Palestine and Israel

[tigertime2]

Love Bacher the RFC footballer.
If any arab supports Palestine from Sea to Sea they can politely go *smile* themselves.
The question the Arabs wont answer is Why Egypt keeps the southern Gate of the Gaza strip closed?

 

[MD Jazz]

Worth going back to that interview by the ex-French PM, he pointed out that it has morphed into a religious battle. This benefits the Israelis because they are more powerful and have more ability to dictate terms.

As I said many pages ago, the Israelis did not learn the lesson of South Africa. Negotiate with the more moderate leaders or you will end up dealing with the radicals. This is a situation of their own making.

DS

Morphed is the wrong word. It's always been a religious battle. It will always be a religious battle.

 

[Tiger Ghost]

I have refrained from commenting in here because there's clearly a division and whilst theres some constructive arguments most end's up in name calling.

I'm torn on it, Israel absolutely has the right to defend itself and take out Hamas and in war there will always be civilian casualties, Hamas very much only attacked civilians on Oct 7th.
The complete destruction of Gaza doesnt sit to well with me, at what point is blowing up a block of flat's to kill 2 Hamas fighters worth killing 50 civilians?

Hatred breeds hatred, we see on the news Gazan's running babies into hospitals covered in blood but ive seen video's of dead Israelis been kicked, stomped, spat on and have rocks thrown at them by Palestinian kids.

The whole Middle East is a cesspit of State and Non State crazy's, Militias, Rebels and Terrorist Groups, the most peaceful people are probably the goat herder's and you don't trust them either.
More proxy wars going on than we'll ever know about, World Superpowers stirring the hornets nest for there own gains and Religious groups fighting over make believe stuff that is ingrained in them.

The protests absolutely *smile* me to tears sorry Sin and this is not directed at you but how does one choose what to protest for? Is it because its on the news? People have quickly forgotten about Ukraine, The Kurds, The Uyghurs and what about Boko Haram they have displaced 2.5 million people and killed over 300000 people yet i dont see school kids protesting, people blocking the city or hear school teachers threatening to protest.

The only thing we can all be sure of is man has been fighting since the dawn of time over religion and lines drawn on a paper map and it will continue long after we are gone and all for nothing.

 

[tigertime2]

The charge of the Australian Light brigade on Bathsheba was a the modern day catalyst for the overthrow of the Ottoman Turks who had full control of the land loosely called Palestine at the time in the first world war.

Britain had full control over most of the Arab world after the fall of the Axis powers at the end of the First World War.

At the Arab league of Nations meetings in 1920 Britain agreed and ceded control of a lot of the Arab lands back to the Arab inhabitants. Which was a very generous gift in light of the now massive oil wealth in these lands.

The Arab league of Nations as a part of getting their lands back agreed to give sovereignty to Britain the lands which included modern day Israel. Jordan and Iraq.
In 1921 Britain created the modern State of Jordan and gave them independence in the 1940s.

Britain had full legal and sovereign control over the new Palestine and invested heavily into the infrastructure. If you look at photos from the 1920s to the 1940s you see a modern country with modern vehicles. Well dressed people ALL because of the British control.
In the mid to late 1920s Jewish settlers started arriving because of the protection offered by the British. The local Arab inhabitants started persecuting the Jewish settlers. This ultimately led to the creation of the modern State of Israel. If the Arabs would have been more tolerant of the Jewish settlers and allowed simulation then maybe we would see a completely different middle east outcome.

 

[Greenie]

The charge of the Australian Light brigade on Bathsheba was a the modern day catalyst for the overthrow of the Ottoman Turks who had full control of the land loosely called Palestine at the time in the first world war.

Britain had full control over most of the Arab world after the fall of the Axis powers at the end of the First World War.

At the Arab league of Nations meetings in 1920 Britain agreed and ceded control of a lot of the Arab lands back to the Arab inhabitants. Which was a very generous gift in light of the now massive oil wealth in these lands.

