Personal and Domestic violence | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Personal and Domestic violence

Sintiger said:
The most difficult part to me of this discussion generally is the whole issue of victim blaming .

I have 2 daughters and I have always talked to them about how they dress, how they act, what they say etc when they are out. That has no relation whatsoever to any blame that may be attached to them should they be involved in any incident. It's not about blaming them if they get some creepy male accosting them it's just that I want them to be safe or as safe as they can be.

The statement that a female may have been safer if her skirt was longer or wasn't showing so much cleavage is a really fine line between recognising that we have sleezebags in our society and some people perceiving that as victim blaming. The fact is she may have been safer but that is not about blaming her for the actions of a male , it's more about recognising a fact.

As I said I find that really difficult to explain to some because some just see me as a victim blamer if I say it.
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There are several different topics going on ITT. You're referring to the "uncovered meat" type of victim-blaming indulged in by an Australian Muslim leader several years ago. That perspective never held any water except with those who are themselves unbalanced. There have always been a certain percentage of creeps about, be they rapists, pedos, flashers, stalkers or whatever.
 
rosy23 said:
You can't possibly know if it "would've helped" or not. Nobody could know that. Might have helped in the fact Luke mightn't have been born but there is no way of knowing what other atrocities could have occurred.

I can't answer your question about the obviously strong woman rekindling a relationship. I wouldn't have a clue what the circumstances and/or feelings were in their situation. I see no point in speculation or judging victims of domestic violence.
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Obviously there is no obligation for you to address the question. I'll try a different tack.

Would it be helpful, do you think, for women to undersstand after the first instance of abuse that it is almost certain to be repeated if not addressed (e.g. via psychological treatment for the offender)? Does that sort of discussion serve any useful purpose, or should women simply expect to be free of abuse from partners who have a history of abusing?
 
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
Obviously there is no obligation for you to address the question. I'll try a different tack.

Would it be helpful, do you think, for women to undersstand after the first instance of abuse that it is almost certain to be repeated if not addressed (e.g. via psychological treatment for the offender)? Does that sort of discussion serve any useful purpose, or should women simply expect to be free of abuse from partners who have a history of abusing?
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I think I did address the question. I just couldn't give an answer to it.

I don't know if abuse is almost certain to be repeated. We only hear of certain cases but I imagine finding yourself capable of abusing another person could possibly be a wake up call to a potential problem and once recognised and addressed it may well not happen again.

I am sure discussion serves a useful purpose in many instances but doubt it would be equally effective for everyone. A lot of the time offenders are very remorseful until something sets off a certain trigger. What do you think about "psychological treatment" for someone who has abused another person?

I think every person should have an expectation of non-abuse whether from family, partners, people thy know, strangers etc. I know it's not reality but it's the way life should be. You seem to be of the opinion that leaving a partner would bring an end to violence. That is far from the case in many circumstances, often when rejection can't be handled and a desire for revenge takes over a sick mind.
 
rosy23 said:
I wonder how much what a woman wears relates to her being abused. I'd be surprised if it was a major factor in physical abuse but reckon it would increase the odds of being perved at and wolf whistles. I certainly never wore short skirts or had exposed cleavage.
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It may or may not be an issue Rosy, I don't know. I just want my girls to take as few risks as they can and be as safe as they can.
 
Sintiger said:
It may or may not be an issue Rosy, I don't know. I just want my girls to take as few risks as they can and be as safe as they can.
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Of course. :)
 
Sintiger said:
The most difficult part to me of this discussion generally is the whole issue of victim blaming .

I have 2 daughters and I have always talked to them about how they dress, how they act, what they say etc when they are out. That has no relation whatsoever to any blame that may be attached to them should they be involved in any incident. It's not about blaming them if they get some creepy male accosting them it's just that I want them to be safe or as safe as they can be.

The statement that a female may have been safer if her skirt was longer or wasn't showing so much cleavage is a really fine line between recognising that we have sleezebags in our society and some people perceiving that as victim blaming. The fact is she may have been safer but that is not about blaming her for the actions of a male , it's more about recognising a fact.

