Team Tasmania a.k.a The Tassie Maps

[Redford]

Reading between the lines sounds like the AFL want Tassie to stop funding North and Hawthorn. Which ever one falls over, they get that club.

They want them to stop funding Hawthorn.

A few years ago I organised through some contacts, Hawthorn's GM of Tasmanian Football Ops to speak at a conference my company was holding in Launceston. He was fantastic. Spoke for about 2 hours.

Amongst many other things, he went through all the economics of operating a team in the AFL, the socio-economic difficulties in Tasmania and strategies the AFL was running against Hawthorn and why and how. It was super interesting.

Basically, the AFL sees North in much more need of funding by Tasmania and wanted them to be the primary, or sole, AFL focus in Tasmania - not Hawthorn.

 

[eZyT]

Relocating North is a no brainer...irrelevant team in Melb but have some good history, good jumper, good mascot. As much as I'm wedded to The Maps, The Tassie Roos has a nice ring to it.

except no Tasmanians will support them.

Tassie needs and deserves a new side that they can support.

I like how the tasasie premier isn't taking any *smile* from McLachlan.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Not even the AFL would throw away hundreds of millions of dollars just to say that.

Sorry. Think you misunderstood me slightly. Or my articulation wasn’t quite right.

Don’t need to actually do it in practice. What I meant was, trying to engineer a situation whereby Tasmania is backed into a corner where a relocated team is the only option. Business case is done for the relocated team with an already known outcome that not enough people will support it.

 

[mrposhman]

I think a league of 20 teams makes sense.

Play each other once, so 19 rounds of 10 games each = 190 games
That compares to our current 23 rounds of 198 games (20 rounds of 9 games, and 3 rounds of 6 games).

You can make up those 8 games relatively easily. An extra couple of finals games as TBR showed (for those that finish 7-10).

6 games can come from somewhere else, whether they are exhibition State of Origin or something like that. You could actually create a proper State of Origin series if you did. A 4 week round robin could work, VIC, SA, WA and the Allies (NSW, QLD and TAS). 6 round robin games over 3 weeks, top 2 play off in the final in week 4. Adds 7 games to the calendar.

We currently play off over 23 rounds, 1 bye, then 3 weeks of finals. 27 weeks of the year.

It could be played over 19 rounds, 4 weeks of finals and 4 weeks for SOO = 27 weeks of the year and you end up with more games to be streamed.

Current is 198 games plus 9 finals so 207 games for the season
Above would be 190 games plus 11 finals plus 7 SOO games, so 208 games for the season.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

So, on the united front, given the 30 year effort to have a strong statewide league down there has been an unmitigated disaster - and in my opinion the root cause of why football has deteriorated so badly in the state - how do you see the very very strong regional bias or parochialism working where having united support for a Tasmanian AFL team is concerned ?

The team has to be based somewhere - most likely Hobart - so how will people from the North and North West embrace the team ? Will they travel 1.5 to 3 hours in the car to go and watch a Tasmanian team based in Hobart and follow and support them ? Or will it all be too hard like its been for them and their local teams in the statewide league ? It is a very very decentralised 500k population down there.

The State league failed partly for the reasons you suggest. But I think that is too simplistic.

The bigger contribution was that it was established just as the VFL/AFL was moving into its modern era of corporatising to saturated media coverage and undisputed primacy.

Look at what has happened to every state and country league around the country in this modern era. Tasmanian football was trying to build a state league during this era. Destined to fail. I don’t think you could even build the WAFL or SANFL if they had started their year zero in the modern AFL era. They only bumble along just surviving because of legacy of these competitions.

And a whole heap of societal factors are killing regional sport more generally. Seven day working week, so time poor society (lack of volunteers, participants and audience). Other recreational pursuits like sitting on one’s posterior on electronic devices, or watching TV - which then feeds into the media strategy of the modern AFL.

Plus, as I saw in another post on another topic. The AFL doesn’t believe in the same values as a sport like American football which respects the cultural and traditional synergies between the various levels of the game.

