What an absolute disgrace

[hutstar]

THAT is the fallacy, Hutstar!
We are not talking about a shortage of SKILLED workers where it is a role within an industry where Australia has a shortage.

We are talking about UNSKILLED jobs here than anyone physically capable can be doing it and as far as I'm concerned, if we have unskilled jobs on offer and unemployed Aussies out there, then there is no need to import UNSKILLED migrants to do those jobs.

And if we have Islanders willing to travel from the middle of the Pacific (at the Government's expense) to work then I can't see why Australians can't travel (at the Government's expense) from the middle of nowhere to work if they are fair dinkum in trying to find a job.

Sh!t, if its taken them over 6 months and they still can't find a job and they really want to work....then surely they would be more than happy for the Government to provide them one with travel and accommodation expenses paid for as well as getting paid to do the job too?
Only someone who doesn't want to work would sneeze at that.

Look, i think we all get the point that yes, there are people who take advantage of the social security network and yes, your plan would indeed make those blighters pay for their crimes. But what about those families who are not taking the proverbial? If i, for whatever reason, was not able to find work in my home town, should i automatically be willing to leave my friends and family to do some temporary unskilled work while at the same time removing any chance of finding longer term employment in my home town?
I just don't think it is such a big issue and as i said, the first thing i would suggest is limiting temporary work Visa for UK citizens to come over here and take unskilled and semi-skilled jobs, purely for drinking money. At least by removing this group you leave the jobs for those people with some prospect of turning temporary jobs into full-time ones. Myself - I just don't think it is a big deal either way.
In regard to the original post- that being that Hospitals are critically underfunded and understaffed - it is up to the whole of society to prioritise this issue- governments act in a manner that satisfied constituents and simply put- Hospitals are rubbish and nursing salaries pathetic, because we don't demand it improves, even if it means higher taxes.
Lift nursing wages by 50% and suddenly people might be inspired into that career path.

 

[Tiger74]

Where have I forced anyone to move again???

If you cannot find a job, and you need the dole to feed your family, you think you have a choice when Csar Liverpool the Third comes in and says "get your butt out of Port Adelaide, leave your family behind because you are going to pick fruit for 6 months in Mackay"?

 

[Liverpool]

But what about those families who are not taking the proverbial? If i, for whatever reason, was not able to find work in my home town, should i automatically be willing to leave my friends and family to do some temporary unskilled work while at the same time removing any chance of finding longer term employment in my home town?

When you say "not able to find work"...are you meaning just work in the area of your expertise? or ANY kind of work?

The way I look at it.....if you are just continually searching for a job in your line of expertise and are still on unemployment benefits after a period of time, then maybe you should start looking for work outside of that industry?
You may be genuinely searching but I think there has to be some realistic end to the situation as well.

The bloke I know who has been on the dole for 10 years...he's a "lion-tamer"...of course, there is an abundance of positions around the traps for a lion-tamer :...does that mean he isn't genuinely searching for a job in this industry?
Of course not, I am sure he is down at Centrelink every day checking the job-board for a vacancy in lion-taming....but should the taxpayer then pay for his eternal search for a career in this field no matter how long it takes?
I don't think so. He is physically capable of picking fruit and after a more than lengthy stay on welfare then it is time he put something back into the system.

Finally...if you are searching for ANY kind of work in your town and still can't find something....then yes, I think you should move and leave your family behind to go and pick fruit.
If you care about making a living to support your family then you would do it....and if the Islanders are prepared to travel to another country to do this work because they are keen to help themselves and their families back home....then you would be prepared to do similar if you were as keen to help your family.

the first thing i would suggest is limiting temporary work Visa for UK citizens to come over here and take unskilled and semi-skilled jobs, purely for drinking money. At least by removing this group you leave the jobs for those people with some prospect of turning temporary jobs into full-time ones. Myself - I just don't think it is a big deal either way.

We have a deal with the UK (and other countries) because while we accept their backpackers to do temp work here, they also accept our backpackers to do their temp work.
Go to London or Edinburgh and see how many bar staff at pubs are Aussies...