As I said I find that really difficult to explain to some because some just see me as a victim blamer if I say it.
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But do you see where they get it from (the ones calling it victim blaming I mean). Do have sons?.If not do think you would tell them how to dress? Would you spend equal energy on explaning how to behave around girls and being responsible for their own actions. It is not so much "blaming" as focusing on the wrong aspect. As Rosy says the woman's dress rarely has anything to do with it. This is a male problem, mostly, and it is only through being honest about that we can hope to fix it. The numbers are staggering. Blokes need to to be aware of the size of this problem and that they need to be active in combating it. It starts with stopping boys learning that rape is a joke at a young age. While most grow out of it some don't and carry these mysogynistic ideas into adulthood. But honesty is key. Talking about the way women dress or act or why they stay in abusive relationships is missing the point. The problem is blokes.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
The problem is blokes.
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And there's the message.

Probably not the blokes reading this thread. I'm no more prepared to share the blame for violence against women than for Aborigines being over-represented in jail.
 
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
And there's the message.

Probably not the blokes reading this thread. I'm no more prepared to share the blame for violence against women than for Aborigines being over-represented in jail.
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And that's exactly why this conversation is so important. Admitting that it is not a figment of womens imagination does not mean you are to blame. Only that the problem is real and it is not the women who are the problem. They don't need to dress better. Or not get drunk. Or learn to defend themselves. The responsibility lies with us. What we say to our mates. What we teach our sons. How we behave when we are drunk. The apology to the stolen generation didn't implicate current Australians. The failure to be good enough to make health and equality for them a bigger issue than boats does. Same goes for this.
 
LeeToRainesToRoach said:
Obviously there is no obligation for you to address the question. I'll try a different tack.

Would it be helpful, do you think, for women to undersstand after the first instance of abuse that it is almost certain to be repeated if not addressed (e.g. via psychological treatment for the offender)? Does that sort of discussion serve any useful purpose, or should women simply expect to be free of abuse from partners who have a history of abusing?
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Ok considering you didn't reply when I responded to the question above I'll have to take a stab at what you meant.

To hypertheticalise a recent situation. No doubt it's recognisable but I don't want this to be about bias and particular individuals.

A well known player from a very popular football clubs gets drunk when out on the town. He behaves in a threatening way,raising his voice, swearing and hitting a wall near a woman he is angry with. All signs of aggression/ and or personal abuse towards the woman. He is evicted from the premises due to his behaviour.

An extremely well respected person running the club is quoted in the media saying the player in question understands he in someway contributed to the situation (the way it was presented.) by being drunk in a public place, and he's been very distressed by it.

Being drunk isn't the major issue in my opinion. You hear that reason a lot in relation to domestic and personal violence. The bloke is really nice most of the time but sometimes loses it when he has a drink....heard and experienced it many times.

I don't think it does abuse to women (or anyone) any favours by sweeping it under the carpet or ignoring to mention it. Of course it does it no favours to exaggerate the behaviour either. A simple sentence like the player is remorseful for his behaviour (not just being drunk) and they'd work through it with him privately.

There is no doubt the player behaved in a threatening and aggressive way towards the woman. I think it would have been far better to mention the behaviour and discuss and address it than ignore it.

Therefore my answer to your question is I do think discussion/counselling about abuse can serve a "useful purpose. Maybe in many situations catching it early might prevent it happening again one day.
 
rosy23 said:
I think I did address the question. I just couldn't give an answer to it.

I don't know if abuse is almost certain to be repeated. We only hear of certain cases but I imagine finding yourself capable of abusing another person could possibly be a wake up call to a potential problem and once recognised and addressed it may well not happen again.

I am sure discussion serves a useful purpose in many instances but doubt it would be equally effective for everyone. A lot of the time offenders are very remorseful until something sets off a certain trigger. What do you think about "psychological treatment" for someone who has abused another person?

I think every person should have an expectation of non-abuse whether from family, partners, people thy know, strangers etc. I know it's not reality but it's the way life should be. You seem to be of the opinion that leaving a partner would bring an end to violence. That is far from the case in many circumstances, often when rejection can't be handled and a desire for revenge takes over a sick mind.
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Had a mate years ago who was using steroids and in hindsight, a self-obsessed d.ickhead. His partner who had a heart of gold told me she was being physically abused at home, which I'd had no inkling of, and asked for help to convince him to see a counsellor together. There was no way this guy was going to discuss his shortcomings with me or anyone else, so she ended up simply leaving. The bloke was completely distraught for weeks, to the point of being physically ill every day, but the girl had drawn a line and there was no hope of reconciling. (FWIW this bloke had grown up in an abusive environment, hated his father with a passion and swore he would never repeat the behaviour he witnessed at home. But that's exactly what ended up happening...)