The Arab league of Nations as a part of getting their lands back agreed to give sovereignty to Britain the lands which included modern day Israel. Jordan and Iraq.
In 1921 Britain created the modern State of Jordan and gave them independence in the 1940s.

Britain had full legal and sovereign control over the new Palestine and invested heavily into the infrastructure. If you look at photos from the 1920s to the 1940s you see a modern country with modern vehicles. Well dressed people ALL because of the British control.
In the mid to late 1920s Jewish settlers started arriving because of the protection offered by the British. The local Arab inhabitants started persecuting the Jewish settlers. This ultimately led to the creation of the modern State of Israel. If the Arabs would have been more tolerant of the Jewish settlers and allowed simulation then maybe we would see a completely different middle east outcome.

Don't forget the Balfour Declaration, Sykes-Picot, The Arab Revolt, The Armenian Genocide, The Young Turks, Gallipoli, The sick man of Europe, Ataturk, Smyrna. Not so simple.

 

[Nico]

Love Bacher the RFC footballer.
If any arab supports Palestine from Sea to Sea they can politely go *smile* themselves.
The question the Arabs wont answer is Why Egypt keeps the southern Gate of the Gaza strip closed?

I think you'll find the phase is "from the river to the sea".

If Egypt opens the gates to Gazans, they will be doing exactly what Israel wants ie. getting rid of them and not letting them back in so that Israel can get total control over Gaza. There's no way Egypt will do something that helps Israel.

If an Israeli supports further illegal settlements in the West Bank, the "kidnapping" of over 2000 Palestinians under the guise of "administrative detention", and the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza (47% of the population is 18 or under) with water, food, power and medical supplies being withheld, can they also politely go *smile* themselves?

 

[Nico]

Palestine does not have moderate leaders as all leaders are Hamas backed . If you do not back Hamas migrate.

Migrate. Awesome solution TM. The only problem is how do Gazans migrate when they are locked in an outdoor prison, have no passports and nowhere to go? Do you have a spare bedroom or a granny flat not being used? Maybe you can sponsor a Gazan family who are against Hamas.

So how are they to migrate TM?

 

[tigertime2]

Don't forget the Balfour Declaration, Sykes-Picot, The Arab Revolt, The Armenian Genocide, The Young Turks, Gallipoli, The sick man of Europe, Ataturk, Smyrna. Not so simple.

You forgot the Crusades.

 

[tigertime2]

I think you'll find the phase is "from the river to the sea".

If Egypt opens the gates to Gazans, they will be doing exactly what Israel wants ie. getting rid of them and not letting them back in so that Israel can get total control over Gaza. There's no way Egypt will do something that helps Israel.

If an Israeli supports further illegal settlements in the West Bank, the "kidnapping" of over 2000 Palestinians under the guise of "administrative detention", and the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza (47% of the population is 18 or under) with water, food, power and medical supplies being withheld, can they also politely go *smile* themselves?

My point exactly... the Arabs think it's better to lock an entire population of over 2 million of their fellow Arabs into a living hell than allow Israel the land of Gaza!!
However it goes much deeper than this...the people of Gaza of mostly Shi-ite and the Egyptians are Sunny.

 

[Nico]

My point exactly... the Arabs think it's better to lock an entire population of over 2 million of their fellow Arabs into a living hell than allow Israel the land of Gaza!!
However it goes much deeper than this...the people of Gaza of mostly Shi-ite and the Egyptians are Sunny.

Sorry, what do you mean by "the people of Gaza of mostly *smile* and the Egyptians are Sunny".

Oh, and you didn't answer my question.

 

[tigertime2]

Sorry, what do you mean by "the people of Gaza of mostly *smile* and the Egyptians are Sunny".

Oh, and you didn't answer my question.

In 1948 they should have moved all the Arabs out of Israel. while not a great solution it would be much better than what we have now.