 

[Liverpool]

If you cannot find a job, and you need the dole to feed your family, you think you have a choice when Csar Liverpool the Third comes in and says "get your butt out of Port Adelaide, leave your family behind because you are going to pick fruit for 6 months in Mackay"?

Well, if there isn't ANY work in Port Adelaide and you care about your family...then you should be keen to move for 6 months to support them.
The Islanders seem prepared to move to do exactly this....so whats wrong with the bludger in Port Adelaide moving to Mackay?

Stop making excuses for the long-term unemployed Tiger74.

 

[Michael]

Michael,
It's not "forcing" people....it's called "persuading" them ...for example:

After 6 months of receiving unemployment benefits the Government will pay for you to be relocated to an area where labour is required. Once relocated you will be paid for the work you do. Refusal to be relocated is an option which you are free to make but welfare benefits will cease if this option is chosen.

The Chairman recently used a similar tactic with truant school-kids.....either the kids go to school or the parent's welfare get stopped...so why can't a similar idea be used for long-term unemployed Australians instead of importing people?

Problem

So say we "relocate" to a fruit picking region.
What happens when the season is over? We "relocate" to the next region?

I think relocating to country towns is a good idea, however there needs to be sustained work

 

[Tiger74]

Well, if there isn't ANY work in Port Adelaide and you care about your family...then you should be keen to move for 6 months to support them.
The Islanders seem prepared to move to do exactly this....so whats wrong with the bludger in Port Adelaide moving to Mackay?

Stop making excuses for the long-term unemployed Tiger74.

Not making excuses, I just know what its like looking for work. I spent over 6 months looking for a new gig when I was made redundant (job moved off-shore). I was going through ads daily, interviewing weekly, but due to a few takeovers at the time, most the roles I was applying for had stiff competition.

I was not sponging off the taxpayer, but I know its harder to get a job than just twinkling your nose.

If you are fortunate, and have skills in demand Liverpool, you are indeed lucky. I just hope that if you ever have any misfortune in your life that people kinder than you still agree to help you out, and not tell you to bugger off.

 

[Liverpool]

Problem
So say we "relocate" to a fruit picking region.
What happens when the season is over? We "relocate" to the next region?
I think relocating to country towns is a good idea, however there needs to be sustained work

What are we doing with the Islanders once the season is over?
Aren't we supposd to be sending them back to where they came from...?

Well, the same can be applied with the unemployed Aussies...the difference is, some of these Aussies may stay on as full-time workers or take their skills and gain work on a different type of farm closer to where they originally came from.
At least there is a chance that we may get some Aussies off welfare or give them some skills in that type of industry.

I think that is better than just flying in temp workers from overseas....earn money, take it all back home....and then go back home themselves.

The Aussies who do the work and leave without becoming full-time or show any interest in that industry can continue back on their welfare.......but at least we got them off welfare for a period and got the fruit we needed picked at the same time too.

 

[Liverpool]

Not making excuses, I just know what its like looking for work. I spent over 6 months looking for a new gig when I was made redundant (job moved off-shore). I was going through ads daily, interviewing weekly, but due to a few takeovers at the time, most the roles I was applying for had stiff competition.
I was not sponging off the taxpayer, but I know its harder to get a job than just twinkling your nose.
If you are fortunate, and have skills in demand Liverpool, you are indeed lucky. I just hope that if you ever have any misfortune in your life that people kinder than you still agree to help you out, and not tell you to bugger off.

Like I said mate.....I'll even be a little flexible for you and lets make unemployment benefits last 12 months....surely 12 months is enough time for someone to find a job?
And once 12 months is up....then its time for the Government to say to these people still on welfare....either stay where you are and don't get welfare or we'll move you to pick some fruit elsewhere and then you will get another 12 months 'grace'....meaning they will get welfare until they get a job and if in another 12 months they are still on welfare, then off they go to the farms again.