And so we have drifted onto the subject of men with mental issues. Again, I insist this becomes obvious to the partner at some stage, even if the nature of the disorder is unclear. If the partner provides support and gently points out there is a problem and things need to change, and they don't... isn't persevering in the hope the problem resolves itself a form of the oft-cited definition of insanity?

As for genuinely sick, violent, possessive, vengeful individuals - they say not to walk away from a psychopath, run. Women in such situations are in serious trouble and need assistance (however let's not pretend they are the norm). Again, I think the knowledge to recognise certain traits early on would be of benefit.
 
Of course what you say is true in an ideal world L2. Sounds like your friend accepted the decision albeit not easily. Unfortunately fact is it often isn't that simple. What about the rejected violent partner continually showing up on the doorstep? Even from state to state or country to country? What if they threaten to kill you and/or your family? Often abused people aren't in a real stable frame of mind and maybe not capable of making the right decisions, if they even knew what they were. Unfortunately they don't have crystal balls. There often isn't a lot of support. Comments like she must ask for the abuse or even ignoring it are common. That is why I am so passionate about comments in my post above. I can't see how anyone could disagree with me. If anyone does I am interested to know why.
 
rosy23 said:
Of course what you say is true in an ideal world L2. Sounds like your friend accepted the decision albeit not easily. Unfortunately fact is it often isn't that simple. What about the rejected violent partner continually showing up on the doorstep? Even from state to state or country to country? What if they threaten to kill you and/or your family? Often abused people aren't in a real stable frame of mind and maybe not capable of making the right decisions, if they even knew what they were. Unfortunately they don't have crystal balls. There often isn't a lot of support. Comments like she must ask for the abuse or even ignoring it are common. That is why I am so passionate about comments in my post above. I can't see how anyone could disagree with me. If anyone does I am interested to know why.
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No amount of "men need to change" diatribe will have currency at that obsessive end of the spectrum. But otherwise I agree with you totally.
 
Domestic Violence is not always "physical". I t can often be emotional manipulation, which can cause a massive amount of harm to the victim.
This is often overlooked when DV is being discussed. The victim can be female, male or a child.
"Physical" DV is mainly but not exclusively a "male" issue, IE men are the main perpetrators.
Whilst "Emotional" DV has a higher percentage of female perpetrators than the "physical", males still provide the highest percentage in this category as well.

The current levels of DV are quite alarming & cause me concern for the effect it will have on future generations.
 
TT33 said:
Domestic Violence is not always "physical". I t can often be emotional manipulation, which can cause a massive amount of harm to the victim.
This is often overlooked when DV is being discussed. The victim can be female, male or a child.
"Physical" DV is mainly but not exclusively a "male" issue, IE men are the main perpetrators.
Whilst "Emotional" DV has a higher percentage of female perpetrators than the "physical", males still provide the highest percentage in this category as well.

The current levels of DV are quite alarming & cause me concern for the effect it will have on future generations.
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True indeed. My wifes psychotic ex husband was the master ( or so I thought until I read that its all too common).

He cut my wife ( she wasnt my wife then by the way) off financially
Threatened to send explicit photos of her to everyone
Threatened to commit suicide and blame her for "making" him
Rang and texted continuously
Would dispute everything he did in court. Or on many occassion just wouldnt turn up which results in expensive fees for her and just a continuation of the proceeding. Stressful.
Tried to brainwash the daughter into beleiving the mum was the trouble maker.
Drove his car into the kitchen. Yep, drove his 4wd through the weatherboards/frame/plaster etc until it was in the kitchen
And when I came into my wifes life he aassulted me out the front of Dandenong court, threatened to kill me and accused me of disgusting things.

And this is only a small portion of *smile* he did.

Yep, its more than just physical violence.
 
Gee ttim that's a dreadful story, unfortunately it is all too prevalent in this day & age.
I know of a few similar situations amongst people I know. It really shows a disturbing trebd in today's society!!!
 
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