In American football, high school football has a traditional slot, as does college football, with the pros then finding a different slot. They don’t steal each other’s thunder. So all levels are supported to survive and thrive in their own relative sphere. High school and college football are not only a means to an end to provide upper levels with talent. They are also an end in themselves for the communities that support them. And the NFL understands the importance of keeping this in tact for the overall cultural health of the game.

The AFL on the other hand takes an approach where they take absolute primacy. All other competition becomes essentially a soulless means to an end serving the AFL and is eviscerated into a scorched cultural void. And taking all this into account, our local game has been gutted along with the rest of the country, but then don’t have an AFL team to keep interest in the State.

The Tasmanian government and people around the game have realised this reality, that this is the way the game has gone. You can’t fight it anymore, so may as well join them. In a way, think of it as a last ditch attempt to save the game in the state. Or face further decline to simply being a niche sport like Rugby Union is in the southern states.

As to where games will be played. There’s always been a fingers in ears, saying “lalala” reaction to suggesting that games will need to be split between Launceston and Hobart. Nearly like it was cultural cringe to admit this reality (like we didn’t want to admit Tasmania has some unique quirks that make us a bit different and bring further ridicule). People have now come to terms with the fact that the unique dynamics of Tasmania mean that this simply will be a given for any Tasmanian AFL team. Games wil be played at both venues. And as a result you will have a united front.

 

[AngryAnt]

Sorry. Think you misunderstood me slightly. Or my articulation wasn’t quite right.

Don’t need to actually do it in practice. What I meant was, trying to engineer a situation whereby Tasmania is backed into a corner where a relocated team is the only option. Business case is done for the relocated team with an already known outcome that not enough people will support it.

No problem, I should read more carefully PT, you are a subtle man.

Yeah, a much better way is to make sure it fails at the first hurdle. In corporate-land you always know the outcome of the report when you commission it.

 

[DavidSSS]

What is with the AFL? Just watching the news today and who did the review - Colin Carter, former President of, guess which football club? Geelong.

Do they ever get anyone from any other club?

By the way, great post Mr Panthera. The way the AFL just squashes any other level of the game is arrant stupidity.

DS

 

[BrisTiger24]

except no Tasmanians will support them.

Tassie needs and deserves a new side that they can support.

I like how the tasasie premier isn't taking any *smile* from McLachlan.

Rubbish. Hasn't stopped Sydney supporting the Swans (when they win). If the team is called Tassie and they play all their home games in Tassie, I have no doubt Tasmanians will follow them

 

[Redford]

The State league failed partly for the reasons you suggest. But I think that is too simplistic.

The bigger contribution was that it was established just as the VFL/AFL was moving into its modern era of corporatising to saturated media coverage and undisputed primacy.

Look at what has happened to every state and country league around the country in this modern era. Tasmanian football was trying to build a state league during this era. Destined to fail. I don’t think you could even build the WAFL or SANFL if they had started their year zero in the modern AFL era.

And a whole heap of societal factors are killing regional sport more generally. Seven day working week, so time poor society (lack of volunteers, participants and audience). Other recreational pursuits like sitting on one’s posterior on electronic devices, or watching TV - which then feeds into the media strategy of the modern AFL.

Plus, as I saw in another post on another topic. The AFL doesn’t believe in the same values as a sport like American football which respects the cultural and traditional synergies between the various levels of the game.

In American football, high school football has a traditional slot, as does college football, with the pros then finding a different slot. They don’t steal each other’s thunder. So all levels are supported to survive and thrive in their own relative sphere. High school and college football are not only a means to an end to provide upper levels with talent. They are also an end in themselves for the communities that support them. And the NFL understands the importance of keeping this in tact for the overall cultural health of the game.

The AFL on the other hand takes an approach where they take absolute primacy. All other competition becomes essentially a soulless means to an end serving the AFL and is eviscerated into a scorched cultural void. And taking all this into account, our local game has been gutted along with the rest of the country, but then don’t have an AFL team to keep interest in the State.