At least we are getting our fruit picked each year...by Aussies....and saving months worth of welfare each year as well....and the money stays in Australia.

 

[Tiger74]

Like I said mate.....I'll even be a little flexible for you and lets make unemployment benefits last 12 months....surely 12 months is enough time for someone to find a job?
And once 12 months is up....then its time for the Government to say to these people still on welfare....either stay where you are and don't get welfare or we'll move you to pick some fruit elsewhere and then you will get another 12 months 'grace'....meaning they will get welfare until they get a job and if in another 12 months they are still on welfare, then off they go to the farms again.

At least we are getting our fruit picked each year...by Aussies....and saving months worth of welfare each year as well....and the money stays in Australia.

In addition to your policy of forcing people to relocate under duress, you have overlooked two minor details.

1) if you refuse work and/or don't look for work, you don't get the dole. Your 12 month thing is already happening, and a much shorter leash. The majority of people who are long term unemployed people now are long term for issues beyond the old cliche of wanting to surf all day. There will always be people who exploit the system, but compared to 20 years ago, this is a much smaller proportion now (to my understanding - due to tighter enforcement and greater dole/ave wage disparity).

2) cost of forced locations ain't cheap. And then you have the cost of accomodation subsidization. And then you have the cost of bringing a lot of these places up to code (I'm not sure if you have seen the accomadation at some pickers - I did in one of my former gigs - some are a joke).


One side issue that will be interesting in all of this will be wages. The NT proposal may not even go ahead, because the unions are insisting any foreign workers must receive equivalent minimum wages to an Australian citizen. Growers have been strangley quiet on this, which is not suprising. Growers have been a key area of employment for illegal workers, and this is because the pressure on their margins means under priced labour is all they can afford. Bring in short term foreign labour, it will be closely scrutinized and monitored (because of the Liverpools out there convinced they are part of a communist/Muslim illegal invasion), and to ensure they are not under-cutting local labour. If they accept, this will make their fruit less competitive against the demands of Coles and Woolies, making imports even more attractive.

Your policy will have the same effect, but even more so. The short term worker option targets labour short falls, be they skilled or unskilled. Skilled labour shortages often tend to be due to lack of trained people, so they still command decent wages. Your scheme is almost completely focused on the unskilled market, where wages are at an absolute minimum.

 

[Liverpool]

1) if you refuse work and/or don't look for work, you don't get the dole. Your 12 month thing is already happening, and a much shorter leash. The majority of people who are long term unemployed people now are long term for issues beyond the old cliche of wanting to surf all day. There will always be people who exploit the system, but compared to 20 years ago, this is a much smaller proportion now (to my understanding - due to tighter enforcement and greater dole/ave wage disparity).

Rubbish...there are still a lot of 'professional welfare recipients' out there.
This "if you don't look for work you don't get the dole" is garbage because I know people who are on the dole and have been 'looking' for bloody forever.
There is a difference between genuine looking and 'looking' just to fulfil the criteria knowing full well they have no chance to get the job.

And in the case of fruit picking.....I don't care if the unemployment rate is low and the amount of people actually bludging is lower than in previous years....the fact still remains:
While there are able-bodied unemployed Aussies out there that can work then these are the people who should be fruit-picking.

2) cost of forced locations ain't cheap. And then you have the cost of accomodation subsidization. And then you have the cost of bringing a lot of these places up to code (I'm not sure if you have seen the accomadation at some pickers - I did in one of my former gigs - some are a joke).

Cost of flying in immigrants for a start...with minimum (if any at all) english language skills [add interpreters to the bill]....cultural differences [see a previous post of mine about the problems NZ have faced with the Islanders in their workers-cheme].....and then add the stuff you talk about here and I still reckon on every front that having Aussies do the job would be monetarily cheaper than flying in people.
And if you follow my scheme as well then you save money on welfare which could go back into helping the costs associated with relocating Aussies from their point of origin to where they would be required to work.