 

[tigertime2]

Sorry, what do you mean by "the people of Gaza of mostly *smile* and the Egyptians are Sunny".

Oh, and you didn't answer my question.

The reason the Egyptians do not open the Gate at the southern border is they dont want Shi-ite Muslims (which the Gazan population are) into their 99% Sunny Muslim population

 

[Sintiger]

The reason the Egyptians do not open the Gate at the southern border is they dont want Shi-ite Muslims (which the Gazan population are) into their 99% Sunny Muslim population

So let me get this straight.
Israel is trying to force the Palestinians out of their own territory, a piece of land agreed to by Israel to be part of a greater Palestine in the Oslo accords and a few times since.
However it is Egypt’s fault that Palestinians are being massacred by not letting them escape into Egypt.
Does that about encapsulate it?
Egypt does not have a great love for Palestinians, that is true but that is a side show to this battle which is about land and sovereignty. There are 2 million Palestinians already in Jordon, maybe all the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and in East Jerusalem could just bugger off to jordon and let the Israelis have everything?
Simples

 

[Sintiger]

In 1948 they should have moved all the Arabs out of Israel. while not a great solution it would be much better than what we have now.

Or alternatively not let the Jews in ?

The Jewish state was largely created on Zionist terrorism. There was also Arab terrorism around the late 1940s as well but to deny Israeli terrorism at that time is to deny history.

There are also many stories recorded at the time of Jews being welcomed post war into Palestine. Jews lived peacefully in Palestine at that time and have always done so but not European Jews who were the new arrivals

 

[Sintiger]

The protests absolutely *smile* me to tears sorry Sin and this is not directed at you but how does one choose what to protest for? Is it because its on the news? People have quickly forgotten about Ukraine, The Kurds, The Uyghurs and what about Boko Haram they have displaced 2.5 million people and killed over 300000 people yet i dont see school kids protesting, people blocking the city or hear school teachers threatening to protest.

There is almost universal support in the Australian community for the Ukrainians, the Uyghurs and many others including support from the Australian government.
What would be protesting for ?
The reasons I attended a march for peace for Palestine were 3 things
1. I have personal connections with people who have worked in Gaza as aid workers. I know a lot about life there and how they are treated by the state of Israel, well before the Hamas attack. I also know people who are very close to a person illegally jailed in Israel as a supporter of Hamas and that the charges are ridiculous, pure fiction.
2. Post the Hamas attack there was almost universal condemnation of it, quite rightly as it was horrendous. However I became increasingly uncomfortable that the attack was being used as an excuse to ignore the underlying issue which imo is the failure to implement the Oslo agreement, the blockade of Gaza, the illegal theft of land in the West Bank and the ghetto of East Jerusalem.
The support of the two state agreement is Australian government policy and that was forgotten in the rhetoric.
3. The killing of 12-14,000 people (probably a lot more) is not going to wipe out Hamas, it is just killing now

 

[DavidSSS]

Palestine does not have moderate leaders as all leaders are Hamas backed . If you do not back Hamas migrate.

You like to parade your ignorance don't you?

Have you read nothing?

The West Bank is controlled by Fatah, which Israel have helped Hamas to become a rival to in order to divide and conquer.

The PLO was a secular organisation back when Arafat was leader.

The problem is that Israel never wanted a 2 state solution, they want the Israel on Bibi's map that he took to the UN, from the river to the sea.

DS

 

[Tigaman]

Migrate. Awesome solution TM. The only problem is how do Gazans migrate when they are locked in an outdoor prison, have no passports and nowhere to go? Do you have a spare bedroom or a granny flat not being used? Maybe you can sponsor a Gazan family who are against Hamas.

So how are they to migrate TM?

Their overseas brudders & sisters can sponsor them. No room in the house tents in the backyard. Homesick buy them a camel a couple of mongrel dogs . A porta loo as well.