The Tasmanian government and people around the game have realised this reality, that this is the way the game has gone. You can’t fight it anymore, so may as well join them. In a way, think of it as a last ditch attempt to save the game in the state. Or face further decline to simply being a niche sport like Rugby Union is in the southern states.

As to where games will be played. There’s always been a fingers in ears, saying “lalala” reaction to suggesting that games will need to be split between Launceston and Hobart. Nearly like it was cultural cringe to admit this reality. People have come to terms with the fact that the unique dynamics of Tasmania mean that this simply will be a given for any Tasmanian AFL team. And as a result you will have a United front.

I agree with the corporate animal basis of your post but not on the reasons why the statewide league has been such a disaster.

The statewide league started in 1986. 4 years before the AFL got up and running. The very first year it started, crowds at football dropped off a cliff and people started losing interest quickly in their droves. I know this because I played in it for years. Football’s never recovered down there since.

Everyone - especially players - knew it was destined for failure because of the strong local associations. Nobody wanted to travel 3.5 hours from Devonport to see the Blues play Clarence in Hobart. They couldn’t care less. Likewise Clarence people werent going to go to Devonport. They wanted to see Clarence play Glenorchy. And Devonport fans were more interested in them playing Burnie or Ulverstone or whomever.

This really really strong local geographical association in such a decentralised state is a huge issue in amongst a bunch of others. It still is knowing some of the senior administrators down there eg Scott Wade and co.

I obviously have strong ties back there - lots of friends etc - and go back there for work on occasion. Nearly all of them would like a team in Tasmania but aren’t certain if it would be successful. And interestingly each one of them, to a tee, say they’ll still follow their respective AFL allegiances way before any Tasmanian team - although their kids may think differently.

I’d like a team in Tasmania and for it to be successful but I think there’s a lot of naivety associated with it. There’s a host of issues to overcome. Anyway, like I said, if Carter thinks it could work who am I to argue. I’d love to see that report !

 

[Panthera Tigris]

I agree with the corporate animal basis of your post but not on the reasons why the statewide league has been such a disaster.

The statewide league started in 1986. 4 years before the AFL got up and running. The very first year it started, crowds at football dropped off a cliff and people started losing interest quickly in their droves. I know this because I played in it for years. Football’s never recovered down there since.

Everyone - especially players - knew it was destined for failure because of the strong local associations. Nobody wanted to travel 3.5 hours from Devonport to see the Blues play Clarence in Hobart. They couldn’t care less. Likewise Clarence people werent going to go to Devonport. They wanted to see Clarence play Glenorchy. And Devonport fans were more interested in them playing Burnie or Ulverstone or whomever.

This really really strong local geographical association in such a decentralised state is a huge issue in amongst a bunch of others. It still is knowing some of the senior administrators down there eg Scott Wade and co.

I obviously have strong ties back there - lots of friends etc - and go back there for work on occasion. Nearly all of them would like a team in Tasmania but aren’t certain if it would be successful. And interestingly each one of them, to a tee, say they’ll still follow their respective AFL allegiances way before any Tasmanian team - although their kids may think differently.

I’d like a team in Tasmania and for it to be successful but I think there’s a lot of naivety associated with it. There’s a host of issues to overcome. Anyway, like I said, if Carter thinks it could work who am I to argue. I’d love to see that report !

I think sometimes people look at the past through rose coloured glasses. I often heard the old timers talk about when they went to the TANFL, NTFA, NWFU in the 1970s and the grounds were “packed to the rafters every week, people lined up down the street every week.” Etc. So out of interest I looked at the crowd figures in that era. Sure, there were one or two feature matches during each season which had pretty decent crowds. But we’re not talking “packed to the rafters”. It might have been 6-7k in a ground that held 20-25k. And finals were well attended. 3-6k in the opening week, maybe 9k in the Prelims, then 23-28k for a GF. But it wasn’t quite what people suggest in the urban legends. And there were plenty of matches with only 700-1200 attending. Even the year Clarence vs Glenorchy set a record crowd in the 1979 GF. Apart from finals, crowds aren’t Herculean by any measure.