One side issue that will be interesting in all of this will be wages. The NT proposal may not even go ahead, because the unions are insisting any foreign workers must receive equivalent minimum wages to an Australian citizen. Growers have been strangley quiet on this, which is not suprising. Growers have been a key area of employment for illegal workers, and this is because the pressure on their margins means under priced labour is all they can afford. Bring in short term foreign labour, it will be closely scrutinized and monitored (because of the Liverpools out there convinced they are part of a communist/Muslim illegal invasion), and to ensure they are not under-cutting local labour. If they accept, this will make their fruit less competitive against the demands of Coles and Woolies, making imports even more attractive.

Whether people are imported in to work or unemployed Aussies are relocated to do the work.....the unions will still be sticking their noses in and putting pressure on people to be paid what they are legally entitled to.
I have no problem with this.
Other industries are expected to have wages and conditions up to standard and the fruit-picking/farming industry should be no different.
Also, other industries have the same pressures of paying these wages and conditions and still being globally competitive so why should the farming sector be protected?

Your policy will have the same effect, but even more so. The short term worker option targets labour short falls, be they skilled or unskilled. Skilled labour shortages often tend to be due to lack of trained people, so they still command decent wages. Your scheme is almost completely focused on the unskilled market, where wages are at an absolute minimum.

Yes....that is correct!

I can understand areas of employment where they may have to import people who are experts in a particular field.
This is SKILLED labour and for whatever reason, we may not have people here who could do the job as well as someone from overseas.
I can cope with this.

However, what gives me the *smile* is when we start bringing in people from overseas who are no better skilled at what Australians can provide....and fruit-picking being an UNSKILLED role means that any physical-able person can do it....and I am sure the Aussies here are no lesser able-bodied to pick fruit than their Islander counterparts.

 

[Tiger74]

Cost of flying in immigrants for a start...with minimum (if any at all) english language skills [add interpreters to the bill]....cultural differences [see a previous post of mine about the problems NZ have faced with the Islanders in their workers-cheme].....and then add the stuff you talk about here and I still reckon on every front that having Aussies do the job would be monetarily cheaper than flying in people.
And if you follow my scheme as well then you save money on welfare which could go back into helping the costs associated with relocating Aussies from their point of origin to where they would be required to work.

Big difference is the Govt pay under your scheme, the person in question pays under this.

 

[Liverpool]

Big difference is the Govt pay under your scheme, the person in question pays under this.

What the Government pays under my scheme they get back by not paying welfare.

Secondly, are you telling me the unemployed Islander is going to pay to come here?
Or am I misreading your above line?

 

[Tiger74]

What the Government pays under my scheme they get back by not paying welfare.

Secondly, are you telling me the unemployed Islander is going to pay to come here?
Or am I misreading your above line?

Rubbish, they will be back on welfare when the short term gig is over, and you have to pay for flights and subsidized accomodation.

people come here because the wages here are better than there. They already have a gig, they just want a better paying one, even if its short term.

The only other way is if the employer pays, and thats like any commerical transaction, if they want to do it, yay. Just as long as the taxpayer doesn't.

 

[Liverpool]

Rubbish, they will be back on welfare when the short term gig is over, and you have to pay for flights and subsidized accomodation.

It's not rubbish at all....if they are working in the fields picking fruit and earning money that way then they won't be on welfare.
This money could then be used for the initial relocation and transport back again.

And as for going back onto welfare once the gig is over....yes, so what?
If we bring in immigrants the Aussie dole recipients will be on the dole while the immigrants pick the fruit and still on the dole when the immigrants go back anyway.

At least with my method you are giving some of them hope to earn some money and to maybe give them a kickstart when they get back home...or maybe even give them skills to get them interested in a career within thsi industry.
It has to be better than importing workers, training them, and then sending them back home as well as our money also....all the while paying welfare for Aussies back in their towns.

And as for the accommodation being subsidized...well, the immigrants coming here are getting their accommodation paid for, as well as in many cases medical insurance and visas.
You only need to look at the NZ model that the Chairman is copying to see that.

people come here because the wages here are better than there. They already have a gig, they just want a better paying one, even if its short term.

