firms most associated with the transactions required to clear the BEFT bonds surreptitiously. Then there's the widely witnessed explosions on the floors around the 3rd biggest security brokers. Further still there's AA77 flying its miraculous manouvres to slam directy into the offices of the intelligence personnel investigating the BEFT.

I was particularly impressed the way "they" made bits fall off building WTC 2 and land strategically on WTC7 to weaken that structure as well.

That's the same WTC7 that looks just like and displays all the characteristics of a controlled demolition according to thousands of experts? The same one that multiple eyewitnesses attest to explosions within before either tower collapsed?

Well he was speaking pretty quickly so I didn't get a chance to jot down all the companies and 'players' mentioned, but it was 100s and 100s of company connections each with their own hierarchy of people in on it on a need-to-know basis. Not to mention all the government officials that he was implicating as well. And of course my hommies Wolfy, Rummy, Rice, W, Cheyney, and all their flunkies.

How vast - you ask. I don't know if you've ever worked in one of these large organisations that is having the finger pointed at it - its been a while for me too- but it is nigh on impossible to get anything done without involving heaps of people. I remember working in the marketing dept at Boral and it used to take 8 people, 15 memos and 3 weeks just to get a new HB pencil! ;D

To pull off the most complex conspiracy in the history of mankind involving the numbers this dude is talking about I imagine would have to take in the 10s of thousands. Yes, some of them could be unwitting paricipants, but we are certainly not talking 1 little old guy behind a curtain like in the Wizard of OZ.

And all this to cover up some dubious stockmarket anomalies and to enrich Haliburton stockholders. Cum arrrrhhhn.

That's the point. At the highest level there's the specific planning but beyond that there's simply manipulation to achieve the desired results. The 10's of thousands are people acting unwittingly as far as I can see.

Theres the small problem of the other 10000 odd workers in the 3 buildings not noticing it being installed.

The deisgner of the towers insists it would have been possible. All the core colums were situated away from the office space and were able to be accessed internally. Not to mention the security company in charge of the towers is owned by Maurice Greenberg. Then there's the fact that WTC2 had a 36 hour power down which rendered all security systems inoperable on September 8 and 9. Add to that the supposed eyewitness testimony of anamalous activity at the twin towers in the early hours of August 23 to September 3 and there's enough to warrant at least a closer look to try and verify these facts. Should they all prove correct they must surely be fairly compelling evidence of something fishy going on?

We obviously have different concepts of what constitutes plenty of evidence. To me "plenty of evidence" would be something like a company specialising in thermite demolitions coming forward and saying "yes, we wired the 3 buildings for thermite. Look here is a documentary footage of us demolisihing a simillar size building last fall. See we put charges, here here and here."

To my way of thinking" PLenty of evidence" is not a couple of nerds in their back yard doing little thermite experiments on their bbq and and putting a video on youtube. "Plenty of evidence" is not triumphantly holding up a lunch bag full of building dust that allegedly has some micro-spheres in it.

Really? Physical evidence of particles that exactly resemble unignited nano-thermite and partices that can only occur after thermitic ignition aren't compelling?

What about the pools of molten metal found in the rubble of all 3 buildings weeks after they collapsed?

This page has more and is supported by highly credentialled high rise engineers and controlled demolition experts:

http://www.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/574-faq-7.html

So we have 3 pilotless planes flying around the Manhatten area on the morning in question, full of passengers who got on said planes with no pilots.

What about the Shanksville passengers that fought with the 'pilot' and caused it to crash. Sorry, my bad. That was all faked.

So on this account, said planes are a flown so skillfully that they hit buildings exactly where they wanted. We are talking about acumen a number of experienced pilots have called into question wether such manouvers are even possible for the average pilots (particularly in the case of the Pentagon). But apparently this skill is no problem via remote control from other planes ( not in any of the footage). I'd love to watch these remote controllers play Call of Duty. We are talking Platinum-on-the-first-runthrough skillz right there.

Sounds legit.

There's evidence to suggest UAL93 was show down. Rumsfeld's little slip included.

[youtube=560,315]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucGCs0hl9S8[/youtube]

Surely you can see how remotely controlling the planes using their own flight control computers would make more sense of the flight paths than 3 absolute novices with zero experience flying these highly sophisticated aircraft.

The scenario is basically the same except for the pilots. The hijackers still hijack the planes.

http://911review.com/means/remotecontrol.html

 

[tigersnake]

Again it's a fairly curious coincidence that both planes just happened to impact exactly where they would cause the most devastation to the firms most associated with the transactions required to clear the BEFT bonds surreptitiously.

been away from this thread for a while, but this sentence, both style and substance, is a doozy. Sentence of the thread for me. Its a little painful to think of where to start to refute it, and also the pointlessness of attempting that.