And if you look at the crowd figures in the first state league. Crowd figures in around 1986-87 I have looked at were fairly similar to the years immediately proceeding it. Perhaps a bit of a drop off in the 1-2 feature matches and the finals. But the roster matches on average were not terribly lower. Falls off a cliff around 1992 onwards. I think footy outside of the VFL (which became the AFL only 4 years later) had already began the initial stages of its decline in the mid to late 1980s. The Tasmanian 1989-1991 State of Origin sides were the last generation created before the impending decline.

My view although different, probably arrives at a similar result to you. I just wonder if we have already gone past the point of no return in the decline of the game in the state.

When there was a serious push for a team in the early 1990s the game was hugely prominent still as an ingrained part of the hearts, minds and culture of the state. That was the time to do it and get a team entrenched. But other circumstances (economic circumstances, lack of a stadium in Launceston and Hobart etc) didn’t work at that stage.

Now those other factors work better in terms of economics and facilities, but the game just doesn’t have the vigour of following it had 20-30 years ago as an entrenched part of grass roots community life. Like I say, I read it as a last ditch attempt to save the game down here. But maybe we just need to let it go, cut our losses and put those resources into other sporting pursuits.

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

They’re expanding AFLW again so they’re obviously loaded.

Move the Suns and be done with it.

 

[Redford]

I think sometimes people look at the past through rose coloured glasses. I often heard the old timers talk about when they went to the TANFL, NTFA, NWFU in the 1970s and the grounds were “packed to the rafters every week, people lined up down the street every week.” Etc. So out of interest I looked at the crowd figures in that era. Sure, there were one or two feature matches during each season which had pretty decent crowds. But we’re not talking “packed to the rafters”. It might have been 6-7k in a ground that held 20-25k. And finals were well attended. 3-6k in the opening week, maybe 9k in the Prelims, then 23-28k for a GF. But it wasn’t quite what people suggest in the urban legends. And there were plenty of matches with only 800-1200 attending. Even the year Clarence vs Glenorchy set a record crowd in the 1979 GF. Apart from finals, crowds aren’t Herculean by any measure.

And if you look at the crowd figures in the first state league. Crowd figures in around 1986-87 I have looked at were fairly similar to the years immediately proceeding it. Perhaps a bit of a drop off in the 1-2 feature matches and the finals. But the roster matches on average were not terribly lower. Falls off a cliff around 1992 onwards. I think footy outside of the VFL (which became the AFL only 4 years later) had already began the initial stages of its decline in the mid to late 1980s. The Tasmanian 1989-1991 State of Origin sides were the last generation created before the impending decline.

My view although different, probably arrives at a similar result to you. I just wonder if we have already gone past the point of no return in the decline of the game in the state.

When there was a serious push for a team in the early 1990s the game was hugely prominent still as an ingrained part of the hearts, minds and culture of the state. That was the time to do it and get a team entrenched. But other circumstances (economic circumstances, lack of a stadium in Launceston and Hobart etc) didn’t work at that stage.

Now those other factors work better in terms of economics and facilities, but the game just doesn’t have the vigour of following it had 20-30 years ago as an entrenched part of grass roots community life. Like I say, I read it as a last ditch attempt to save the game down here. But maybe we just need to let it go, cut our losses and put those resources into other sporting pursuits.

Really, that’s a poor retro vision. The fact of the matter is that crowds and football popularity, was infinitely stronger pre statewide league v post, and importantly, that it in ensuing post years it got even worse to the point of almost completel disintegration. The post and current model of football in Tasmania has been an utter failure in comparison with the old TFL, NTFA and NWFU comps. That is fact PT.