No, they are unemployed Islanders.

The only other way is if the employer pays, and thats like any commerical transaction, if they want to do it, yay. Just as long as the taxpayer doesn't.

Half the cost of airfares will be borne by the employer, and rules guarantee the guest workers would earn the same wages as locals.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/asiapacific/news/article_1425763.php/Guest_worker_scheme_divides_Australians__Feature_

...take other things into account such as visas, medical insurance, food/drink, and accommodation....as well as paying for interpreters for these people who, mostly likely, have a poor standard of education and don't have a large grasp of English....and cultural differences.


This is the part that sh!ts me and proves what I am on about....that if people want a job, they will get one, and for anyone on welfare after 12 months...then they are simply not looking hard enough or have no intention to work unless it is the *smile*ing perfect career:


Unemployment is at a 30-year low of 5 per cent, and with well-paid jobs going begging in the booming mining sector, farmers said they can't get workers. In one estimate, farmers need 100,000 extra hands.
Foreign Minister Stephen Smith said locals will always be preferred over foreigners and that no one will be muscled out of the labour market by foreigners.
'If someone is out there who doesn't have a job, if they are interested in getting a job, it seems to me there are plenty of opportunities in the horticultural industry on a seasonal basis,' he said.
Close to 500,000 Australians are out of work. Most are on welfare and said they find it impossible to get a job for one reason or another.


So let me get this straight....we have 500,000 Aussies with no job....and farmers needing 100,000 workers....and what do we do to solve this?
Bring in unemployed Islanders to do the job! :

 

[Tiger74]

It's not rubbish at all....if they are working in the fields picking fruit and earning money that way then they won't be on welfare.
This money could then be used for the initial relocation and transport back again.

And as for going back onto welfare once the gig is over....yes, so what?
If we bring in immigrants the Aussie dole recipients will be on the dole while the immigrants pick the fruit and still on the dole when the immigrants go back anyway.

At least with my method you are giving some of them hope to earn some money and to maybe give them a kickstart when they get back home...or maybe even give them skills to get them interested in a career within thsi industry.
It has to be better than importing workers, training them, and then sending them back home as well as our money also....all the while paying welfare for Aussies back in their towns.

And as for the accommodation being subsidized...well, the immigrants coming here are getting their accommodation paid for, as well as in many cases medical insurance and visas.
You only need to look at the NZ model that the Chairman is copying to see that.

No, they are unemployed Islanders.

Half the cost of airfares will be borne by the employer, and rules guarantee the guest workers would earn the same wages as locals.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/asiapacific/news/article_1425763.php/Guest_worker_scheme_divides_Australians__Feature_

...take other things into account such as visas, medical insurance, food/drink, and accommodation....as well as paying for interpreters for these people who, mostly likely, have a poor standard of education and don't have a large grasp of English....and cultural differences.


This is the part that sh!ts me and proves what I am on about....that if people want a job, they will get one, and for anyone on welfare after 12 months...then they are simply not looking hard enough or have no intention to work unless it is the *smile*ing perfect career:


Unemployment is at a 30-year low of 5 per cent, and with well-paid jobs going begging in the booming mining sector, farmers said they can't get workers. In one estimate, farmers need 100,000 extra hands.
Foreign Minister Stephen Smith said locals will always be preferred over foreigners and that no one will be muscled out of the labour market by foreigners.
'If someone is out there who doesn't have a job, if they are interested in getting a job, it seems to me there are plenty of opportunities in the horticultural industry on a seasonal basis,' he said.
Close to 500,000 Australians are out of work. Most are on welfare and said they find it impossible to get a job for one reason or another.


So let me get this straight....we have 500,000 Aussies with no job....and farmers needing 100,000 workers....and what do we do to solve this?
Bring in unemployed Islanders to do the job! :

I still think your assumptions on cost are incredibly naive, and you obviously have minimal to no contact with the horticulture industries, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Rosy]

Fruit picking can be physically demanding work in extreme conditions. It requires a certain level of fitness, strength and good health. It's way too simplistic to suggest those on the dole should be forced to relocate and work in the field. It wouldn't necessarily be in the farmers' best interests either.