 

[tigertime2]

So let me get this straight.
Israel is trying to force the Palestinians out of their own territory, a piece of land agreed to by Israel to be part of a greater Palestine in the Oslo accords and a few times since.
However it is Egypt’s fault that Palestinians are being massacred by not letting them escape into Egypt.
Does that about encapsulate it?
Egypt does not have a great love for Palestinians, that is true but that is a side show to this battle which is about land and sovereignty. There are 2 million Palestinians already in Jordon, maybe all the Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and in East Jerusalem could just bugger off to jordon and let the Israelis have everything?
Simples

The Israeli objective is to destroy Hamas. If Israel wanted to take back Gaza and the WestBank they could do it easily. Your argument is biased towards the Arab Propaganda.

It is the Arab argument that Israel wants all the territory back. What I said was that before 1948 they should have resettled the Arabs living in Israel into another Arab State. My opinion only.

The two State solution will never work because the Arab objective is to eliminate Israel.

You make a very insidious point about leaving the 2 million Arabs in Gaza. I would have thought any compassionate mind would see that moving civilians out of harm's way until the Israeli objective of destroying Hamas was completed. Then allow the resettlement of innocent civilians back into Gaza. I don't see any Statement from Israeli Officials that their stated objective is to retake Gaza and eliminate the Arabs living there. Why letter drop warning the citizens to move south if they really wanted to destroy the Arabs living in Gaza?

It is crystal clear it suits Hamas to leave the innocent citizens in Gaza and use them as human shields which is exactly what has happened.

 

[Sintiger]

The Israeli objective is to destroy Hamas. If Israel wanted to take back Gaza and the WestBank they could do it easily. Your argument is biased towards the Arab Propaganda.

It is the Arab argument that Israel wants all the territory back. What I said was that before 1948 they should have resettled the Arabs living in Israel into another Arab State. My opinion only.

The two State solution will never work because the Arab objective is to eliminate Israel.

You make a very insidious point about leaving the 2 million Arabs in Gaza. I would have thought any compassionate mind would see that moving civilians out of harm's way until the Israeli objective of destroying Hamas was completed. Then allow the resettlement of innocent civilians back into Gaza. I don't see any Statement from Israeli Officials that their stated objective is to retake Gaza and eliminate the Arabs living there. Why letter drop warning the citizens to move south if they really wanted to destroy the Arabs living in Gaza?

It is crystal clear it suits Hamas to leave the innocent citizens in Gaza and use them as human shields which is exactly what has happened.

Wow …Arab propaganda lol

I think there is evidence that israel wants to take the whole lot back. Just look at a map and also maybe read the bible. Ie the promised land.

Or have a look at this

https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d

There have also been reports of a document tabled to the Israeli cabinet suggesting Israel’s permanent occupation of Gaza after driving out Palestinians

Seriously, you are arguing that 2.3 million people should be moved from their own homes so that israel can come in and destroy Hamas? They live there, it is their home.

The Arab objective is to eliminate Israel is it ? Wrong !! The PLO, now Fatah which rules the West Bank ( such as it can given Israel keeps taking land) acknowledged Israel’s right to exist in 1993 as part of the Oslo accords. Hamas has stated differently as have a few other groups but the Arab world in general now accepts Israel exists and has for many years now.

In 1948 they should have resettled the palestinians to another Arab state is another statement you made. They did and the remnants of that are Gaza and the West Bank (what is left of it), as well as the enormous palestinian population in Jordon. It was done forcefully for the most part.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2023/11/03/israel-nakba-history-1948/

I totally accept Israel exists and it’s right to do so but so do Palestinians have the right to their own state, something which is enshrined in UN resolutions.

 

[Nico]

Their overseas brudders & sisters can sponsor them. No room in the house tents in the backyard. Homesick buy them a camel a couple of mongrel dogs . A porta loo as well.

You didn't answer my question, how are they going to migrate?