Nothing to do with rose coloured glasses. Pure fact. Probably a bit disrespectful to the strength of the past as well, and all the fantastic footballers it produced.

And it is so bad now, you’ve even conceded that it might be beyond recovery, even with an AFL team. I dunno about that, but I know it’ll be a challenge one way or another for a bunch of reasons.

 

[Baloo]

Build it and they will come.

MLB GAME | Field of Dreams

www.fieldofdreamsmoviesite.com

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Really, that’s a poor retro vision. The fact of the matter is that crowds and football popularity, was infinitely stronger pre statewide league v post, and importantly, that it in ensuing post years it got even worse to the point of almost completel disintegration. The post and current model of football in Tasmania has been an utter failure in comparison with the old TFL, NTFA and NWFU comps. That is fact PT.

Nothing to do with rose coloured glasses. Pure fact. Probably a bit disrespectful to the strength of the past as well, and all the fantastic footballers it produced.

And it is so bad now, you’ve even conceded that it might be beyond recovery, even with an AFL team. I dunno about that, but I know it’ll be a challenge one way or another for a bunch of reasons.

I just think you’re looking at one factor too abstractly. That’s all. I think you are right to suggest the regional quirks of Tasmania did have an influence. But what I am pointing out is that there is more to the overall holistic dynamics during the past 30 years. I actually agreed with you that the game was great previously. Hence my reference to the strong SOO teams put in the park, as a testament to the past strength of the game. So I find it a particularly odd claim that I was being disrespectful. I didn’t deny any fact whatsoever.

And I will add, I have looked at actual FACTS in terms of crowd figures from the various eras to get a deeper understanding of the decline of the game down here. Rather than just relying on anecdotes.

The decline is multifaceted and probably would have occurred whether we went to State League footy or not. just a matter to what degree, which none of us will ever know unless we had a time machine to change those sliding door moments.

As an extra point. One of the biggest issues facing north west coast footy (like a lot of country leagues) is simple demographics being against the region.

 

[Redford]

I just think you’re looking at one factor too abstractly. That’s all. I think you are right to suggest the regional quirks of Tasmania did have an influence. But what I am pointing out is that there is more to the overall holistic dynamics during the past 30 years. I actually agreed with you that the game was great previously. Hence my reference to the strong SOO teams put in the park, as a testament to the past strength of the game. So I find it a particularly odd claim that I was being disrespectful. I didn’t deny any fact whatsoever.

And I will add, I have looked at actual FACTS in terms of crowd figures from the various eras to get a deeper understanding of the decline of the game down here. Rather than just relying on anecdotes.

Anecdotes ? When in the last 30 years have regular season games in the statewide league era dragged 7k and 10k crowds like old Clarence v Glenorchy games ? 3k on a poor day. Or 21,000 to a GF ? Or across the broad to the same degree ? When ?

Anecdotes ? What are you talking about ? Thats not anecdotes. That’s what actually happened …and doesn’t happen now and hasn’t happened for a long long time.

Rose coloured glasses. Gee, I’d wear those glasses over the 200 max people attending a game nowadays under a new age “holistic” view.

Like they say, if history teaches you nothing….

 

[Panthera Tigris]

Anecdotes ? When in the last 30 years have regular season games in the statewide league era dragged 7k and 10k crowds like old Clarence v Glenorchy games ? 3k on a poor day. Or 21,000 to a GF ? Or across the broad to the same degree ? When ?

Anecdotes ? What are you talking about ? That’s what actually happened …and doesn’t happen now and hasn’t happened for a long long time. The FACTS !

Rose coloured glasses. Gee, I’d wear those glasses over the 200 people attending a game nowadays under a new age “holistic” view.

Like they say, if history teaches you nothing….

The crowds in the early to mid 1980s were not that much different than the mid to late 1980s in the first few years of the state league. The figures are all there to trawl through. It was a gradual trend that was already in its early stages by the time the state league came into existence and it just continued during the late 1980s.