 

[Liverpool]

I still think your assumptions on cost are incredibly naive, and you obviously have minimal to no contact with the horticulture industries, so we will just have to agree to disagree.

I agree with you that we have different opinions on this and maybe the 'agree to disagree' line is suited to us in this debate.

I don't think you need to have any horticultural experience with what I am saying because it really doesn't matter what the industry is because if the role is UNSKILLED labour then what does it matter?
Unskilled labour is something anybody can do if they are physically able to.....and I think that unemployment benefits are given to people who are supposedly actively looking for a job, then they would be suited to this type of unskilled labour in the meantime.
If they are physically unable to do this kind of work then maybe surely they would be on a pension or disability allowance anyway?

Fruit picking can be physically demanding work in extreme conditions. It requires a certain level of fitness, strength and good health. It's way too simplistic to suggest those on the dole should be forced to relocate and work in the field. It wouldn't necessarily be in the farmers' best interests either.

Who is to say that the Islanders arriving here are up to the standard required anyway?
Gee...this is an industry that has been using half-drunk backpackers and skinny little illegal Vietnamese for years....so don't tell me all of a sudden we're after people with the fitness of an AFL footballer to do these jobs...


What I also want to say is that I commend the Islanders keen on coming here to work for showing the initiative and commitment to earn some money, improve their livelihood, and help support their families back home.
This shows what a disgrace it is when we have 500,000 unemployed people on welfare here yet 100,000 farm-hand vacancies.
It shows that the long-term unemployed people here aren't that keen to actually work for their money and are just kicking back waiting for their 'dream job' to tap them on the shoulder as if they are too good to do this kind of work.
It shows how pitiful our society has become when people virtually defend people sitting on unemployment benefits for years..."oh, he is looking and can't find anything"....*smile*! 100,000 vacant farm-hand jobs people...thats 20% of the entire unemployment numbers in Australia.
And it finally shows what a poor Government we have (and had) for allowing long-termed unemployed to continue along in their little welfare-sapping pathetic lives unabated while turning to importing workers in to do this kind of work.

So the title of this thread is quite apt after all.

 

[1eyedtiger]

If you're so concerned about the farmers finding fruit pickers and the unemployed sitting around on taxpayer funded holidays, why don't you quit your job and go fruit picking? Your job can then be taken by someone who is currently unemployed.

 

[Rosy]

....so don't tell me all of a sudden we're after people with the fitness of an AFL footballer to do these jobs... 

I had no intentions of telling you that so don't tell me what not to tell you.

I certainly wouldn't want unsuitable and unenthused people being forced to work on our farm or lose the dole..  Much prefer someone working by virtue of  their own initiative and with some skills in the job into the bargain.

 

[Liverpool]

If you're so concerned about the farmers finding fruit pickers and the unemployed sitting around on taxpayer funded holidays, why don't you quit your job and go fruit picking? Your job can then be taken by someone who is currently unemployed.

I'm afraid we are talking about unskilled labour and while I would have no problem fitting the criteria of a fruit-picker, I am afraid the long-term unemployed layabouts would find it difficult to showcase the skills required to do my job....
For a start...having to get out of bed before 10am would be quite a challenge for the majority of them... :hihi

I had no intentions of telling you that so don't tell me what not to tell you.

If you didn't have the intentions then I was quite right to tell you not to tell me and you didn't.... :hihi

I certainly wouldn't want unsuitable and unenthused people being forced to work on our farm or lose the dole.. Much prefer someone working by virtue of their own initiative and with some skills in the job into the bargain.

I am sure the idea of having their welfare cut would provide some sudden enthusiasm to try fruit-picking....and as the saying goes 'beggars can't be choosers' so the farmers are the last people to start moaning about the type of people they get thrusted upon them to help them when they are paying very minimum wages (if that) to people.