By the early 1990s (around 1992) it began an even steeper decline to oblivion. But so too did every state league around Australia if we look at those figures too.

 

[jb03]

Might be us relocating after tonight.

 

[Redford]

The crowds in the early 1980s were not that much different than the mid to late 1980s in the first few years of the state league. The figures are all there to trawl through. It was a gradual trend that was already in place by the time the state league came into existence and it just continued during the late 1980s.

By the early 1990s (around 1992) it began an even steeper decline. But so too did every state league around Australia if we look at those figures too.

But how do those other state leagues compare to Tasmania in terms of decline ? Yes the SANFL and WAFL have retracted but Tasmania has completely fallen off a cliff in comparison to them. Tasmania can barely get anyone drafted now.

There’s issues in Tasmania that are unique to it. And disparate geography is definitely one of them. And I’m saying the complete and utter failure of the statewide league is very very good evidence of that by way of comparing old strong local comps and the strength of industry that it produced v the statewide approach that has caused near disintegration.

SANFL - Adelaide based. WAFL - Perth based. But still ticking along and a productive industry. Statewide Tasmania - thousands of kilometres of separation and a complete failure with it.

It’s a very significant issue to manage for any prospective AFL team. Much more than you think.

 

[Panthera Tigris]

But how do those other state leagues compare to Tasmania in terms of decline ? Yes the SANFL and WAFL have retracted but Tasmania has completely fallen off a cliff in comparison to them. Tasmania can barely get anyone drafted now.

There’s issues in Tasmania that are unique to it. And disparate geography is definitely one of them. And I’m saying the complete and utter failure of the statewide league is very very good evidence of that by way of comparing old strong local comps and the strength of industry that it produced v the statewide approach that has caused near disintegration.

SANFL - Adelaide based. WAFL - Perth based. But still ticking along and a productive industry. Statewide Tasmania - thousands of kilometres of separation and a complete failure with it.

It’s a very significant issue to manage for any prospective AFL team. Much more than you think.

Look, I think we are talking at cross purposes.

I inferred all along that the case for a Tasmanian AFL team is marginal (even if I didn’t state that exactly) which I think is what you are saying too.

But I suppose what I was emphasising are some of the elements that are a non-negotiable if we wanted to give it every chance of working (as in a standalone team playing out of both Hobart and Launceston). Any other format has zero chance of working.

We can go off on all other tangents exploring how the game got to where it is now. Again I’m not convinced we’re in total disagreement. Just have a heavier emphasis on different elements to each other.

But the crux of my original argument was talking about the elements that would be needed to give the concept at least a chance of working, rather than guaranteed failure.

 

[Redford]

Look, I think we are talking at cross purposes.

I inferred all along that the case for a Tasmanian AFL team is marginal (even if I didn’t state that exactly) which I think is what you are saying too.

But I suppose what I was emphasising are some of the elements that are a non-negotiable if we wanted to give it every chance of working (as in a standalone team playing out of both Hobart and Launceston). Any other format has zero chance of working.

We can go off on all other tangents exploring how the game got to where it is now. Again I’m not convinced we’re in total disagreement. Just have a heavier emphasis on different elements to each other.

But the crux of my original argument was talking about the elements that would be needed to give the concept at least a chance of working, rather than guaranteed failure.

Yes, agree it is marginal. Much more than flippant interstaters and doofuses like Andy Maher and co understand and who simply roll with “Ah Tassie is a true footy state give em a team mate ! If GC can get one we gotta give Tassie one.” Yeah. Ok.

Again, I’m not averse to them having a team. Just get annoyed at how mandatory people think it is. It has as much risk as the GC and GWS ventures. Anyway if Carter thinks it might work, let’s hear it.

One thing, Tassie’s gonna do a bit of an audition soon with their new NBL team. Let’s see how that goes. Sure it’ll start off ok but 5 years in will be a decent assessment. I’m sure the AFL will be watching very very closely.